[Archived] Keith Andrews - Rovers Newest Signing

[Al]

I'm well up for the Super Keith chant, I was only thinking of that on my way into work the other morning.

I'm up for that. I can be as sarcastic as the next man.

[Jonnolad]

Sorry then Fife I must be biased then, but apart from running about a lot, I can see no points in his favour except for having the guts (or is it pig headedness) to come here when it was so obvious that none of the supporters wanted him, and that he was bound to get the reception that he inevitably got.

I am sure that his new supporters only see work rate and are not concerened about skill levels.

Don't quote stats to me they are meaningless and don't try to tell me that Sam would have picked him if there had been anybody else.

I hate to tell you this but there was "anyone else" when he picked him - Tugay, Grella, Mokoena, Dunn & Villaneuva were pretty much all available when Sam started with him in the middle. Were you not aware of this? And Ooijer and Simpson at the very least were available at right back as well when he played there. That's just the players who normally play there too - if what you are claiming is correct and Sam would not have picked him if there was anyone else then why didn't he pick any of the other outfield players to play there instead of Andrews then, because he was playing Andrews out of position anyhow? Why play Andrews out of position if he was so poor? It clearly doesn't make any sense if what you are saying is correct.

The absolutely only logical explanation of course is you are bang wrong.

As for being saddled with him - I'm pretty sure Sam could get rid of him like a shot for what we paid for him. But playing him out of position over a whole host of other players doesn't quite strike me as being saddled with him.

As for this comment "that he was bound to get the reception that he inevitably got" - what that's all about? He deserves to get booed by the fans as he came from a lower club? He should have expected the fans to act like spoilt babies because we didn't sign him from Real Madrid? What odd thinking.

[jim mk2]

Objective evidence which backs this up is:

Opta stats

Meaningless. Statistics can be manipulated to suit any argumemt.

World class managers picking him to start in crucial International games

Andy Reid, Darron Whatsisname or Keith Andrews. Wow. Some choice.

Our own manager consistently picking him to start

Injuries and paucity of talent meant there was no one else

Our own manager having enough faith in him to play him well out of position

Ditto

Favourable reports written about him in the press

The LET is favourable to all Rovers players.

Neutral fans picking him as our best player in on-line stats

Stats again? Yawn.

One newspaper short listing him as our player of the season

There are more than 1,000 newspapers in Great Britain. Not very impressive.

So the objective case falls down on every point.

Back to the subjective: Andrews is crap.

Next.

[Al]

I hate to tell you this but there was "anyone else" when he picked him - Tugay, Grella, Mokoena, Dunn & Villaneuva were pretty much all available when Sam started with him in the middle. Were you not aware of this? And Ooijer and Simpson at the very least were available at right back as well when he played there. That's just the players who normally play there too - if what you are claiming is correct and Sam would not have picked him if there was anyone else then why didn't he pick any of the other outfield players to play there instead of Andrews then, because he was playing Andrews out of position anyhow? Why play Andrews out of position if he was so poor? It clearly doesn't make any sense if what you are saying is correct.

The absolutely only logical explanation of course is you are bang wrong.

As for being saddled with him - I'm pretty sure Sam could get rid of him like a shot for what we paid for him. But playing him out of position over a whole host of other players doesn't quite strike me as being saddled with him.

As for this comment "that he was bound to get the reception that he inevitably got" - what that's all about? He deserves to get booed by the fans as he came from a lower club? He should have expected the fans to act like spoilt babies because we didn't sign him from Real Madrid? What odd thinking.

That's rubbish. With the exception of Mokoena who is worse and Villenueva who did not fit that position he was only played in midfield when Tugay, Grella or Dunn were either unfit or half fit. Same goes for Oojier when he was played at full back. By that time Simpson had been written off and not even considered.

Actually Sam is already trying to bring players in to take Andrews place next season.

You know damned well what I meant by the reception he got. He knew very well before he came that the fans had vocally let him know that they did not want him so what else did he expect? Same happened with Fowler.

I never said he deserved it but possibly he did because he knew he was not wanted. Ince only brought him in to try to show who was boss.

[bringdunnback]

How is Andrews crap? Really some people are just so ignorant, do you not remember some of the vital goals he has got for us this season, no-one can deny his work ethic and does he complain considering the amount of ###### he gets from pricks like yourself. He was at right back and although he wasnt great, he did a standard job in a position he has never played before. Its not as if he has made countless mistakes and yet he still recieves abuse, its just ridiculous.

[super_arran]

That's rubbish. With the exception of Mokoena who is worse and Villenueva who did not fit that position he was only played in midfield when Tugay, Grella or Dunn were either unfit or half fit. Same goes for Oojier when he was played at full back. By that time Simpson had been written off and not even considered.

Actually Sam is already trying to bring players in to take Andrews place next season.

You know damned well what I meant by the reception he got. He knew very well before he came that the fans had vocally let him know that they did not want him so what else did he expect? Same happened with Fowler.

