[Archived] 2 Million Unemployed By Christmas

[colin]

I have always wondered how refusing to do your job somehow proves one is worthy of being listened to about your problems regarding said job.

Rebelmswar: Quite simply, it doesn't. Going on strike is not an easy option, there is the loss of pay and, almost inevitably the next few days are spent playing "catch-up" with the back-log. It is a sign of frustration with either the employer or, in this case, the government. Are you so anti-strike that you cannot envisage a situation where your employer treats you so badly that you will not just accept the situation and not roll over and submit?

There is one fairly small teachers' union that has never gone on strike until Thursday. Doesn't that make you think something may be ammiss?

I've worked for nearly 30 years in the public sector and over those years I've accrued rights. The British Government has already taken away some of those (ie, it had back-dated what I have already "earned" and taken it away from me.) I, and tens of thousands of others are mightly annoyed at that.

If your employer decided that it couldn't afford to pay you at the same level that it currently does and then decided to recoup some of your pay going back to when you first started working I suspect that you would not be a happy bunny.

didn't a majority of civil servants ignore the strike and go in to work?

Mattyblue: Usual spin. Where I work there are 80 of us. Five turned in and disgraced themselves. The five leeches will take any positives that we get, but are sponging off the backs of the 75 who made an effort. To my mind they might as well go round the office stealing other people's wallets & purses. I'm with Abbey on this one.

[rebelmswar]

Rebelmswar: Quite simply, it doesn't. Going on strike is not an easy option, there is the loss of pay and, almost inevitably the next few days are spent playing "catch-up" with the back-log. It is a sign of frustration with either the employer or, in this case, the government. Are you so anti-strike that you cannot envisage a situation where your employer treats you so badly that you will not just accept the situation and not roll over and submit?

There is one fairly small teachers' union that has never gone on strike until Thursday. Doesn't that make you think something may be ammiss?

I've worked for nearly 30 years in the public sector and over those years I've accrued rights. The British Government has already taken away some of those (ie, it had back-dated what I have already "earned" and taken it away from me.) I, and tens of thousands of others are mightly annoyed at that.

If your employer decided that it couldn't afford to pay you at the same level that it currently does and then decided to recoup some of your pay going back to when you first started working I suspect that you would not be a happy bunny.

Firstly let me thank you for the reasonable reply.

I don't think I am an ultracon or anything like that, I firmly believe that you have the right to, pretty much, do whatever you like as long as it doesn't harm another person or take away from that other persons right do also do what makes them happy. I dispise intrusive government in any form be it right leaning or left.

You are right about the government, any government, taking anything back from people who signed a contract to do something is wrong. Very wrong. However I also feel that refusing to do what you say you will do is also very wrong. Strikes and trying to hold the government to ransom by not teaching children that are there to learn and under the care of the teacher is no way to make others sympathetic to your views.

Our Western society is on the brink of a very very bad time. Greece should be seen as an example of this spiral that we are all on. Jobs are very precious things now and they will become much rarer as the year goes on and worse the year after.

Things have to change, and pretty fast. Unions are beautiful things in theory, but in practice they become very parasitical. The death of many of this nations industries and the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs can be directly linked by unions turning companies into unprofitable endeavors. When an employee demands so much that it is no longer possible to sustain the actual job itself, there is a serious problem. Products create jobs, wealth, and the drive and desire for more wealth, create jobs.

It is painfully obvious that spending is out of control and is now necessary to sustain people that now firmly believe that they are entitled to get money from the government. These people who hopefully just want to work but can't, due to China, India, whatever, are the mass that will suffer soon if we can not dig ourselves out of this hole.

Perhaps grandfathering the older government employees and changing the promises to the newer employees is the only fair way to go about this problem, I don't know. But the fact remains that the country is spending far far too much money for the small amount of industry, commerce, etc to pay for on its already inflated, and highly counter productive, tax intake.

Who loses out? What do you cut? I tell you, if the government cuts money to people who subsist purely off of the governments back we will see horrors like England has never known.

Would it not be possible for the unions and the government make concessions to each other? Take some cuts in certain areas for the protection of the country as a whole?

