[Archived] Keith Andrews - Rovers Newest Signing

[imy9]

Just to clarify I'm not intending to argue against this, if he plays the amount of games a squad player would (10 ish base on Zurab/Derbs/Berner/Treacy/Olsson and whatever other squad players we have/had) then it's fine. My point is the reason we were in a relegation fight last season was because incredibly average players were being asked to play 30+ games - Andrews being a prime example. If we want to progress next season his games must be kept down to a minimum and only used when others are unavailable.

Who are the other players and why are they not getting such a hard time?

[BuckyRover]

Are you sure it was an error?

It made me laugh!

What did it say? Was it not just a repeat post from the one at the top?

It's not easy posting on the iPhone. I never know what I have said!

[T4E]

I'll be honest it definitely seemed you'd run out of anything of substance to say so you came out with the "you post too much about Andrews" line. Now, after the ridiculousness of this was pointed out, you say you actually did it to help me out because people won't read my posts. Well I'd best give you the benefit of the doubt there.

I havent "run out of anything of substance to say" because I wasn't involved in the debate you are having in the first place. I'm looking at this from the outside, and from that angle your obsessiveness is ruining your point.

Are you suggesting that the best way to get my point across is not post?

Do you genuinely think that posting this much is helping to get your point across? How many more things can you say? If you haven't managed to change people's opinions after 112+ posts, you are never going to. You've made your opinion completely clear, and you aren't going to make the people you are arguing with agree with you, so what exactly is your aim?

[joey_big_nose]

Reid has started 28 PL games in 3 years. I think he was a great player and very much hope he gets back to where he was in 2005-06. They would have been desperate to get him ready for pre-season and it will be a big blow for him to already be so far behind the rest. As such, I don't think for a moment that he will walk back into contention and displace whoever starts with the shirts in central midfield.

At the moment, that is two from Andrews, Grella, Dunn and Nzonzi. If Emerton and Reid come back into contention at roughly the same time, I can't imagine they would both also be fighting for a CM spot (2 from 5 makes sense, 2 from 6 doesn't) - Emerton will be challenging for RM or RB.

I think if thats whose available Grella and Warnock would start in the middle of a 442, or Grella, Warnock and Dunn in a 433/451. Andrews might struggle to make the bench if N'Zonzi continues to look good.

[DanLad]

What did it say? Was it not just a repeat post from the one at the top?

It's not easy posting on the iPhone. I never know what I have said!

Yes, it was repeating your earlier post where you said that constantly posting about Jonno was crazy.

I thought you were repeating yourself for humourous effect!

[den]

The fact of the matter is though Den, the Andrews detractors have to continually make excuses for things like this. Whereas all that is needed by those who say Andrews is decent is say "Andrews is a decent player". Sorry to do this again but let's go through the things which point to Andrews being a decent player:

Sam Allardyce consistently starts with Andrews in vital matches:

Those for: Andrews is a decent player

Those against: He only picks him because of injuries / suspensions (anyone on the bench is presumably worse than Andrews with this excuse though)

Giovanni Trappatoni calls up Andrews and starts him in vital international matches:

Those for: Andrews is a decent player

Those against: There is nobody else better (Andrews is therefore better than Liam Miller, Andy Reid and Darron Gibson though).

Roy Hodgson is interested in buying Andrews:

Those for: Andrews is a decent player

Those against: Roy Hodgson has made bad purchases in the past (this categorically has to be one of those too even though he has probably made more good purchases than bad purchases and he now seems to be a good judge of player when choosing his starting 11)

Rovers have said that Andrews is categorically not for sale:

Those for: Andrews is a decent player

Those against: Rovers are playing hard ball (although inexplicably they don't normally say that a player is categorically not for sale when they actually want to sell them).

Andrews consistently marks competently in the opta stats:

Those for: Andrews is a decent player

Those against: The stats lie (possibly my favourite one from the detractors)

Andrews consistently gets reasonable to favourable write ups in match reports:

Those for: Andrews is a decent player

Those against: Journalists can't be a judge of our players since they don't see them as often as the fans (which for the fans is of course every other week for 90 minutes - how a fan can have a better opinion than a manager who sees them constantly remains unanswered however)

Do you see where I'm coming from here Den? The detractors have to constantly make excuses, no matter how ridiculous, to explain things that can be easily and simply answered by accepting that Andrews is actually just a decent player.

I know I've mentioned this before but have you ever heard of Occam's razor - it's been the basis of human knowledge for about 1000 years now. It states: "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything". Now clearly here the Andrews detractors have to add a huge number of entities (excuses) to explain all these things, whereas all I have to add is a very simple "Andrews is a decent player".

Would you not agree that "Andrews is a decent player" is by far the easiest explanation for all the things mentioned above?

Jonno you are impossible.

Keep making the same points again and again and again. Ignore all replies that suggest otherwise.

He's good because Sam picks him. Ignore all replies.

He's good because the press occassionally say so. Ignore all replies.

He's good because opta stats say so. Ignore all replies.

He's good because Fulham offered some money for him. Ignore all replies.

He's good because Sam said he wont sell him. Ignore all replies.

