[Archived] Exam Results

[Majiball]

A lot of universities make sure that you don't get too many people getting 1st class degrees, or failing for that matter, by moderating exam marks. I've just finished a mathematics degree at York and this is one of the department's policies:

"Sometimes exam marks on a particular module seem notably out of line with expectations, and in this case the Departments Moderating Committee considers whether a piecewise linear transformation of the exam marks produces a truer reflection of the candidates' expected achievement."

This basically means that if everyone gets over 70% in a module then they lower everyone's mark so that you get the standard spread of results (approximately 10% first class, 55% 2.1, 25% 2.2, 15% third or lower). The aforementioned module may have had higher than usual marks because the exam was too easy or may be just because the students are more intelligent and are working harder. Either way, the final published results will look the same as they have for years.

Equivalently, the moderation of marks in exams with unusually low marks may be hiding the fact that the students aren't as intelligent as previous years.

In conclusion, if departments at other Universities employ similar policies in examinations, the spread of results at University level will remain pretty constant and are therefore not a good indication of whether or not standards are increasing.

I missed you post sorry

Your right it is employed at some universities.

The first time in your life that the scenario you describe about being in a class full of similar standard intellects is going to be at university. Its catch 22 really if you do it purely on score you will end up with mass fluctuations of results, one year you could have 50% of people getting a first and so on, some serious questions would then be asked. Put a different perspective on it person A gains an average of 90% overall clever but has to work at it, puts his life on hold to gain the best he can. Then you have person B cruises through no real effort but clever gains 70% and walks away with the same grade. Is that fair, if say 50% of the whole year gain a first as well does person A stand out as he should, no. But then the University could always give him the extra bonus part. But as it state's in your departmental policy, only when notably out of line, it would be worth asking them to define it better first.

Its down to the individual departments, Personally I have never felt that the top grade should be handed out willy nilly. It degrades the achievement if you gain a first you should be in the upper echelons of intellectual standing, I personally would have been disappointed if I was just one of 20-40% of my peers to gain a top degree. The exams should be set to challenge the student so you cannot just walk in and regurgitate information, as it is at GCSE and A-Level its a memory test, no more. Your ability to analysis and criticise and compile information is what is tested.

Most do just use a set scale with 70% and above being enough to gain a first class, but thats not easy. Exam results then dictate whether the exam/coursework set is of suitable standard, and are adjusted accordingly for next time.

As I said its catch 22 but a first class degree should be just that, it means you are first class you are on of the best and brightest, not just one of the crowd.

[Majiball]

I'm in my final year of a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery degree at a UK university and was encouraged to apply for Oxbridge but didn't...but exam standards were definitely far too low in my time. It wasn't that hard to get A's at A level and do next to nothing for the two years, even if you do have something up there, it should at least stretch you in some way and demand more of your time than A levels did. Not that I complained at the time, I had a very fun two years but there's room to make them much harder...and I've probably gone through the system a lot more recently than most in this thread.

Your post has reminded me of a lad I heard about. Now as far as I am concerned this displays a major problem within our exams.

The lad I do not know who, was sitting his Philosophy A-Level, the final essay question worth 50% of his final grade was:

Please describe/define Bravery in essay form:

This is what he did, Page 1 he wrote below I will describe bravery. that was it at the bottom he put cont, all that was on page 2 was cont and an indicator for what page it was. It was the same for 10 pages except on the bottom of the last page he wrote this is bravery.

Now what grade do you think he got, yes an A. Now while that takes balls the size of hot air balloons, its hardly fair on those who actually made an effort as opposed to what he did.

Exams well I found it like this anyway when I sat the GCSE's and A-Levels did not really test my intellectual ability but more my memory. If you where able to spurt out the text from the text book relevant to the question you got top grades, again it was not till I got to University that I found out what revision was.

[Nafe_rovers]

10 a's and 6 A* there rly not as hard as people say this was 3 years ago though!

who every says they struggled just didnt try! one of my freinds struggels but he got better grades than me !

[broadsword]

Your post has reminded me of a lad I heard about. Now as far as I am concerned this displays a major problem within our exams.

The lad I do not know who, was sitting his Philosophy A-Level, the final essay question worth 50% of his final grade was:

Please describe/define Bravery in essay form:

This is what he did, Page 1 he wrote below I will describe bravery. that was it at the bottom he put cont, all that was on page 2 was cont and an indicator for what page it was. It was the same for 10 pages except on the bottom of the last page he wrote this is bravery.