[thenodrog]

I think you and I are old enough to put our hands up and apologise when we make mistakes. It's easy on the internet to make a mistake and/or be rude to someone. It's also too easy to go away and hide. It's a bit more honest & polite to acknowlege mistakes.

As I hope I have done. Just a matter of common courtesy really.

You'll have to explain that to him Colin. Jim doesn't even understand the concept never mind practice common courtesy.

[thenodrog]

Are you so anti-strike that you cannot envisage a situation where your employer treats you so badly that you will not just accept the situation and not roll over and submit?

Colin you need to get off the state nipple and grow some. You have one life. This is not a rehearsal. If you are being poorly rewarded go and get a job with better terms and conditions. If you are so bitter then you must have applied for other jobs? Surely a man with your abilities Colin will easily double or even treble his pay in the private sector. Didn't you know we are all as rich as Croesus out here in the real world paying our way, paying your way by paddling our own canoes?

Mattyblue: Usual spin. Where I work there are 80 of us. Five turned in and disgraced themselves. The five leeches will take any positives that we get, but are sponging off the backs of the 75 who made an effort. To my mind they might as well go round the office stealing other people's wallets & purses. I'm with Abbey on this one.

Bully boy tactics of intimidation are OK are they? Are you against people having the right to make up their own minds?

Firstly let me thank you for the reasonable reply.

I don't think I am an ultracon or anything like that, I firmly believe that you have the right to, pretty much, do whatever you like as long as it doesn't harm another person or take away from that other persons right do also do what makes them happy. I dispise intrusive government in any form be it right leaning or left.

You are right about the government, any government, taking anything back from people who signed a contract to do something is wrong. Very wrong. However I also feel that refusing to do what you say you will do is also very wrong. Strikes and trying to hold the government to ransom by not teaching children that are there to learn and under the care of the teacher is no way to make others sympathetic to your views.

Our Western society is on the brink of a very very bad time. Greece should be seen as an example of this spiral that we are all on. Jobs are very precious things now and they will become much rarer as the year goes on and worse the year after.

Things have to change, and pretty fast. Unions are beautiful things in theory, but in practice they become very parasitical. The death of many of this nations industries and the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs can be directly linked by unions turning companies into unprofitable endeavors. When an employee demands so much that it is no longer possible to sustain the actual job itself, there is a serious problem. Products create jobs, wealth, and the drive and desire for more wealth, create jobs.

It is painfully obvious that spending is out of control and is now necessary to sustain people that now firmly believe that they are entitled to get money from the government. These people who hopefully just want to work but can't, due to China, India, whatever, are the mass that will suffer soon if we can not dig ourselves out of this hole.

Perhaps grandfathering the older government employees and changing the promises to the newer employees is the only fair way to go about this problem, I don't know. But the fact remains that the country is spending far far too much money for the small amount of industry, commerce, etc to pay for on its already inflated, and highly counter productive, tax intake.

Who loses out? What do you cut? I tell you, if the government cuts money to people who subsist purely off of the governments back we will see horrors like England has never known.

Would it not be possible for the unions and the government make concessions to each other? Take some cuts in certain areas for the protection of the country as a whole?

Thats way too sensible for this mboard Reb.

[colin]

If you are being poorly rewarded go and get a job with better terms and conditions.

Bully boy tactics of intimidation are OK are they? Are you against people having the right to make up their own minds?

Oh Thenodrog, I'm disappointed in you. You've reverted back to your silly, bad old ways again by inventing comments, attributing them to other posters, and then taking the opposite view.

Please let me know where I said "I think I am being poorly rewarded."

Similarly will you let me know what "bully boy tactics of intimidation" you think I am employing?

Thanks, and good luck with your canoe-paddling thing. Whatever that is.

[rebelmswar]

Thats way too sensible for this mboard Reb.

I honestly feel that it is becoming far too late.

There has been talk for some time in military circles that there will be a time, and soon, that we will have to make a choice. A very hard one.

This whole thing with the IMF chief and the maid...