You can't accept what lots of people are telling you - that none [not one] of those things mean anything about how good or bad Andrews actually is. People don't accept that. Don't keep repeating it. Explain why opta stats prove that he's a good Prem footballer. Prove how good press reports mean he's a good Prem footballer, etc, etc.

Either come with something new, or give it up.

[Darth Paul]

All of the original points he has highlighted above are totally valid though, yet people still want to keep arguing that he is a crap player, without being able to offer anything like the level of supporting evidence that Jonnolad has.

"He is crap because I am a football fan and I am entitled to my opinion and I say he is" doesnt seem to be quite a balanced rebuttal.

I think that unless his detractors can come up with something new, maybe they give up?

[Tris]

Either come with something new, or give it up.

I think that applies to you as much as to him!

To be honest, neither you (or LeChuck, tcjjones or the rest of the obsessives) have come up with a single reason to back up your point of view which is more valid than those of jonnolad backing up his.

And whilst he's been called a freak, an absolute tool, accused of having a personality disorder and having a gay love affair with Keith Andrews, being an irritant and being impossible ... he has just made his points politely and without insult.

I agree with darth paul and tonyoz - whoever is right or wrong about the player, in terms of this thread there is only one winner.

[Darth Paul]

Sounds like jealousy to me...

[den]

I think that applies to you as much as to him!

To be honest, neither you (or LeChuck, tcjjones or the rest of the obsessives) have come up with a single reason to back up your point of view which is more valid than those of jonnolad backing up his.

And whilst he's been called a freak, an absolute tool, accused of having a personality disorder and having a gay love affair with Keith Andrews, being an irritant and being impossible ... he has just made his points politely and without insult.

I agree with darth paul and tonyoz - whoever is right or wrong about the player, in terms of this thread there is only one winner.

Tris,

no-one can prove that he's a poor player, it's just an opinion. Jonno and now apparently you [who thought Ince was a good manager] - and others think that Sam picking him is proof that he is. There is no proof, or indeed evidence either way, it's just opinions. Read my edited previous post, - nothing that Jonno says, actually goes anywhere near proving how good, or bad, he is. You and others seem to accept this "evidence" as having some kind of merit.

Jonno though seems intent on showing stats that show he is indeed a good player.

Can't you see that?

[Jonnolad]

Jonno you are impossible.

Keep making the same points again and again and again. Ignore all replies that suggest otherwise.

He's good because Sam picks him. Ignore all replies.

He's good because the press occassionally say so. Ignore all replies.

He's good because opta stats say so. Ignore all replies.

He's good because Fulham offered some money for him. Ignore all replies.

He's good because Sam said he wont sell him. Ignore all replies.

Either come with something new, or give it up.

I don't ignore all replies Den - I clearly respond to all replies (hence people having a go at me for posting too much!).

Let's look at it how you want to look at it though - I've said Andrews is decent for all the reasons you've listed above. Now, instead of giving continued excuses why these reasons don't say he's a decent player then, why don't you just give me your reasons why he isn't a decent player.

Do you have any reasons to back up your opinion like the one's you've listed for me above that back up my opinion? You don't do you - if you have you've been keeping them oddly to yourself till now. You categorically have nothing more to back up your opinion than "he's crap because I say he is".

So whether you disagree with the points above, at least I actually have points which back up my opinion, whereas you have absolutely nothing. Surely you'd agree that makes my opinion far stronger than yours - nothing versus something is a no-brainer.

[den]

Read the post above.

[Jonnolad]

Tris,

no-one can prove that he's a poor player, it's just an opinion. Jonno and now apparently you [who thought Ince was a good manager] - and others think that Sam picking him is proof that he is. There is no proof, or indeed evidence either way, it's just opinions. Read my editted previous post, - nothing that Jonno says, actually goes anywhere near proving how good, or bad, he is.

Ok, for arguments sake, say Alex Ferguson made a bid for Andrews (before anyone goes daft there, I'm not suggesting that's going to happen). Would that be an indication either way whether he was a good or bad player? What about if Alex Ferguson then decided to play Andrews, would that be an indication either way whether he was a good or bad player? What about if he played him in crucial games, the Champions League final for instance, would that be an indication either way whether he was a good or bad player?

Of course it would, Alex Ferguson's endorsement would be an extremely strong indication that he was a good player (I can't honestly believe that you would disagree with that).

It's the same with Sam Allardyce choosing him - it's obviously a strong indication from Sam himself that he rates the player.

Or are you saying that your knowledge is, at least, as equal to Sam Allardyce or Roy Hodgson when it comes to a players ability? Well, are you Den?

[spencey7]

It's the same with Sam Allardyce choosing him - it's obviously a strong indication from Sam himself that he rates the player.

Hi Keith!

Cheers for stopping along the forum. Now if you wouldn't mind handing in a transfer request and sodding off to Fulham...?

That would be great, cheers.

All the best.

P.S. I have no idea why Allardyce rating you automatically makes you a good player - Barton, Smith, Faye, Rozenhal, Cacapa, etc, etc...?

[Jonnolad]

But Tris, he is a freak.

Yeah course I am, lol.

