[Archived] Keith Andrews - Rovers Newest Signing

[Kelbo]

I am not going to get into any arguments here, I have my opinions, lets wait and see how many starts he gets next year when we have decent players to choose from!

If I am wrong, have a go then but my honest opinion is technically he is quite poor.

[47er]

Who are these people then? I'm certainly not one of them. I thought Ince had to go - any more time would have just been time wasted in looking for a new manager. I also didn't want Ince as the manager either - I didn't think he would be as bad as he was though but neither did many people apart from thenodrog.

Defending Andrews for being a good buy at £800k is not the same thing as defending Ince for being a good manager. Ince was a diabolical manager - if he wasn't the worst the premier league has ever seen then he was certainly up there. However Andrews was a good buy at £800k - getting a player for that price and him then making 27 premier league starts is probably worth that money alone, but the really, really important thing is he is obviously worth more than the £800k we paid for him. Therefore Andrews was undoubtably a good buy at £800k.

But I think it was down to luck and Andrews himself that he was a good buy than Ince's skills as a manager.

Ince was a terrible manager, so it would be helpful to stop using the "its often the same idiots who thought Ince should have been given more time and would have seen us relegated" argument as it clearly isn't true.

This debate has ranged for months and it has usually been the same old idiots. Just cos you're a different one doesn't make my point invalid. And no,I'm not going to name them, everybody but you knows. Finally I've posted twice on this topic as far as I remember. You on the other hand seem completely obsessed.

[Jonnolad]

God knows where you get this idea from. There were plenty of people against Ince at the time Jonno. Just because you haven't found those posts yet doesn't mean anything.

Apologies for being frank here Den, but have you had a serious injury involving your head as it seems you are now arguing against my point by just repeating my point!

You've quoted me saying:

"I also didn't want Ince as the manager either"

With the argument:

"There were plenty of people against Ince at the time Jonno"

No sh1t den! I was one of those people who was against Ince - you've even quoted me as such!

It seems you are getting a bit daft here - I say something is black, you just seem to say it's white for the sake of it (even though you are actually agreeing with me). I'm not sure if it's because you actually have nothing to add of merit to the Andrews debate but it's just a bit daft.

Inceidentally Den, this is what you yourself put when Ince was first appointed:

"This is a reassuring article.

He embraces all the sports sciences, - he apparently used them at MK Dons."

On his first being appointed you posted nothing negative about the bloke at all - not one word.

[jim mk2]

Then Ooijer and Derbyshire are clearly losers then from the examples given by Fife. Tugay gave the ball away cheaply as well in games, as did Warnock, as did Samba. As for Grella - he literally couldn't pass to his own team mates in some games. They all must be losers eh! They obviously aren't and neither is Andrews (well the jury is still out for Grella!). All players give the ball away at times. The stats show that Andrews actually gives the ball away less than most though.

When other players give the ball away, no-one cares. When other players give the ball away and it leads to a goal, no-one remembers - certainly not one where the ball was given away in the opposition's half - who then still have to get past the rest of our team to score. People clearly remember when it's Andrews though. It's interesting to note that Kelbo's answer to the question "How many goals were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion?" was "Quite a few and directly too!", yet he clearly can't name another single one when asked. Does that not strike anyone else as odd?

The poor lad obviously has a far higher bar to reach than our other players - why? Did he cost us a fortune and should therefore be justifying this high cost? No. Has he come out and said he's not happy and wants to leave and should therefore be showing his commitment on the pitch? No. The opposite in fact. So why does Andrews have to make less mistakes than other players before he is worth his place in the squad? It's not fair on the lad.

Your continuing defence of the indefensible is bordering on obsession.

Are you related to the lamentable Andrews in some way ?

Are you his agent ?

Are you perhaps romantically linked with him ? Are you his toy boy ?

Are you mentally ill ?

I also notice that Andrews' entry on wikipedia has been changed recently. The last sentence now laughably reads:

Keith has gone from a player who most Rovers fans objected to signing due to his lack of top-tier experience, to virtual cult status, owing to his important goals scored, and good all-round performances

That wouldn't be your hand perchance, would it ?