Now what grade do you think he got, yes an A. Now while that takes balls the size of hot air balloons, its hardly fair on those who actually made an effort as opposed to what he did.

Exams well I found it like this anyway when I sat the GCSE's and A-Levels did not really test my intellectual ability but more my memory. If you where able to spurt out the text from the text book relevant to the question you got top grades, again it was not till I got to University that I found out what revision was.

That story's been doing the rounds for years and years and years.

Urban myth I reckon.

[Majiball]

That story's been doing the rounds for years and years and years.

Urban myth I reckon.

You never know, though?

It would not be the first time some cocky kid has gotten away with it.

[broadsword]

I know it was in the 'papers that a kid got 1 mark in his English exam for writing "clumsy, hit shift + 8 again!! off" across his script.

He didn't get any more marks, mind you.

[Majiball]

The best story that I know to be true is that once an exam started at a university, the invigilator's checked the toilets 5 sets of notes where found behind radiators and on top of Urinals. How stupid are they?

The best part is they where hand written, all where caught! Muppet's

[Ozz]

This young student needs to study the highway code a bit...Ouch.

[Majiball]

Look before you leap and all that.

[thenodrog]

The best story that I know to be true is that once an exam started at a university, the invigilator's checked the toilets 5 sets of notes where found behind radiators and on top of Urinals. How stupid are they?

The best part is they where hand written, all where caught! Muppet's

Wouldn't be cheating if they didn't go to the toilets though would it.

[colin]

Well I cannot accept that Darwin's 'Survival of the fittest' can ever be interpreted to mean that the school leavers each successive year make those from the year before seem backward.

We know evoluition can barely make kids more intelligent in centuries never mind successive years, and teachers likewise.

Well Theno, I don't accept that theory either, not least because I haven't proposed it. You suggest that I have and you are wrong. Which rather denigrates your powers of rational arguement.

I won't even start on your spelling prowess, because we all know where that will lead us to.

So over to you Colin, and this time do at least attempt to provide a possible explanation for the continuous annual leap in examination grades.

A possible explanation is that the pupils are being better taught for the examinations themselves. That pupils who are not likely to pass the exams are being channelled into other avenues, leaving the ones who are likely to succeed to sit the exams. Possibly this is all encouraged by the current fixation on targets.

So over to you Thenodrog, and this time do at least attempt to provide a possible explanation for the continuous annual leap in examination grades being due to the exams getting easier. Your answer will be marked by your use of verifiable data and research.

[S15]

Out of interest Drog, what is it you do (employment wise) that makes you so fixated with your own reflection? Or is your self adoring unrelated to you life achievements?

[nowthen]

I drove past Witton Park School the other day and they have a big custom made banner celebrating their academic success. It includes...'our best ever GCSE's 70% 5 A*-C.' Irony?

[Majiball]

Wouldn't be cheating if they didn't go to the toilets though would it.

Intent is enough IMO you don't hid notes if your not prepared to do it. Call it conspiracy.

A possible explanation is that the pupils are being better taught for the examinations themselves. That pupils who are not likely to pass the exams are being channelled into other avenues, leaving the ones who are likely to succeed to sit the exams. Possibly this is all encouraged by the current fixation on targets.

So over to you Thenodrog, and this time do at least attempt to provide a possible explanation for the continuous annual leap in examination grades being due to the exams getting easier. Your answer will be marked by your use of verifiable data and research.

So you advocate teaching to pass the exam over teaching the subject?? I posted links to research done by universities into the standard drop where they published (more than one uni) that there research showed that a C 20+ years ago would now be an A. Is that verifiable enough, the introduction of aptitude tests at uni's for entry because they do not feel A-levels are good indicators anymore?

You also discount the comments made in this thread by teachers, and employers who have stated they do not feel things have improved. You do not respond to those posts I wonder why?

You have taken this very personally no-one is aiming at the students, but the system! There is a huge difference as I have said already you can only over come what is put in front of you.

[colin]

So you advocate teaching to pass the exam over teaching the subject??

Majiball,

No. I said I thought that that was happening. I did not say that I advocated it. Or indeed agreed with it.

You have taken this very personally

I certainly have. When my neice does really well in her exams and the usual doom-mongers denigrate her efforts I get a little bit cheesed off. Especially when the usual doom-mongers have no evidence to back up their claims.

you can only over come what is put in front of you.