I never said he deserved it but possibly he did because he knew he was not wanted. Ince only brought him in to try to show who was boss.

unless you know/are Keith Andrews (same goes with Ince)...How do you know what they think?

short answer, you don't

[joey_big_nose]

Your argument is fatally flawed because the first sentence is not true.

I would argue that both Grella and Dunn even though they did not play as often are different class than Andrews. The other three are also not good enough for the Premiership and did not play very much.

I'm with Den. If they are only good enough to be squad players they are not Premiership players. Andrews is only fit to wear a shirt when you are scraping the barrel.

If we are offered more than £1mil I will drive him in my car to get his wage off the books. (And drive off as soon as his feet are on the ground)

How is the first statment fatally flawed? Andrews is no worse than those who treaded the turf on a regular basis for Stoke, Hull, Newcastle, Boro, West brom, Bolton. He is a poor Premiership player but he is still a premiership player.

I don't deny that we don't want Keith starting but why be such idiots about a guy who made a vital contribution last season when Grella, Reid, Emerton and Dunn were on the treatment table? We would have been in deep trouble without him.

I am not saying he is a better player than Grella, Dunn and Reid - he isn't - but he did give us more by virtue of being fit and putting the yards in. This should not be underestimated.

He will play a bit part next season. And people wonder why there is no loyalty to clubs in football? I don't blame the likes of Bellamy when you see this sort of attitude.

[imy9]

Meaningless. Statistics can be manipulated to suit any argumemt.

Andy Reid, Darron Whatsisname or Keith Andrews. Wow. Some choice.

Injuries and paucity of talent meant there was no one else

Ditto

The LET is favourable to all Rovers players.

Stats again? Yawn.

There are more than 1,000 newspapers in Great Britain. Not very impressive.

So the objective case falls down on every point.

Back to the subjective: Andrews is crap.

Next.

You can yawn all you want but our manager and virtually EVERY manager in the league rely on stats to pick players, select formations etc.

Your idea of stats is quite primitive and limited in its scope.

You say Andrews is crap, yet two top class managers think not, he has scored more goals than any other Rovers midfield player this year and played in a variety of positions. I saw Andrews play against Italy and he had a good game, this does not mean that he is world class or crap quite simply supports the argument of many reasonable fans on here, that Andrews is a decent premier league player but I hope we sign better this summer.

[Jonnolad]

So the objective case falls down on every point.

No it doesn't.

However contrived you want to deny the objective evidence I've presented (and in many cases you don't even both attempting it would appear), the objective argument is that you have no objective evidence to back up your viewpoint that Andrews is not premier league standard.

Let's be honest though - you're seem to now be in some sort of shut down denial "I am not listening, I am not listening"

[den]

You can yawn all you want but our manager and virtually EVERY manager in the league rely on stats to pick players, select formations etc.

What do you mean by that?

However contrived you want to deny the objective evidence I've presented

You have quoted a list of meaningless stats Jonno.

Listen. You say you don't want him in the starting line up, but then continue to tell us he must be a top player because Trappatoni picks him. Well if Trapp picks him, he must be top quality and has to start for rovers - yes/no?

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

Passes more than 25 yds 110

Attempted passes 960

Accurate passes 715

So he's fairly accurate with his passes, and he hits quite a number over 25 yards.

Opta stats might also tell you that he has a good pass completion rate, but they don't reveal the fact that the completed passes were all made over three yard distances to players either in line with himself or going backwards.

I'll hold my hands up, his tackling stats aren't bad, certainly not worthy of the criticism I gave him in that respect. However, everything else I said holds true.

No, you're right, they don't. They show the opposite.

[mellison24]

Meaningless. Statistics can be manipulated to suit any argumemt.

Andy Reid, Darron Whatsisname or Keith Andrews. Wow. Some choice.

Injuries and paucity of talent meant there was no one else

Ditto

The LET is favourable to all Rovers players.

Stats again? Yawn.

There are more than 1,000 newspapers in Great Britain. Not very impressive.

So the objective case falls down on every point.

Back to the subjective: Andrews is crap.

Next.

Ok, seeing as you are such a prat, lets see your case for saying Andrews CANT play in the premier league. Let me ask you why you consider The Independant out of 1000 newspapers to be irrelevant? Being one of the MAJOR papers AND is read by the more intelligent sector of society, something of which you are clearly not a part. Your attitude to stats is quite frankly childish. Without stats, we are left with objective opinion, which is pointless as everybody would be neither right, nor wrong. It's times like this that a fact rant from Rafa would actually be useful.

Andrews is selected for international games. No matter WHAT the choice, that is VERY good indeed. And the Irish Rep' are a well respected team!! Even if Andrews IS crap, does that matter?? He is a rovers player who scored the goals that helped give us 5 points extra or so. Can you categorically state that another player in his place would have scored those goals?? NO! So facts win mate. Give up. He may be crap, but we love him now.

[gumboots]

He may be crap, but we love him now.

Think that's taking it a bit far. However, we do feel that the judgement of some on here is a bit harsh towards him. I don't think he's crap. I think he's a useful squad player. Not necessarily a starter but a player who deserves our support because of the reasons I a nd several others have already stated.