All these questions and more need objective answers, backed up by Opta stats naturally

[Jonnolad]

This debate has ranged for months and it has usually been the same old idiots. Just cos you're a different one doesn't make my point invalid.

I'm not a different one though. I first posted on this thread on Aug 28 2008 in Andrews defence, and have been posting the same sort of stuff ever since. I'd certainly be one of the main posters on this thread, and would definitely be the main poster in Andrews defence on here.

Now I appreciate that you've only posted twice on this topic, but the truth is I'm not a different idiot who's been involved in this debate, I'm definitely one of the old idiots involved

Therefore your point is invalid when you say ""its often the same idiots who thought Ince should have been given more time and would have seen us relegated", because it actually isn't.

[Jonnolad]

Your continuing defence of the indefensible is bordering on obsession.

"Indefensible"?

What are you on about? Seriously, I'm intrigued.

Jim the truth of the matter is you come on this thread with the opinion that Andrews is dire, yet you categorically fail to back this up with anything other than - "he is because I say he is". Not only that but you completely fail to explain the glaringly incompatible situation with your argument, not least of which is our manager continues to pick Andrews over other players.

With respect you are just coming across as a silly stubborn old man. Sorry but that’s the truth.

I also notice that Andrews' entry on wikipedia has been changed recently. The last sentence now laughably reads:

Keith has gone from a player who most Rovers fans objected to signing due to his lack of top-tier experience, to virtual cult status, owing to his important goals scored, and good all-round performances

Lol, not me.

[Jonnolad]

I am not going to get into any arguments here, I have my opinions, lets wait and see how many starts he gets next year when we have decent players to choose from!

In other words you can't actually remember any other specific goals which were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion, even though you said "quite a few and directly too". Why not just admit that you don't actually know if there were any other opposition goals which were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion?

Not being funny but it speaks volumes about the Andrews detractors on here.

[alexanders]

I think he gave away a free-kick which resulted in a goal. Good if someone could help me remember against who. United maybe?

[jim mk2]

In other words you can't actually remember any other specific goals which were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion, even though you said "quite a few and directly too". Why not just admit that you don't actually know if there were any other opposition goals which were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion?

Not being funny but it speaks volumes about the Andrews detractors on here.

A psychiatrist would have a field day with you.

Answer the questions.

Why are you obsessed with Andrews ?

[Kelbo]

In other words you can't actually remember any other specific goals which were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion, even though you said "quite a few and directly too". Why not just admit that you don't actually know if there were any other opposition goals which were conceded directly following Andrews losing possesion?

Not being funny but it speaks volumes about the Andrews detractors on here.

The reason I am unable to post exacts is that being involved in semi pro football, I am only able to attend midweek and sunday games, the comments I made were valid and taken from either games I have watched or games I have seen the goals against on Television!!

As a coach, I probably am over critical, but coaching lads who have been released from league clubs, who in my opinion have a greater technical ability than Keith Andrews, makes me even more critical!!

[Majiball]

Can people please stop using stat's as the be all and end all. They are a crutch nothing more, they don't tell half the story.

Why does Keith get picked for Ireland??? Perhaps its because he's the ONLY Eire central midfielder playing in the premiership, what national manager never choose the players at his disposal who are playing at the highest level. Joe bloggs down the road me from plays for Gibraltar, so as he plays international football does that make him premiership standard???? Bruno Berner was a full international so he's premiership class, as is Vogel and quite a few others by this argument.

Keith Andrews played lots of games last year, why because we had no other fit mid fielders. We had such problems in central midfield we even played a left back there for most of the season. If you cannot see past this point, then there's no point in this debate, LB in midfield shows how desperate we where.

Stop comparing Andrews to Tugay arriving late in his career, Tugay was a world renowned player long before he joined Rovers.

Keith's high pass completion, Keith has a high pass rate because simply he plays the safe/easy/short option every time. but I would ask why a central midfielder has a touch rate of almost 2 minutes??? given he's playing in the role that normally gets the highest. But your going to dismiss my short pass comment as opinion.

You need to compare him against players from another team, say WBA, Newcastle, Sunderland and see how he compares to them. But then I'll bring up style of play, formations, personal style, distance of pass, direction of pass, reaction time and so on. You cannot win with stat's they are flawed in football.

