[Archived] Keith Andrews - Rovers Newest Signing

[Kelbo]

One thing that is missing and is in my mind pretty important for any midfielder is goals scored.

And goals conceded through poor ball retention!!

Having said that, Tugay wasnt a prolific scorer, neither was Savage, but both far superior to Keith in their different ways!!

[CrazyIvan]

And goals conceded through poor ball retention!!

Having said that, Tugay wasnt a prolific scorer, neither was Savage, but both far superior to Keith in their different ways!!

Andrews ball retention is actually pretty good. Only give the ball away once per match on average? How many goals were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion?

[tcj_jones]

Goals scored:

Andrews: 1 in every 596 mins.

Warnock: 1091.33.

Emerton: 1679.

Grella: N/A (no goals scored).

Mokoena: N/A (no goals scored).

Andrews may have the highest number of goals, but 4 is hardly impressive.

Another thing worth mentioning is that, somewhat strangely, Tugay isn't even on the list...

[tcj_jones]

Andrews ball retention is actually pretty good. Only give the ball away once per match on average? How many goals were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion?

But then he made less passes over 25 yards than Warnock and Grella, fewer key passes than Warnock and Emerton, less passes overall than Warnock and Grella and had less touches on the ball than all his counterparts.

Oh, and his ball retention was still worse than Warnock and Grella.

- I can't see a stat which reveals how many goals were conceded as a result of Andrews losing possession.

Comparisons were made to Gareth Barry. I'll go through his stats when I get back from the pool.

[Ronin]

The one where we lost 1-0 to Stoke is one where he lost possession and the opposition scored, if I remember.

[Kelbo]

Andrews ball retention is actually pretty good. Only give the ball away once per match on average? How many goals were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion?

Quite a few and directly too!

The lad does work hard but please believe me and I am well qualified to make these statements, when I look for a player, I look for five things, character, determination, ability, pace and first touch!! the first two elements are usesless without at least two of the other three, especially at 28, if he was going to improve technically to premiership standards he would have done so by now!!

His first touch and awareness are not too good, is severely lacking in pace, he doesnt have the awareness I feel he should have and on many occasions is slow to react from forward positions when possesssion changes. In order to perform at this level of football, you do need that little bit extra as some of the Burnley lads will find out this year!

[CrazyIvan]

But then he made less passes over 25 yards than Warnock and Grella, fewer key passes than Warnock and Emerton, less passes overall than Warnock and Grella and had less touches on the ball than all his counterparts.

Oh, and his ball retention was still worse than Warnock and Grella.

- I can't see a stat which reveals how many goals were conceded as a result of Andrews losing possession.

Comparisons were made to Gareth Barry. I'll go through his stats when I get back from the pool.

So he's better at some things and worse at others. For a versatile player, one who played in at least three different positions over the season, he's very useful. There aren't many in the team who could do what he did. My guess is, if Andrews was played in his prefered position he would be an average run-of-the-mill premier league midfielder, not bad but not the best.

[Jonnolad]

The one where we lost 1-0 to Stoke is one where he lost possession and the opposition scored, if I remember.

Completely out of interest, could you remember any other player who gave the ball away last season and it then led to a goal?

Our defence let 60 goals in last season, so there's a lot to go on, but I'd hazard a guess that you can't remember many, if any others.

My point here is that after that Stoke game all the usual people on here who disliked Andrews came on saying he was to blame for the goal because he gave the ball away. Forget that it was in the opposition half and Andrews was playing wide right, so Stoke then had to get past the rest of our midfield, defence and then the goalkeeper. None of that mattered, as no-one else was to blame apart from Andrews - one newspaper in particular actually ran the story that Sam needed to find a new goalkeeper after Robinson's attempt at a save. Givet's last man defending was borderline comedy as well. Didn't matter though - for those always stubbornly opposed to Andrews, the only reason Stoke scored was because he gave the ball away.