In other words you know I'm right but you can't stand it

[den]

Blimey Jonno. If Andrews got into Man Utd's first team and stayed there, that could be accepted by everyone that he's up to the required standard.

What's that got to do with him playing for Rovers? Not everyone* that's played for us over the years have been that good, have they?

"It's the same with Sam Allardyce choosing him - it's obviously a strong indication from Sam himself that he rates the player." - no it isn't. It's the kind of flawed statements that you are using all the time, to back up your ideas and they are wrong.

[Jonnolad]

Blimey Jonno. If Andrews got into Man Utd's first team and stayed there, that could be accepted by everyone that he's up to the required standard.

What's that got to do with him playing for Rovers? Everyone that's played for us over the years haven't been that good, have they?

"It's the same with Sam Allardyce choosing him - it's obviously a strong indication from Sam himself that he rates the player." - no it isn't.

You accept that Alex Ferguson's opinion would be an indication of the players ability, but Sam Allardyce's isn't!! What's all that about?

Does our manager's opinion not count like Alex Ferguson's then? Is Sam Allardyce just a figurehead for the club or something, but his actual managerial role is meaningless?

Clearly something doesn't add up here You can't have it both ways!

[den]

You accept that Alex Ferguson's opinion would be an indication of the players ability, but Sam Allardyce's isn't!! What's all that about?

Does our manager's opinion not count like Alex Ferguson's then? Is Sam Allardyce just a figurehead for the club or something, but his actual managerial role is meaningless?

Clearly something doesn't add up here You can't have it both ways!

You don't read what I'm saying do you?

Being in United's first team on a regular basis, would mean he's up to the task. They are all good players there. Being picked by Sam for Rovers doesn't mean that at all.

[Jonnolad]

You don't read what I'm saying do you?

Being in United's first team on a regular basis, would mean he's up to the task. They are all good players there. Being picked by Sam for Rovers doesn't mean that at all.

If Sam Allardyce choosing Andrews isn't a strong indication from Sam himself that he rates the player, then how do you suggest Sam makes his team selections - do you think it's names out of the hat on match day or something?

[Stuart]

I hope at some point you guys are going to agree to disagree on this one.

It really is a sign of the little going on with Rovers to get excited about that this thread is continually at the top of the pile when I log on.

Just to chuck my two-penneth in though:

He isn't a great player, that much is obvious, but please let's stop all this bull about him being the worst player people have ever seen in a Blackburn shirt/the Premier League/the World (delete as appropriate) because it just isn't true and just comes across as extremely churlish.

I've not be struck on Andrews since he arrived, and prior to this thread would have been happy to see him replaced, but reading all of the bile being spewed up about how bad he supposedly is, I now really want Andrews to stay just so he can have a chance to prove the doubters wrong - including me!

[T4E]

Yeah course I am, lol.

In other words you know I'm right but you can't stand it

Can't believe I'm allowing myself to get involved in this, but -

The last point you made was a hypothetical one about Sir Alex Ferguson signing Keith Andrews and playing him in the Champions League final. Yet, at the start of the sentence you pointed out yourself that Sir Alex Ferguson would never be at all interested in signing Keith Andrews.

So what do you think that proved, exactly?

Let me ask you one question. Is your entire point that since Sam Allardyce has given Keith Andrews a game in the Premier League, that means he's a good player? If not, what is your point? Please try to sum up succinctly and try to hold in the verbal diarrhea.

[onlyoneDuff]

Jonno OWNS this thread...the obsessives need to move own...Andrews scored four vital goals last year and has always given his all...whether he is premiership quality really shouldn't be debated anymore....why posters here have such a personal vendeata against one of OUR OWN PLAYERS defies belief

[4ever&ever]

Andrews scored four vital goals last year and has always given his all...whether he is premiership quality really shouldn't be debated anymore....why posters here have such a personal vendeata against one of OUR OWN PLAYERS defies belief

Exactly what I was about to post lol, anyone else who went to West Brom away and saw that late goal go in must surely agree.

[imy9]

Can't believe I'm allowing myself to get involved in this, but -

The last point you made was a hypothetical one about Sir Alex Ferguson signing Keith Andrews and playing him in the Champions League final. Yet, at the start of the sentence you pointed out yourself that Sir Alex Ferguson would never be at all interested in signing Keith Andrews.

So what do you think that proved, exactly?

Let me ask you one question. Is your entire point that since Sam Allardyce has given Keith Andrews a game in the Premier League, that means he's a good player? If not, what is your point? Please try to sum up succinctly and try to hold in the verbal diarrhea.

Believe it. On the one hand you claim not to read his posts and yet feel the need to add to a debate about points that Jonno has made (how does that work), you then very eloquently point out that a fellow member of the board is a freak and wants to have a sexual relationship with Andrews, which I must add furthered the debate greatly.

Debate: To engage in argument by discussing opposing points all I see at the moment are people attacking a member for holding a point of view and as it is different to theirs people feel the urge to insult!

[broadsword]

I hope at some point you guys are going to agree to disagree on this one.

It

Christ yeah!

Life's too short, I'd rather get on with my life, rather than make Keefy Andrews a crusade of mine. That would be an unhealthy fixation.