CM is the most demanding role in the premiership, Physically, technically and whilst Andrews can do a job, we need someone who can do the job. He is not a starter, he knows this as well:

Andrews himself said he was gob-smacked he'd played so much, which shows he expected no better than the bench. You could also allude that he doesn't think he's better than the rest of our central mid fielders, when fit.

Football is subjective, its always has been and always will be, there is no all en-compassing formula, thats why its so popular. If you want to use just stat's to back up your argument fine, but no-one in the world of football would use them as the defining point, because it doesn't work. Its a battle of opinions of knowledge not stupid bloody figures that can be twisted to any argument. If it was based on stat's football would be a walk in the park, its not.

You cannot force objectivity into a subject that is not based on it.

[bellamy11]

Tthe comments I made were valid and taken from either games I have watched or games I have seen the goals against on Television!!

Well, obviously...

What are the goals you speak of?

[den]

Apologies for being frank here Den, but have you had a serious injury involving your head as it seems you are now arguing against my point by just repeating my point!

You've quoted me saying:

"I also didn't want Ince as the manager either"

With the argument:

"There were plenty of people against Ince at the time Jonno"

No sh1t den! I was one of those people who was against Ince - you've even quoted me as such!

It seems you are getting a bit daft here - I say something is black, you just seem to say it's white for the sake of it (even though you are actually agreeing with me). I'm not sure if it's because you actually have nothing to add of merit to the Andrews debate but it's just a bit daft.

Inceidentally Den, this is what you yourself put when Ince was first appointed:

"This is a reassuring article.

He embraces all the sports sciences, - he apparently used them at MK Dons."

On his first being appointed you posted nothing negative about the bloke at all - not one word.

Don't see why I should accept being abused by you Jonno.

As for me posting nothing negative about Ince when he was first appointed, search all the posts about Paul Ince, there were literally thousands made at the time. Look for the one where my first reaction was "Oh Noooooo". The post you quote above was probably me trying to find some kind of positive out of the whole affair.

I didn't want Ince in the first place, never thought he could attract the quality of player that we needed and never believed he would get the respect of the players. Theno might, or might not remember me saying exactly that to him in a PM.

[Jonnolad]

A psychiatrist would have a field day with you.

Funny I was thinking the same thing

Answer the questions.

Why are you obsessed with Andrews ?

I'm not obsessed with Andrews. It's just that I don't mind speaking up for people who I think are being unjustly prejudiced, even if it goes against the majority (from a psychological perspective why not have a think about our differing positions on this one and see what it says about our respective personalities).

Now, I've answered your question, would you now be so kind as to answer mine:

Would you say Andrews has been fairly treated by our fans?

[Jonnolad]

Can people please stop using stat's as the be all and end all. They are a crutch nothing more, they don't tell half the story.

Why does Keith get picked for Ireland??? Perhaps its because he's the ONLY Eire central midfielder playing in the premiership, what national manager never choose the players at his disposal who are playing at the highest level. Joe bloggs down the road me from plays for Gibraltar, so as he plays international football does that make him premiership standard???? Bruno Berner was a full international so he's premiership class, as is Vogel and quite a few others by this argument.

He isn't the "ONLY Eire central midfielder playing in the premiership" though. He is directly keeping Andy Reid of Sunderland, and Darron Gibson of Man U playing in his position. And Keith Andrews only started to get in the ROI after his performances for us. Are they premier league standard - both clubs haven't seemed to be in a rush to get rid of them (let alone loan them out).

Keith Andrews played lots of games last year, why because we had no other fit mid fielders. We had such problems in central midfield we even played a left back there for most of the season. If you cannot see past this point, then there's no point in this debate, LB in midfield shows how desperate we where.

But we had other fit midfielders - you'll recall the left back incidentally (Warnock) was played by Hughes there as well as Allardyce too.

Plus it doesn't explain Allardyce playing Andrews at right back for the last games for us last season. If Andrews was so dire why not play Ooijer at right back instead? Khizanishvili was available to play instead of Ooijer at centre back so why did Big Sam continually play Andrews out of position if he didn't rate him? Why would Andrews even be on the bench, led alone be starting out of position if he was so dire?