There is a very thin line between prosperity and poverty in regards to nations. Very thin and ours, the west, is stretching.

[jim mk2]

Our Western society is on the brink of a very very bad time. Greece should be seen as an example of this spiral that we are all on. Jobs are very precious things now and they will become much rarer as the year goes on and worse the year after.

Things have to change, and pretty fast. Unions are beautiful things in theory, but in practice they become very parasitical. The death of many of this nations industries and the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs can be directly linked by unions turning companies into unprofitable endeavors. When an employee demands so much that it is no longer possible to sustain the actual job itself, there is a serious problem. Products create jobs, wealth, and the drive and desire for more wealth, create jobs.

It is painfully obvious that spending is out of control and is now necessary to sustain people that now firmly believe that they are entitled to get money from the government. These people who hopefully just want to work but can't, due to China, India, whatever, are the mass that will suffer soon if we can not dig ourselves out of this hole.

Perhaps grandfathering the older government employees and changing the promises to the newer employees is the only fair way to go about this problem, I don't know. But the fact remains that the country is spending far far too much money for the small amount of industry, commerce, etc to pay for on its already inflated, and highly counter productive, tax intake.

Who loses out? What do you cut? I tell you, if the government cuts money to people who subsist purely off of the governments back we will see horrors like England has never known.

Would it not be possible for the unions and the government make concessions to each other? Take some cuts in certain areas for the protection of the country as a whole?

There are so many holes in the above it's difficult to know where to start but to pick up on two points:

First, many manufacturing industries have disappeared in this country because of poor management and poor products, not because of the trade unions. The car industry is one example of classic British mis-management . The French, German and Italian car industries are all thriving because they are well managed yet they are also heavily unionised - workers are paid well and enjoy good working conditions. Blaming the unions for the demise of manufacturing industry in Britain is a classic knee-jerk reaction of the right.

Second, spending is not "out of control" . We have a large public deficit because the corporate tax intake collapsed during the 2007-09 worldwide recession (the worst since the 1930s) and the Labour government successfully used quantitavive easing (printed money) to keep the economy afloat until it finally emerged from recession in 2009.

Public sector workers are going on strike because they rightly feel they are not to blame for a crisis that was caused by the greed and stupidity of the private sector. No one is arguing that the deficit needs to be tackled but people rightly see the speed and severity of these cuts as unnecessary and motivated by political dogma.

There is another way to close the deficit - by raising taxes on the rich, closing tax loopholes, cutting tax allowances, clamping down on bank bonuses, hitting banks with a windfall tax and forcing the corporate sector to repay the billions of taxes it evades each year. All of these would be fairer than hitting the weak and the vulnerable and those who cannot fight back - but then Tory governments do not know the meaning of the word fairness.

You'll have to explain that to him Colin. Jim doesn't even understand the concept never mind practice common courtesy.

Oh, the irony, the irony.

[rebelmswar]

There are so many holes in the above it's difficult to know where to start but to pick up on two points:

First, many manufacturing industries have disappeared in this country because of poor management and poor products, not because of the trade unions. The car industry is one example of classic British mis-management . The French, German and Italian car industries are all thriving because they are well managed yet they are also heavily unionised - workers are paid well and enjoy good working conditions. Blaming the unions for the demise of manufacturing industry in Britain is a classic knee-jerk reaction of the right.

Second, spending is not "out of control" . We have a large public deficit because the corporate tax intake collapsed during the 2007-09 worldwide recession (the worst since the 1930s) and the Labour government successfully used quantitavive easing (printed money) to keep the economy afloat until it finally emerged from recession in 2009.

Public sector workers are going on strike because they rightly feel they are not to blame for a crisis that was caused by the greed and stupidity of the private sector. No one is arguing that the deficit needs to be tackled but people rightly see the speed and severity of these cuts as unnecessary and motivated by political dogma.

There is another way to close the deficit - by raising taxes on the rich, closing tax loopholes, cutting tax allowances, clamping down on bank bonuses, hitting banks with a windfall tax and forcing the corporate sector to repay the billions of taxes it evades each year. All of these would be fairer than hitting the weak and the vulnerable and those who cannot fight back - but then Tory governments do not know the meaning of the word fairness.