[Al]

Ha! The real arguments are coming out now. I am a 'prick'. Jim is a 'prat'.

You can tell when a discussion has run it's course and the insults start flowing. Forget it. I don't need that sort of discussion.

[Jonnolad]

Ha! The real arguments are coming out now. I am a 'prick'. Jim is a 'prat'.

You can tell when a discussion has run it's course and the insults start flowing. Forget it. I don't need that sort of discussion.

Not being funny but that's as good as how Jim started this discussion!

You seem to have an extremely memory as far that's concerned though.

[CrazyIvan]

Ha! The real arguments are coming out now. I am a 'prick'. Jim is a 'prat'.

You can tell when a discussion has run it's course and the insults start flowing. Forget it. I don't need that sort of discussion.

Calling someone a prick or a prat is wrong. The truth is that you are ignoring facts because it suits you. The antiquated way you look at things is quite revealing. Andrews IS much better than you think. That's backed up by FACTS. You do appear to be sitting in a corner with you fingers in your ears saying 'I'm not listening, I'm not listening...' ad infinitum.

[Jonnolad]

What do you mean by that?

You have quoted a list of meaningless stats Jonno.

Listen. You say you don't want him in the starting line up, but then continue to tell us he must be a top player because Trappatoni picks him.

No - I say he must be a decent standard if Trappatoni picks him. Whereas you must presumably think Trappatoni is either insane or getting a hand job off Andrews to be picking him.

Please tell me though, why is Trappatoni picking Andrews before Andy Reid and Darron Gibson? Is Trappatoni bang wrong or is Andrews better than those players? I'm intrigued.

My stats aren't meaningless incidentally, they just don't agree with your clearly blinkered viewpoint

[jim mk2]

No it doesn't.

However contrived you want to deny the objective evidence I've presented (and in many cases you don't even both attempting it would appear), the objective argument is that you have no objective evidence to back up your viewpoint that Andrews is not premier league standard.

Let's be honest though - you're seem to now be in some sort of shut down denial "I am not listening, I am not listening"

None of your so-called "objective" evidence stands up. Anyone can see that.

Face it, you're flogging a dead horse with Andrews .... or in his case a dead donkey.

[den]

No - I say he must be a decent standard if Trappatoni picks him. Whereas you must presumably think Trappatoni is either insane or getting a hand job off Andrews to be picking him.

Oh, we are now dropping the Trappatoni only picks good players argument. They only have to be decent now. What is decent? It's all a matter of opinion isn't it.

Listen J - Whoever picks him makes no difference to me. I go and watch players and make my own judgement. Throwing stats and declaring who picks him doesn't alter what I see. Any proper manager wont look at stats when making a decision about whether to buy a player, or not. He will go and watch him, preferrably in an away game and trust his own judgement.

I don't boo him, haven't got an agenda because of where he came from, nor do I want him kicked out of the club. You wont however convince me that he's got the ability to be a regular Prem player.

[CrazyIvan]

Oh, we are now dropping the Trappatoni only picks good players argument. They only have to be decent now. What is decent? It's all a matter of opinion isn't it.

Listen J - Whoever picks him makes no difference to me. I go and watch players and make my own judgement. Throwing stats and declaring who picks him doesn't alter what I see. Any proper manager wont look at stats when making a decision about whether to buy a player, or not. He will go and watch him, preferrably in an away game and trust his own judgement.

I don't boo him, haven't got an agenda because of where he came from, nor do I want him kicked out of the club. You wont however convince me that he's got the ability to be a regular Prem player.

We shall see next season what happens with Andrews. If he plays a significant part in our campaign will you accept he is good enough?

[den]

We shall see next season what happens with Andrews. If he plays a significant part in our campaign will you accept he is good enough?

He played a significant part this season.

[CrazyIvan]

He played a significant part this season.

So, if he plays a significant part next season, is he good enough?

[imy9]

What do you mean by that?

Jim stated that stats are meaningless and I am merely highlighting that stats play a massive part in a PL managers life from seeing who is running the most in a game to who has made the most significant passes in a game.

The issue with Andrews is similar to MGP in the sense that there is a camp who think he provides little to the team, considering he was one of the leading assist makers in the league this proves that he has obviously contributed.

I am in the camp that thinks that Andrews has provided something positive for the team and at £750K was a bargain signing.

[den]

So, if he plays a significant part next season, is he good enough?

Mokoena played a significant part. Did you think he was good enough?

[Plastic Head]

We shall see next season what happens with Andrews. If he plays a significant part in our campaign will you accept he is good enough?

The fact is we could have signed one of hundreds of players from the lower divisions and they would have had a similar impact and been of a similar standard. Had his manager not moved to the Premier League he wouldn't have got anywhere near a top league club.

Does the fact that he played some games in a team that didn't get relegated mean he has done better than anyone else from MK would have?

I've seen well over 1000 Rovers games now and all MY football experiences tell me we need much better.