I'm sorry but the "there was no-one better" argument doesn't actually hold any water unless you want to accept that Sam rates Andrews better than half of our current squad!

[CrazyIvan]

I can't be bothered trying to explain why facts are better than an opinion and I'm going to give up trying to explain things to people who are so entrenched in their view that they can't see how ridiculous it makes them look.

The FACT remains that Andrews IS a Premier League player. He played enough games, under Big Sam, to qualify as one. Big Sam obviously thinks he's good enough to play at this level. I'm going to side with the manager on whether Andrews is a Premier League player as he's the one who has and will pick the team. If Big Sam had dropped Andrews and put him on the bench last season, then I would say that he maybe hasn't got what it takes. As far as I'm concerned Big Sam's opinon has a lot more weight to it than anybody on this forum and he sees the player day in day out during the season. So Andrews remains a Premier League player no matter what some people on here think.

[Jonnolad]

Don't see why I should accept being abused by you Jonno.

As for me posting nothing negative about Ince when he was first appointed, search all the posts about Paul Ince, there were literally thousands made at the time. Look for the one where my first reaction was "Oh Noooooo". The post you quote above was probably me trying to find some kind of positive out of the whole affair.

I didn't want Ince in the first place, never thought he could attract the quality of player that we needed and never believed he would get the respect of the players. Theno might, or might not remember me saying exactly that to him in a PM.

Abused by you? You mean haven't agreed with you?

I've an idea as well - instead of me searching all the posts about Paul Ince, why don't you just search some of them instead to back up your point of view.

[Darth Paul]

He isn't a world beater, then neither are most of our squad. He works hard and has visibly improved over the season after making a big jump up.

Rovers fans always have to be a scapegoat and lately it seems to be either Andrews or Pedersen. Making Andrews a scapegoat is the easy (lazy) option because the fact that he came from a lower league can be thrown in to the argument so easily.

I would like to think the signings we make for next season mean Andrews is only a squad player, as hopefully they will be better, but he is an able substitute.

[LeChuck]

Plus it doesn't explain Allardyce playing Andrews at right back for the last games for us last season. If Andrews was so dire why not play Ooijer at right back instead? Khizanishvili was available to play instead of Ooijer at centre back so why did Big Sam continually play Andrews out of position if he didn't rate him?

Andrews never started ahead of Ooijer at right back and the last time we played Zurab at right back he got annihilated. The only thing Andrews playing there proved was that Simpson was every bit as poor as we all thought he was.

[Majiball]

Would you say Andrews has been fairly treated by our fans?

He was never going to be treated any differently, how on earth could you ever think he wouldn't be received like a bird crapping on your head??? Personally I could without the luck it brings but others would be ecstatic.

He was sneaked in against the wishes of many fans who saw him as a managers pet signing. No its not Keith's fault but to think that it would be any different than it is, is blinkered. He was always going to be under the microscope by our fans, every little thing would be picked up on and commented on.

Thats Football.

[Jonnolad]

As a coach, I probably am over critical, but coaching lads who have been released from league clubs, who in my opinion have a greater technical ability than Keith Andrews, makes me even more critical!!

Quick, pass on their details to big Sam!

[thenodrog]

I didn't want Ince in the first place, never thought he could attract the quality of player that we needed and never believed he would get the respect of the players. Theno might, or might not remember me saying exactly that to him in a PM.

I have a glimmer of recollection only Den sorry. Doesn't help having to empty the postbox every so often. Also at the time Paul Ince was appointed there was lots of stuff flying around me cos I was probably most vociferous in my conviction that he would bring our club down, which he damned near did!

I think there were a few categories to place posters in at that time.

1. Those that foolisly thought he was another 'find' as in a young and vibrant manager. These people were probably all in favour of Old Big ed Shearer until he turned us down.

2. Those that were doubtful and hesitant about his appointment because they wanted someone else.

3. Those incredibly stupid sods that ignored his credentials.... or rather lack of em...but were glad purely cos he is black and we had been the first club to appoint a proper black manager.