I am sure there are holes there; I dont doubt that at all. You have plenty yourself.

Mismanagement is a possibility, but let us see what the trade unions themselves told the investigators for the House of Commons report on the success and failure of the UK car manufacturing industry -

"The trade unions, however, suggested that labour costs in

the Czech and Slovak Republics were about a third of those in Western Europe and they

quoted labour costs of €6 per hour for Slovak workers as compared with €2526 per hour

for UK workers.34 The trade unions argued that it was these costs, rather than the growth

in the local market, that were encouraging some companies to close their factories in

Western Europe and move production eastwards, and that it might be only a matter of

time before other firms, such as the Japanese manufacturers, followed suit.35 Indeed,

Toyota is already manufacturing jointly with PSA in the Czech Republic."

Could it be that a prohibitive wage and benefits package for UK workers made it cost prohibitive to manufacture a vehicle there? I have to say again that I believe in my heart that unions are needed and, just like communism, theoretically a good idea, but they can overstretch the industry that the members work for, and in the end, destroy what they represent.

I will give you Germany, but Italy's production dropped 9.10% and France 3.20% at the same time that the UK's vehicular malaise came to a head.

Now I wonder why Germany, a highly unionized auto manufacturing area too as you state, had positive growth. Lets see what the leader of one of the largest unions in Germany said about union problems in the U.S, that are less prohibitive than the UK, "The costs for health insurance for General Motors in the US have increased 15 percent this year, and the company had to pay nearly $10 billion into pension funds. Therefore, those who say Germany is too expensive a location for General Motors should really first look at their own front door.

Now lets see what Germany has done to maintain profitability and thrive, again your words, "There has been a major extension of so-called "short-time working," where workers are sent home for extended periods on considerably reduced pay. In November 2008, some 135,000 workers were officially on short-time working. According to the Bundesagentur für Arbeit (BA, Federal Labour Agency), in January alone employers registered 290,600 on short-time working in some 10,600 workplaces. The cumulative figure for those on short-time working since October 2008 now stands at 774,600, affecting some 23,300 workplaces with the auto industry, engineering and metalworking industries being particularly hard hit."

"BMW has placed 26,000 workers on short-time working, affecting 25 percent of its workforce. The company is throttling back production in February and March, producing 38,000 less cars."

The list goes on and on. BMW, Daimler, Audi, VW, Opel, all of them shed jobs and then hired short term workers to shed costs and maintain any semblance of profitability.

I contest that blaming the rich is a knee jerk reaction of the left.

Please explain to me how the private sector, the only area around that can actually create real jobs and are pretty much the sole provider of funds, in the form of already hideously high taxes, to pay the teachers, police, military, unemployed, etc., can be blamed for the current level of government spending? If you mean the banks being literally forced under the threat of being labeled uncaring at best, and racist at worst, to approve loans to people that could ill afford to pay them back, then you have to look squarely in the face of your own political faction.

Taxing the rich... Do they not pay enough already? Jim if you paid as much in taxes, comparatively speaking, as the rich do, you would be a conservative too. Bonuses, are they not the very things that make people want to excel? Loop holes, windfalls, taking money overseas, are all caused by ridiculous taxes that make investment in the parent country complete madness. Slash corporate taxes, especially in industry and there would be a massive influx of money coming back to the country.

Businesses create jobs, entrepreneurs create jobs, tax hikes and governments destroy them.

[Stuart]

Would it not be possible for the unions and the government make concessions to each other? Take some cuts in certain areas for the protection of the country as a whole?

From the little I've read on the subject, isn't that the main reason for the strike action? I.e. the government weren't even prepared to negotiate any concessions with the unions?

Your post immediately preceding this one makes a very compelling case, btw. Good post.

[thenodrog]

Thanks, and good luck with your canoe-paddling thing. Whatever that is.

Something that you will have no concept of and would never dare even attempt. You'd need weaning first and even then you'd have to get off your arse and grow some ######. Much better to paddle a canoe than wallow around in mud on the shore for my 3 score and ten.