Too true. I agree with you .

[S15]

I certainly have. When my neice does really well in her exams and the usual doom-mongers denigrate her efforts I get a little bit cheesed off. Especially when the usual doom-mongers have no evidence to back up their claims.

Colin, as previously stated, I know teachers and markers who have confirmed alot of what has been suggested in this thread. The suggestion that silibus' has been altered to give students a much better chance of getting good marks in exams. And this in most peoples opinion within the profession has come at a sacrifice to the actual content contained within these silibus.'

Either way colin, teenagers don't leave with the marks your neice got unless they are intelligent. However, if you want the harsh reality of would she have got the same marks ten years ago, then the answer would most probably be no.

You can get grotty and defensive as much as you want, but it doesn't change it. GCSE's are worth ###### all in the bigger picture, it is just the first gateway to further education. Let's see what A-levels bring. These are much tougher courses and examinations, made tougher by the more leanient attendence responsibilities, and the access to constant clubbing and partying.

[thenodrog]

I certainly have. When my neice does really well in her exams and the usual doom-mongers denigrate her efforts I get a little bit cheesed off. Especially when the usual doom-mongers have no evidence to back up their claims.

How many times does it need to be repeated? That is exactly the point Colin, virtually every kid does well now. Tell you what if teenagers are so much more intelligent nowadays as you insist then exams must be made more difficult in order to sort the wheat from the chaff. Surely that would then prevent people viewing your neice's commendable results with complete indifference as you seem so aghast to discover. Obvious isn't it?

[jim mk2]

Colin, as previously stated, I know teachers and markers who have confirmed alot of what has been suggested in this thread. The suggestion that silibus' has been altered to give students a much better chance of getting good marks in exams. And this in most peoples opinion within the profession has come at a sacrifice to the actual content contained within these silibus.'

Spelling was obviously off your syllabus when you were at "uni".

[S15]

Not much use in a performing arts degree I guess Jim...

However, I did get an A grade in English language A-Level..

And they say exams are getting easier...

[thenodrog]

Not much use in a performing arts degree I guess Jim...

However, I did get an A grade in English language A-Level..

And they say exams are getting easier...

Silly Bus / Silly Toe ........ Philipl will have a field day.

'Performing arts degree'. What doors does that open Shillito? Is it mainly for a career in TV work?

[blue phil]

He's hoping to get a job with Colin in the transport sector .........working on sillibus lanes

[colin]

How many times does it need to be repeated? That is exactly the point Colin, virtually every kid does well now.

Because, as mentioned in my previous post, pupils are being taught to pass exams. Those that are unlikely to pass the exams are not being entered. It maybe all to do with the "target culture" that our current government is obsessed with.

Tell you what if teenagers are so much more intelligent nowadays as you insist

You're doing again, inventing opinions and attributing them to people and asking them to argue against them *. I have not said that "teenagers are so much more intelligent nowadays."

Surely that would then prevent people viewing your neice's commendable results with complete indifference

I very much doubt that my neice's results would alter your mind-set of black negativity of everything.

Anyway, just to cheer myself up from your black cloud of rain.....................

*.

Theno,

You keep geese. I really don't want to hear your denials of the acccusations of how you have carnel knowledge of these animals. So keep your denials to yourself. We don't want to hear them. And as what you get up to with your neighbours litter of piglets is beyond belief.

This is fun.

[roversmum]

Spelling was obviously off your syllabus when you were at "uni".

That is so not funny - not your remark Jim but the fact that someone who can't spell syllabus got an A Level in English. I truly despair.

I noticed the there/their/they're syndrome had passed over to the Lancashire Telegraph the other day. There is truly no hope.

[SouthAussieRover]

carnel

It's spelt carnal.

[S15]

That is so not funny - not your remark Jim but the fact that someone who can't spell syllabus got an A Level in English. I truly despair.

I noticed the there/their/they're syndrome had passed over to the Lancashire Telegraph the other day. There is truly no hope.

Excuse me?

Very few people have perfect spelling abilities. An English Language A-Level is about far far more than just spelling, and to achieve an A grade you must have produced a number of very high quality pieces of work, as well as performing very well in the various exams.

Do you think a really good piece with 90-95% perfect spelling is going to be disregarded? No.

So hush please.