[Archived] 2 Million Unemployed By Christmas

[Mattyblue]

That's because Broon had squared the circle, eternal growth, end to boom and bust, the banks were his partners in a new golden age. Keep on spending.

Hubris of the highest order from an incompetent man and party.

[colin]

bugger

[thenodrog]

This is a tragedy. http://news.aol.co.uk/main-news/story/train-manufacturer-axes-1-400-jobs/1872013/

I can't imagine this happening in many other countries without every available stop being pulled out to award the contract to a home based company. 'Is better is cheaper' thinking is endemic in this country these days. It's one thing propping up an ailing industry but giving a nod and a wink based leg up in difficult times should not be out of the question. It's baffling what strokes Siemens must have come up with to pull this out of the hat especially considering the strength of the euro:£.

I wonder how much income tax the UK govt will glean from those German workers cos it'll now have lost a shed load from those that THEY have made redundant with their action? I'd admire Cameron more if he stopped swanning about in Afghanistan like Tony slimeball Blair and left such matters to the Foreign Sec whilst he stayed home to 'breath' on issues like this.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

I'd admire Cameron more

Absurd,this country is on its knees.We once had a maufacturing workforce that was the envy of most country's and when you see what has happened in Derby it makes you want to weep.

ALL the politicians that have allowed this to happen want shafting with a white hot poker!

[JAL]

Absurd,this country is on its knees.We once had a maufacturing workforce that was the envy of most country's and when you see what has happened in Derby it makes you want to weep.

ALL the politicians that have allowed this to happen want shafting with a white hot poker!

When you look at continuing story's like this, you have to wonder, how, can, the City, deliver on shares and pension for the future ?

[rebelmswar]

This is a tragedy. http://news.aol.co.uk/main-news/story/train-manufacturer-axes-1-400-jobs/1872013/

I can't imagine this happening in many other countries without every available stop being pulled out to award the contract to a home based company. 'Is better is cheaper' thinking is endemic in this country these days. It's one thing propping up an ailing industry but giving a nod and a wink based leg up in difficult times should not be out of the question. It's baffling what strokes Siemens must have come up with to pull this out of the hat especially considering the strength of the euro:£.

I wonder how much income tax the UK govt will glean from those German workers cos it'll now have lost a shed load from those that THEY have made redundant with their action? I'd admire Cameron more if he stopped swanning about in Afghanistan like Tony slimeball Blair and left such matters to the Foreign Sec whilst he stayed home to 'breath' on issues like this.

These people do reap what they sow, after their regulation hour lunch, four bathroom breaks, paid holidays etc etc etc.

It does make one want to weep, it really does, but it makes sense.

Germany has become the rising Tiger though, pardon the pun, they have a drive that is second to none when they put their minds to it. You have to remember it has taken awhile, and a lot of hard work and sacrifice, to get to where they are today though. We have to remember that not two decades ago West Germany, a very well run capitalist nation, had to absorb what was then socialist East Germany. This brought huge amounts of unemployed people and threw an ideology into the mix that was quite alien to the West Germans. Not to mention the utter horrid state of affairs that was East Germany in terms of infrastructure and an even more hideous industrial and commercial system. The very thought that some want to live, not to mention work, in such a society so baffles me that I sometimes think they are taking the pi$$. To compensate for this ideology and for the benefit of the country, unions agreed to hold wages down and have sensible dialogue with the government. The Social Democratic government of Gerhard Schroeder also reduced some of the guarantees to the unions and government workers - much like what our country is doing today.

What has happened to Germany since this absorption is a hybrid society and, more importantly, a hybrid workforce. You have the partial safety net of the unions, that have less teeth and a hell of a lot more common sense than their British brethren, but you also have the free market entrepreneurship that makes the industry grow and flourish.

Most heavy industry, including cars, in Germany outsource their very menial and unskilled manufacturing to other countries and retain the specialized workforce at home. Germany does very well at getting simple parts cheap from elsewhere and constructing the specialist and actual assembly of the unit in Germany herself. This cuts costs as well as builds a very streamlined, highly specialised workforce. There are lots of small family owned enterprises throughout Germany that add all of their parts to the whole and do not have to be hampered with idiotic wages and pensions. This keeps the cost of building the unit down to an affordable level, but maintains the wonderfully crafted piece of machinery that they produce.