You lot stamp your feet and strike like spoiled children that have dropped their lolly out of the pram, but I'll wager you've never had a work related sleepless night in all your life. I'd imagine that you've never even made an important decision as you push paper around your desk. Tell me Colin have you ever employed staff and had to find their wages every week/month? I can tell you it's a sobering experience. How about paying out for somebodies holiday / maternity / severence / redundancy / sickness? Ironic that I have to do all that and pay my own too don't you think? Have you ever lost serious money through no fault of your own but because someone defaults in payment? I'm sure that the biggest decision you will ever have made in your entire life will involve buying your house ... and you could easily rent one of those council owned ones. The likes of you have simply lost all touch with reallity

Obviously I could do what I've advised you to do and pack it in and get a job in the public sector making links out of paper clips and spending my working days wondering how much time I'll have between retirement and death. But to do that I'd have to settle for living in a box on an estate of boxes and a dull and reduced lifestyle so it's each to his own eh? Difference is I don't moan about my lot.

btw excellent post Reb. It'll go right over some peoples heads of course and the rest will pay as much attention to it as the band on the Titanic paid to the iceberg.... same as it ever was.

[thenodrog]

There are so many holes in the above it's difficult to know where to start but to pick up on two points:

First, many manufacturing industries have disappeared in this country because of poor management and poor products, not because of the trade unions. The car industry is one example of classic British mis-management . The French, German and Italian car industries are all thriving because they are well managed yet they are also heavily unionised - workers are paid well and enjoy good working conditions. Blaming the unions for the demise of manufacturing industry in Britain is a classic knee-jerk reaction of the right.

Your memory is so much different to mine. I rem in the 60's and 70's left wing political agitators and activists infiltrated the unions and made manufacturing industry and state owned industry the battleground for political change. Disrupt and destroy was the intention and disruption and destruction the result. The result was the 3 day working week, power cuts and the winter of discontent where not even the dead were buried etc etc How tf could management be entirely blamed for that?

The tactic worked though cos the political change came about the minute St Margaret was elected. Not entirely sure that it was the change the red's sought though.

[Kelbo]

I am sure there are holes there; I don’t doubt that at all. You have plenty yourself.

Mismanagement is a possibility, but let us see what the trade unions themselves told the investigators for the House of Commons report on the success and failure of the UK car manufacturing industry -

"The trade unions, however, suggested that labour costs in

the Czech and Slovak Republics were about a third of those in Western Europe and they

quoted labour costs of €6 per hour for Slovak workers as compared with €25–26 per hour

for UK workers.34 The trade unions argued that it was these costs, rather than the growth

in the local market, that were encouraging some companies to close their factories in

Western Europe and move production eastwards, and that it might be only a matter of

time before other firms, such as the Japanese manufacturers, followed suit.35 Indeed,

Toyota is already manufacturing jointly with PSA in the Czech Republic."

Could it be that a prohibitive wage and benefits package for UK workers made it cost prohibitive to manufacture a vehicle there? I have to say again that I believe in my heart that unions are needed and, just like communism, theoretically a good idea, but they can overstretch the industry that the members work for, and in the end, destroy what they represent.

I will give you Germany, but Italy's production dropped 9.10% and France 3.20% at the same time that the UK's vehicular malaise came to a head.

Now I wonder why Germany, a highly unionized auto manufacturing area too as you state, had positive growth. Let’s see what the leader of one of the largest unions in Germany said about union problems in the U.S, that are less prohibitive than the UK, "The costs for health insurance for General Motors in the US have increased 15 percent this year, and the company had to pay nearly $10 billion into pension funds. Therefore, those who say Germany is too expensive a location for General Motors should really first look at their own front door.”

Now let’s see what Germany has done to maintain profitability and thrive, again your words, "There has been a major extension of so-called "short-time working," where workers are sent home for extended periods on considerably reduced pay. In November 2008, some 135,000 workers were officially on short-time working. According to the Bundesagentur für Arbeit (BA, Federal Labour Agency), in January alone employers registered 290,600 on short-time working in some 10,600 workplaces. The cumulative figure for those on short-time working since October 2008 now stands at 774,600, affecting some 23,300 workplaces with the auto industry, engineering and metalworking industries being particularly hard hit."