Now there's a reason there is no stat for giving the ball away and it then leading to a goal. The reason is it truly is a meaningless stat of a player's ability. A player either gives the away or he doesn't - absolutely end of - what happens after that is up to the opposition and the rest of the team. Therefore the stat is giving the ball away or not giving the ball away, what happens after that is completely down to chance.

That's the problem for Andrews though - for some people pretty much everything he does badly is amplified and is directly to blame for our woes. The same bench mark does not apply to our other players though - Tugay, Pedersen, Warnock for insatnce - they can all pretty much pass to the opposition with impunity and if it leads to a goal very rarely does anyone come on saying they are directly to blame for the goal, especially if they gave the ball away in the opposition half. People quite rightly appreciate we actually pay defenders and a goalkeeper to stop the opposition scoring when they've got the ball.

If you take a look at Pedersen's stats compared with Andrews for instance - Pedersen's accurate passes were 515 compared with Andrews 715 and he was on the pitch for longer than Andrews last season. Were people bleating that Pedersen was directly to blame for an opposition goal for giving the ball away in their half? Not that I remember they weren't. In fact I'd be surprised if anyone can remember another specific player who gave the ball away in the opposition's half and it leading to a goal.

Poor old Keith clearly has a different, higher, bench mark he has to meet for some of our fans, which doesn't seem fair to me.

[Jonnolad]

Quite a few and directly too!

The lad does work hard but please believe me and I am well qualified to make these statements, when I look for a player, I look for five things, character, determination, ability, pace and first touch!! the first two elements are usesless without at least two of the other three, especially at 28, if he was going to improve technically to premiership standards he would have done so by now!!

His first touch and awareness are not too good, is severely lacking in pace, he doesnt have the awareness I feel he should have and on many occasions is slow to react from forward positions when possesssion changes. In order to perform at this level of football, you do need that little bit extra as some of the Burnley lads will find out this year!

That's all just your opinion of course. The problem is though, if it's true, how do you explain Big Sam continually choosing him to start? Not just that but then having enough faith in him to play him out of position?? It clearly doesn't make any sense if your assessment of the player is true.

Why is Sam doing it then? Is he drugged up every match and thinks he's watching a different game? Does he have the match video's sent over to Saudi and they come back censored like they do with the English papers over there - but instead of any shots of women's legs etc being cut, it's all the footage of Andrews? Does Sam use the stars or the tarot cards in his team selection?

What it is?

Aside from that I'm interested how you define loosing possession and it directly leading to a goal? Surely you give the ball away or you don't - how does it directly lead to a goal or for that matter indirectly lead to a goal? I'm honest interested what you mean by directly.

[Kelbo]

Why is Sam doing it then? Is he drugged up every match and thinks he's watching a different game? Does he have the match video's sent over to Saudi and they come back censored like they do with the English papers over there - but instead of any shots of women's legs etc being cut, it's all the footage of Andrews? Does Sam use the stars or the tarot cards in his team selection?

What it is? Grella, Dunn, Emerton, Reid etc all injured!!

Aside from that I'm interested how you define loosing possession and it directly leading to a goal? Surely you give the ball away or you don't - how does it directly lead to a goal or for that matter indirectly lead to a goal? I'm honest interested what you mean by directly.

Losing posession I do not mean being neccessarily tackled, I mean giving the ball away by poor passing and not finding feet!! look at the 'hospital' balls he plays where team mates have to risk limbs to recieve the pass, yes, the stats will show its a positive pass when in real terms it really is not.

By directly, I do mean giving the ball to opponents who then go through to score!!

He is continually slow to react from midfield areas when posession changes and simply cant get back to protect his defence!!

If you lose the ball going for a killer pass in the final 3rd, fine, but many are lazy inaccurate passes in the second third and then our defence is exposed to four on four or even worse!! At full back he did ok, just very slow but I am commenting on a midfielder in a league which has a great emphasis on pace.

[bellamy11]

Losing posession I do not mean being neccessarily tackled, I mean giving the ball away by poor passing and not finding feet!! look at the 'hospital' balls he plays where team mates have to risk limbs to recieve the pass, yes, the stats will show its a positive pass when in real terms it really is not.