4. Those that were less than enamoured but willing to give him a chance based I think on JW's impressive track record in finding managers. (Biggest group imo). JW's record is now in pieces mind and he starts again.

5. Those that were not keen but simply unable to agree with me on anything. (prob 2nd biggest group )

6. Those who saw through the clown and the razzamatazz surrounding his arrival but were not as vociferous in dissing him as me. Jimski / Jan etc etc.

7. Me. ........... Even my mates in the pub(s) said that I was wrong and that I should be prepared to give the bloke a chance. Most have apologised since for doubting me mind.

Have I missed anyone? If so feel free to add your own categories folks.

oops!

8. Sorry I have. Gunner Graham who bent this way and that like a reed in the wind until Ince's ineptitude finally made his mind up for him.

[Jonnolad]

He was never going to be treated any differently, how on earth could you ever think he wouldn't be received like a bird crapping on your head??? Personally I could without the luck it brings but others would be ecstatic.

He was sneaked in against the wishes of many fans who saw him as a managers pet signing. No its not Keith's fault but to think that it would be any different than it is, is blinkered. He was always going to be under the microscope by our fans, every little thing would be picked up on and commented on.

Thats Football.

In other words it's "no" then.

[tcj_jones]

Can people please stop using stat's as the be all and end all. They are a crutch nothing more, they don't tell half the story.

Why does Keith get picked for Ireland??? Perhaps its because he's the ONLY Eire central midfielder playing in the premiership, what national manager never choose the players at his disposal who are playing at the highest level. Joe bloggs down the road me from plays for Gibraltar, so as he plays international football does that make him premiership standard???? Bruno Berner was a full international so he's premiership class, as is Vogel and quite a few others by this argument.

Keith Andrews played lots of games last year, why because we had no other fit mid fielders. We had such problems in central midfield we even played a left back there for most of the season. If you cannot see past this point, then there's no point in this debate, LB in midfield shows how desperate we where.

Keith's high pass completion, Keith has a high pass rate because simply he plays the safe/easy/short option every time. but I would ask why a central midfielder has a touch rate of almost 2 minutes??? given he's playing in the role that normally gets the highest. But your going to dismiss my short pass comment as opinion.

You need to compare him against players from another team, say WBA, Newcastle, Sunderland and see how he compares to them. But then I'll bring up style of play, formations, personal style, distance of pass, direction of pass, reaction time and so on. You cannot win with stat's they are flawed in football.

CM is the most demanding role in the premiership, Physically, technically and whilst Andrews can do a job, we need someone who can do the job. He is not a starter, he knows this as well:

Andrews himself said he was gob-smacked he'd played so much, which shows he expected no better than the bench. You could also allude that he doesn't think he's better than the rest of our central mid fielders, when fit.

Football is subjective, its always has been and always will be, there is no all en-compassing formula, thats why its so popular. If you want to use just stat's to back up your argument fine, but no-one in the world of football would use them as the defining point, because it doesn't work. Its a battle of opinions of knowledge not stupid bloody figures that can be twisted to any argument. If it was based on stat's football would be a walk in the park, its not.

You cannot force objectivity into a subject that is not based on it.

This post should be pinned at the top of every page on this thread. These are exactly the points that I have tried to have people realise.

Also, when asked to remember exactly a specific incident that occured over the course of a 38+ game season, we will struggle. But we will always remember the general performance of a player. Stop asking us to recall exact moments when Andrews might have given the ball away, for example, because we aren't going to be able to.

4. Those that were less than enamoured but willing to give him a chance based I think on JW's impressive track record in finding managers. (Biggest group imo). JW's record is now in pieces mind and he starts again.

For the record, I was in this group. I admit that I stuck by him longer than most, but there were one or two results that really opened my eyes and forced me to change my stance considerably.

[Neil Weaver]

Answer the questions.

Seen it all now. Just like you ALWAYS do, eh Jim.

Jonno, see you've given an answer to Jim. Don't expect any answers from our ex-journo. Personally I'd say the truth - as is often the case - lies somewhere between the two ends of the spectrum that are shown in the last few pages. BTW, do you think this is all getting a bit repetitive?