"BMW has placed 26,000 workers on short-time working, affecting 25 percent of its workforce. The company is throttling back production in February and March, producing 38,000 less cars."

The list goes on and on. BMW, Daimler, Audi, VW, Opel, all of them shed jobs and then hired short term workers to shed costs and maintain any semblance of profitability.

I contest that blaming the rich is a knee jerk reaction of the left.

Please explain to me how the private sector, the only area around that can actually create real jobs and are pretty much the sole provider of funds, in the form of already hideously high taxes, to pay the teachers, police, military, unemployed, etc., can be blamed for the current level of government spending? If you mean the banks being literally forced under the threat of being labeled uncaring at best, and racist at worst, to approve loans to people that could ill afford to pay them back, then you have to look squarely in the face of your own political faction.

Taxing the rich... Do they not pay enough already? Jim if you paid as much in taxes, comparatively speaking, as the rich do, you would be a conservative too. Bonuses, are they not the very things that make people want to excel? Loop holes, windfalls, taking money overseas, are all caused by ridiculous taxes that make investment in the parent country complete madness. Slash corporate taxes, especially in industry and there would be a massive influx of money coming back to the country.

Businesses create jobs, entrepreneurs create jobs, tax hikes and governments destroy them.

Rebels, you surprise me, behind the one liners and amusing posts, there is a shrewd business brain, top post!

[SouthAussieRover]

Or a cut and paste job?

Sorry Reb Forgot the

[rebelmswar]

Or a cut and paste job?

Sorry Reb Forgot the

The quotes are cut and pasted, that I admit.

I read far too much about the downfall of nations and the causes for me ever to sleep well.

[DP]

If you mean the banks being literally forced under the threat of being labeled uncaring at best, and racist at worst, to approve loans to people that could ill afford to pay them back, then you have to look squarely in the face of your own political faction.

Please tell me Rebels you don't actually believe that?

[Mattyblue]

I am sure there are holes there; I don’t doubt that at all. You have plenty yourself.

Mismanagement is a possibility, but let us see what the trade unions themselves told the investigators for the House of Commons report on the success and failure of the UK car manufacturing industry -

"The trade unions, however, suggested that labour costs in

the Czech and Slovak Republics were about a third of those in Western Europe and they

quoted labour costs of €6 per hour for Slovak workers as compared with €25–26 per hour

for UK workers.34 The trade unions argued that it was these costs, rather than the growth

in the local market, that were encouraging some companies to close their factories in

Western Europe and move production eastwards, and that it might be only a matter of

time before other firms, such as the Japanese manufacturers, followed suit.35 Indeed,

Toyota is already manufacturing jointly with PSA in the Czech Republic."

Could it be that a prohibitive wage and benefits package for UK workers made it cost prohibitive to manufacture a vehicle there? I have to say again that I believe in my heart that unions are needed and, just like communism, theoretically a good idea, but they can overstretch the industry that the members work for, and in the end, destroy what they represent.

I will give you Germany, but Italy's production dropped 9.10% and France 3.20% at the same time that the UK's vehicular malaise came to a head.

Now I wonder why Germany, a highly unionized auto manufacturing area too as you state, had positive growth. Let’s see what the leader of one of the largest unions in Germany said about union problems in the U.S, that are less prohibitive than the UK, "The costs for health insurance for General Motors in the US have increased 15 percent this year, and the company had to pay nearly $10 billion into pension funds. Therefore, those who say Germany is too expensive a location for General Motors should really first look at their own front door.”

Now let’s see what Germany has done to maintain profitability and thrive, again your words, "There has been a major extension of so-called "short-time working," where workers are sent home for extended periods on considerably reduced pay. In November 2008, some 135,000 workers were officially on short-time working. According to the Bundesagentur für Arbeit (BA, Federal Labour Agency), in January alone employers registered 290,600 on short-time working in some 10,600 workplaces. The cumulative figure for those on short-time working since October 2008 now stands at 774,600, affecting some 23,300 workplaces with the auto industry, engineering and metalworking industries being particularly hard hit."