By directly, I do mean giving the ball to opponents who then go through to score!!

Name the goals. You said "quite a few" a couple of posts back. How many is quite a few? 3? 10? Can you name any apart from the Stoke goal?

[CrazyIvan]

Losing posession I do not mean being neccessarily tackled, I mean giving the ball away by poor passing and not finding feet!! look at the 'hospital' balls he plays where team mates have to risk limbs to recieve the pass, yes, the stats will show its a positive pass when in real terms it really is not.

By directly, I do mean giving the ball to opponents who then go through to score!!

He is continually slow to react from midfield areas when posession changes and simply cant get back to protect his defence!!

If you lose the ball going for a killer pass in the final 3rd, fine, but many are lazy inaccurate passes in the second third and then our defence is exposed to four on four or even worse!! At full back he did ok, just very slow but I am commenting on a midfielder in a league which has a great emphasis on pace.

I don't know who you've been watching but some of this could describe any number of players this season, Tugay included.

I think some of your criticism of Andrews here is massively over the top and completely unrealistic. If he were this bad, Sam would never have played him.

[thenodrog]

If you take a look at Pedersen's stats compared with Andrews for instance - Pedersen's accurate passes were 515 compared with Andrews 715 and he was on the pitch for longer than Andrews last season. Were people bleating that Pedersen was directly to blame for an opposition goal for giving the ball away in their half? Not that I remember they weren't. In fact I'd be surprised if anyone can remember another specific player who gave the ball away in the opposition's half and it leading to a goal.

How can the pass rate of a winger compare to that of a midfielder or even more a defender? Forwards have much less time and space than the others. If stats do not take that into some sort of account then they are worthless.

[Jonnolad]

How can the pass rate of a winger compare to that of a midfielder or even more a defender? Forwards have much less time and space than the others. If stats do not take that into some sort of account then they are worthless.

That wasn't my point - my point was Pedersen gives the ball away to the opposition more than Andrews which will invariably lead to more goals, but I don't hear many people, if any, berating Pedersen as being the reason for the opposition scoring when they had to get past the rest of our midfield, our defence and goalie. They clearly do with Andrews though. Bit weird eh.

Don't forget that for the Stoke game Andrews played the majority of the game on the right of midfield, with Pedersen on the left.

[Fife Rover]

Somebody aked which if any of our players other than Andrews gave the ball away with it leading to a goal scored against us. OK just one example: Rovers leading Man C. 2-0 at Ewood with less than 5 mins to play. Ooijer heads the ball from a position well wide of our goal but chooses to head it back towards our goal, whereupon it is snapped up by a City player and a goal results. Score now 2-1 in Rovers favour and the 90 mins just about up, but in time added on Derbyshire collects the ball again out on the wing and could have wellied it upfield, or run with it, but again makes the wrong choice and gives the ball away and City score another to steal 2 points off us that on the game as a whole they didn't deserve.

It's not just Andrews that gives the ball away, but he seems to be the only one that people remember doing it. I wonder why that is?

[Ronin]

Personally, I've got nothing against Andrews. He's been given a chance at a Premier League club, albeit by his former boss, but he's made the leap from League 2 and grabbed the opportunity firmly with both hands and done very well. He's scored some crucial goals too - equaliser against the Baggies, the winner against Hull and another against the Whammers. The fact that he's in Trappatoni's squads shows that he has got some recognition and reward for his effort. I wouldn't say he's a definite starter at Rovers, depends on who else Sam brings in and who's on the treatment table, but he is an able squad player that can plug a gap and play out of position when called upon. I'd compare him with Zurab, as he doesn't whinge and moan, he just gets on with the job in hand.

[JAL]

Completely out of interest, could you remember any other player who gave the ball away last season and it then led to a goal?

Our defence let 60 goals in last season, so there's a lot to go on, but I'd hazard a guess that you can't remember many, if any others.

My point here is that after that Stoke game all the usual people on here who disliked Andrews came on saying he was to blame for the goal because he gave the ball away. Forget that it was in the opposition half and Andrews was playing wide right, so Stoke then had to get past the rest of our midfield, defence and then the goalkeeper. None of that mattered, as no-one else was to blame apart from Andrews - one newspaper in particular actually ran the story that Sam needed to find a new goalkeeper after Robinson's attempt at a save. Givet's last man defending was borderline comedy as well. Didn't matter though - for those always stubbornly opposed to Andrews, the only reason Stoke scored was because he gave the ball away.

Now there's a reason there is no stat for giving the ball away and it then leading to a goal. The reason is it truly is a meaningless stat of a player's ability. A player either gives the away or he doesn't - absolutely end of - what happens after that is up to the opposition and the rest of the team. Therefore the stat is giving the ball away or not giving the ball away, what happens after that is completely down to chance.

That's the problem for Andrews though - for some people pretty much everything he does badly is amplified and is directly to blame for our woes. The same bench mark does not apply to our other players though - Tugay, Pedersen, Warnock for insatnce - they can all pretty much pass to the opposition with impunity and if it leads to a goal very rarely does anyone come on saying they are directly to blame for the goal, especially if they gave the ball away in the opposition half. People quite rightly appreciate we actually pay defenders and a goalkeeper to stop the opposition scoring when they've got the ball.

If you take a look at Pedersen's stats compared with Andrews for instance - Pedersen's accurate passes were 515 compared with Andrews 715 and he was on the pitch for longer than Andrews last season. Were people bleating that Pedersen was directly to blame for an opposition goal for giving the ball away in their half? Not that I remember they weren't. In fact I'd be surprised if anyone can remember another specific player who gave the ball away in the opposition's half and it leading to a goal.

Poor old Keith clearly has a different, higher, bench mark he has to meet for some of our fans, which doesn't seem fair to me.

He gave the ball away cheaply jonnolad, which totally put the rest of the team out of sorts. If Keith had passed the ball to another team member would we have had this discussion. Critical mistakes in key games sorts the winners from the losers.

[bazza]

He gave the ball away cheaply jonnolad, which totally put the rest of the team out of sorts. If Keith had passed the ball to another team member would we have had this discussion. Critical mistakes in key games sorts the winners from the losers.

Tugay gave the ball away cheaply several times in several games; hence many on this board referring to him passing to "his invisible friend".

Therefore by KA giving the ball away cheaply we can say he is emulating his hero, Tugay.

[47er]

Tugay did have a maddening habit from time to time of needlessly giving the ball away but he did many absolutely brilliant things too. I can't remember Andrews doing anything brilliant apart from 1 goal-line clearence under the crossbar. Not in the same class is he?

I have nothing against Andrews personally and I have never booed him and never would. He's simply not good enough. I don't criticise him because Ince signed him but I can't handle it when people use Andrews as an example to illustrate that really Ince wasn't all that bad. because Andrews was cheap. Its often the same idiots who thought Ince should have been given more time and would have seen us relegated.

[CrazyIvan]

Tugay did have a maddening habit from time to time of needlessly giving the ball away but he did many absolutely brilliant things too. I can't remember Andrews doing anything brilliant apart from 1 goal-line clearence under the crossbar. Not in the same class is he?

I have nothing against Andrews personally and I have never booed him and never would. He's simply not good enough. I don't criticise him because Ince signed him but I can't handle it when people use Andrews as an example to illustrate that really Ince wasn't all that bad. because Andrews was cheap. Its often the same idiots who thought Ince should have been given more time and would have seen us relegated.

Ince was godawful. There's no doubt about it but Andrews isn't. This is the maddening things from people who can see past the person who signed Andrews to those who refuse to. Andrews is a competent Premier League player, not the best and not the worst but someone who can and has done a job for us this last season. If he was as bad as people make out, Big Sam would never have asked him to play different roles in the team and play him every week.