"BMW has placed 26,000 workers on short-time working, affecting 25 percent of its workforce. The company is throttling back production in February and March, producing 38,000 less cars."

The list goes on and on. BMW, Daimler, Audi, VW, Opel, all of them shed jobs and then hired short term workers to shed costs and maintain any semblance of profitability.

I contest that blaming the rich is a knee jerk reaction of the left.

Please explain to me how the private sector, the only area around that can actually create real jobs and are pretty much the sole provider of funds, in the form of already hideously high taxes, to pay the teachers, police, military, unemployed, etc., can be blamed for the current level of government spending? If you mean the banks being literally forced under the threat of being labeled uncaring at best, and racist at worst, to approve loans to people that could ill afford to pay them back, then you have to look squarely in the face of your own political faction.

Taxing the rich... Do they not pay enough already? Jim if you paid as much in taxes, comparatively speaking, as the rich do, you would be a conservative too. Bonuses, are they not the very things that make people want to excel? Loop holes, windfalls, taking money overseas, are all caused by ridiculous taxes that make investment in the parent country complete madness. Slash corporate taxes, especially in industry and there would be a massive influx of money coming back to the country.

Businesses create jobs, entrepreneurs create jobs, tax hikes and governments destroy them.

Read that jim and then read it again. If you honestly think we can sort out the debt by simply 'closing the loopholes' and taxing high earners even more than I fear for your sanity.

[tashor]

Under labour in the 1970s, direct tax rates for the highest earners was 83 per cent. On top of that, there was a special tax on dividends of an extra 15 per cent - making a maximum of 98 per cent. Between 1973 and 1979, the highest-paying one per cent of taxpayers contributed 11 per cent of income tax revenue.

In 1988, the tories brought the top rate of tax down to 40 per cent on top of an earlier abolition of the extra tax on dividens. The result of this tax cut, though, was not what labour expected. Instead of the rich contributing less to revenue, they contributed more. The share of income tax contributed by the richest one per cent rose and kept on rising. The richest contributed 21 per cent of all income tax revenues - nearly twice as much as they did in the 1970s.

Clearly the best way to REDUCE tax payed by the rich is to raise the tax rate as some duffers here have suggested

The clear way to generate taxes to pay for public services and create jobs is, of course, as reb has told us, by cutting tax rates of the rich.................

[broadsword]

Read this on another forum, it made me chuckle, even Jim wouldn't go this far!

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Commie

Yesterday 19:38

I cannot believe people take what this government of multi millionaires says as actually being true...

Let's just get the facts out...

Firstly there is no real deficit. If the £120bn of unpaid/avoided/evaded tax was actually collected from 'rich' people/companies there wouldn't be any need to cut anything. Back in the 40's and 50's the deficit was at least twice today's and we built the National Health Service, Schools and the welfare state.

Secondly the average pension of a public sector worker is £7000 per year and the average in the private sector is £7800.

Thirdly the Hutton report says that public sector pensions are affordable as things are now - that's because they were changed under 'new' labour in 2005.

Lastly the whole point here is to increase EVERYBODIES pension provision. Howcome countries like Chile can provide decent pensions for all and we can't? Answer they make everyone pay 10% of their income into one...

Stop listening to the tory propaganda, society is most important not right wing cuts to line the pockets of the few...

[colin]

Something that you will have no concept of and would never dare even attempt. You'd need weaning first and even then you'd have to get off your arse and grow some ######. Much better to paddle a canoe than wallow around in mud on the shore for my 3 score and ten.

You lot stamp your feet and strike like spoiled children that have dropped their lolly out of the pram, but I'll wager you've never had a work related sleepless night in all your life. I'd imagine that you've never even made an important decision as you push paper around your desk. Tell me Colin have you ever employed staff and had to find their wages every week/month? I can tell you it's a sobering experience. How about paying out for somebodies holiday / maternity / severence / redundancy / sickness? Ironic that I have to do all that and pay my own too don't you think? Have you ever lost serious money through no fault of your own but because someone defaults in payment? I'm sure that the biggest decision you will ever have made in your entire life will involve buying your house ... and you could easily rent one of those council owned ones. The likes of you have simply lost all touch with reallity

Obviously I could do what I've advised you to do and pack it in and get a job in the public sector making links out of paper clips and spending my working days wondering how much time I'll have between retirement and death. But to do that I'd have to settle for living in a box on an estate of boxes and a dull and reduced lifestyle so it's each to his own eh? Difference is I don't moan about my lot.

Classic! Have some Horlicks and a good night's sleep. You'll feel better in the morning. Speak to your dentist about a teeth protector to help you stop you grinding your teeth at night.

Cheers matey

Colin

[jim mk2]

Something that you will have no concept of and would never dare even attempt. You'd need weaning first and even then you'd have to get off your arse and grow some ######. Much better to paddle a canoe than wallow around in mud on the shore for my 3 score and ten.

You lot stamp your feet and strike like spoiled children that have dropped their lolly out of the pram, but I'll wager you've never had a work related sleepless night in all your life. I'd imagine that you've never even made an important decision as you push paper around your desk. Tell me Colin have you ever employed staff and had to find their wages every week/month? I can tell you it's a sobering experience. How about paying out for somebodies holiday / maternity / severence / redundancy / sickness? Ironic that I have to do all that and pay my own too don't you think? Have you ever lost serious money through no fault of your own but because someone defaults in payment? I'm sure that the biggest decision you will ever have made in your entire life will involve buying your house ... and you could easily rent one of those council owned ones. The likes of you have simply lost all touch with reallity

Obviously I could do what I've advised you to do and pack it in and get a job in the public sector making links out of paper clips and spending my working days wondering how much time I'll have between retirement and death. But to do that I'd have to settle for living in a box on an estate of boxes and a dull and reduced lifestyle so it's each to his own eh? Difference is I don't moan about my lot.

btw excellent post Reb. It'll go right over some peoples heads of course and the rest will pay as much attention to it as the band on the Titanic paid to the iceberg.... same as it ever was.

Wonderful, Alf.

I feel sorry for the punters in the back of your cab.

[Mattyblue]

Thing is Bryan, many on the left believe exactly that- including much of the Labour Party. Scary init.

[thenodrog]

Wonderful, Alf.

I feel sorry for the punters in the back of your cab.

I feel sorry for people who have to cross their legs on the landing.....

.... That is of course a lie and simply intended to cause insult, hurt and anger to work shy left wing lunatics.

[broadsword]

Thing is Bryan, many on the left believe exactly that- including much of the Labour Party. Scary init.

How can they say there is no deficit? They're absolutely off their rockers.

The problem is if you try to charge the rich more tax they simply bugger off and you get 0 tax from them. It's the people below who pay a disproportionate amount.

Whilst I think the Tory party is the party for the privileged few, I'm glad we no longer have reckless Labour in charge.

[RovertheHill]

There is another way to close the deficit - by raising taxes on the rich, closing tax loopholes, cutting tax allowances, clamping down on bank bonuses, hitting banks with a windfall tax and forcing the corporate sector to repay the billions of taxes it evades each year. All of these would be fairer than hitting the weak and the vulnerable and those who cannot fight back - but then Tory governments do not know the meaning of the word fairness.

Oh, the irony, the irony.

I have to say that whilst all that sounds good in principle my question is this

If it was that simple why did Gordon Brown not do it in 13 years of power? Does Gordon not understand the meaning of the word fairness either?

Unfortunately, Gordon was at the helm and directly responsible for creating the conditions and lack of regulation that allowed, nay encouraged, banks to play so fast and loose

[rebelmswar]

Unfortunately, Gordon was at the helm and directly responsible for creating the conditions and lack of regulation that allowed, nay encouraged, banks to play so fast and loose

I would say that a more accurate term would be forced.