[tcj_jones]

Tugay did have a maddening habit from time to time of needlessly giving the ball away but he did many absolutely brilliant things too. I can't remember Andrews doing anything brilliant apart from 1 goal-line clearence under the crossbar. Not in the same class is he?

I have nothing against Andrews personally and I have never booed him and never would. He's simply not good enough. I don't criticise him because Ince signed him but I can't handle it when people use Andrews as an example to illustrate that really Ince wasn't all that bad. because Andrews was cheap. Its often the same idiots who thought Ince should have been given more time and would have seen us relegated.

Yeah, well said.

I have a feeling that the only reason this debate got re-ignited was that it is close season and not much else is going on.

[Jonnolad]

Tugay did have a maddening habit from time to time of needlessly giving the ball away but he did many absolutely brilliant things too. I can't remember Andrews doing anything brilliant apart from 1 goal-line clearence under the crossbar. Not in the same class is he?

I have nothing against Andrews personally and I have never booed him and never would. He's simply not good enough. I don't criticise him because Ince signed him but I can't handle it when people use Andrews as an example to illustrate that really Ince wasn't all that bad. because Andrews was cheap. Its often the same idiots who thought Ince should have been given more time and would have seen us relegated.

Who are these people then? I'm certainly not one of them. I thought Ince had to go - any more time would have just been time wasted in looking for a new manager. I also didn't want Ince as the manager either - I didn't think he would be as bad as he was though but neither did many people apart from thenodrog.

Defending Andrews for being a good buy at £800k is not the same thing as defending Ince for being a good manager. Ince was a diabolical manager - if he wasn't the worst the premier league has ever seen then he was certainly up there. However Andrews was a good buy at £800k - getting a player for that price and him then making 27 premier league starts is probably worth that money alone, but the really, really important thing is he is obviously worth more than the £800k we paid for him. Therefore Andrews was undoubtably a good buy at £800k.

But I think it was down to luck and Andrews himself that he was a good buy than Ince's skills as a manager.

Ince was a terrible manager, so it would be helpful to stop using the "its often the same idiots who thought Ince should have been given more time and would have seen us relegated" argument as it clearly isn't true.

[almuncle]

I have only just come out of therapy, having spent good money at a top Swiss clinic to clear all memories of You- Know -Who ( not Voldemort , no! ).

Only to find I am constantly challenged by people digging him up for comment on various threads. I have avoided THE ---- thread. but he keeps popping up all over. Please . please consider the cost of a relapse.

[Jonnolad]

He gave the ball away cheaply jonnolad, which totally put the rest of the team out of sorts. If Keith had passed the ball to another team member would we have had this discussion. Critical mistakes in key games sorts the winners from the losers.

Then Ooijer and Derbyshire are clearly losers then from the examples given by Fife. Tugay gave the ball away cheaply as well in games, as did Warnock, as did Samba. As for Grella - he literally couldn't pass to his own team mates in some games. They all must be losers eh! They obviously aren't and neither is Andrews (well the jury is still out for Grella!). All players give the ball away at times. The stats show that Andrews actually gives the ball away less than most though.

When other players give the ball away, no-one cares. When other players give the ball away and it leads to a goal, no-one remembers - certainly not one where the ball was given away in the opposition's half - who then still have to get past the rest of our team to score. People clearly remember when it's Andrews though. It's interesting to note that Kelbo's answer to the question "How many goals were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion?" was "Quite a few and directly too!", yet he clearly can't name another single one when asked. Does that not strike anyone else as odd?

The poor lad obviously has a far higher bar to reach than our other players - why? Did he cost us a fortune and should therefore be justifying this high cost? No. Has he come out and said he's not happy and wants to leave and should therefore be showing his commitment on the pitch? No. The opposite in fact. So why does Andrews have to make less mistakes than other players before he is worth his place in the squad? It's not fair on the lad.

[den]

I also didn't want Ince as the manager either - I didn't think he would be as bad as he was though but neither did many people apart from thenodrog.

God knows where you get this idea from. There were plenty of people against Ince at the time Jonno. Just because you haven't found those posts yet doesn't mean anything.