This would not work with the British unionised workforce at this time.

The cost of building one of these items is so prohibitive that even the country that wants the item has to look elsewhere. Hence the order goes to Germany.

[JAL]

Complete garbage there rebs about the unions and its members being the problem i'm afraid.

Otherwise spoilt another good post from you good sir.

[rebelmswar]

Complete garbage there rebs about the unions and its members being the problem i'm afraid.

Otherwise spoilt another good post from you good sir.

If you could explain to me how unions help keep us competitive in the world of manufacturing, I would be willing to revise my opinion.

[dave birch]

If you could explain to me how unions help keep us competitive in the world of manufacturing, I would be willing to revise my opinion.

Reb, If businesses, in total, kept their word, kept their promises and commitments, financial and otherwise, then there would be no need for Unions.

Unions are the result of companies/businesses not meeting their end of the agreement.

I say this as someone who runs his own business as well as the financial aspects of his wife's business.

Unions are nothing more than the sum of the workforce.

[jim mk2]

Worst aspect of the Derby train decision was watching Transport secretary Phillip Hammond on Newsnight blaming everyone but himself for a decision by his Tory-led government that is likely to lead to the end of train-making in this country after 170 years.

The irony is that while allowing Britain's last remaining train manufacturer to hit the buffers Hammond supports HS2, the proposed high-speed rail link from London to Birmingham and the north. Presumably he will also be happy that the new trains for HS2 will also be built in Germany.

You have to hand it to the Tories for their consistency though: the deindustrialisation of Britain started under Thatcher continues and they seem intent to carry on destroying the northern half of the country as they did prior to 1997. By throwing hundreds and possibly thousands of skilled engineers and workers unnecessarily on the scrapheap the Tories have proved again that they are the natural party of unemployment.

Meanwhile, the German workers at Siemens are probably laughing at this very moment at the stupidity of British politicians who fail to support their home industries and abide by European procurement rules that France and Germany happily ignore when they are not in their own interest.

The public schoolboys in the civil service and government, once they were no longer ruling an empire, have since the end of the second world war been pursuing a policy of "managed decline", and the Derby train decision is a continuation of that policy. Little by little, this country is dying.

[JAL]

If you could explain to me how unions help keep us competitive in the world of manufacturing, I would be willing to revise my opinion.

Will do rebs, but it will be later in the week.

[thenodrog]

Worst aspect of the Derby train decision was watching Transport secretary Phillip Hammond on Newsnight blaming everyone but himself for a decision by his Tory-led government that is likely to lead to the end of train-making in this country after 170 years.

The irony is that while allowing Britain's last remaining train manufacturer to hit the buffers Hammond supports HS2, the proposed high-speed rail link from London to Birmingham and the north. Presumably he will also be happy that the new trains for HS2 will also be built in Germany.

You have to hand it to the Tories for their consistency though: the deindustrialisation of Britain started under Thatcher continues and they seem intent to carry on destroying the northern half of the country as they did prior to 1997. By throwing hundreds and possibly thousands of skilled engineers and workers unnecessarily on the scrapheap the Tories have proved again that they are the natural party of unemployment.

Meanwhile, the German workers at Siemens are probably laughing at this very moment at the stupidity of British politicians who fail to support their home industries and abide by European procurement rules that France and Germany happily ignore when they are not in their own interest.

The public schoolboys in the civil service and government, once they were no longer ruling an empire, have since the end of the second world war been pursuing a policy of "managed decline", and the Derby train decision is a continuation of that policy. Little by little, this country is dying.

Usual lefty rhetoric as expected but do you honestly think that the decision would have been any different under a labour govt? Be honest.

[rebelmswar]

Reb, If businesses, in total, kept their word, kept their promises and commitments, financial and otherwise, then there would be no need for Unions.

Unions are the result of companies/businesses not meeting their end of the agreement.

I say this as someone who runs his own business as well as the financial aspects of his wife's business.

Unions are nothing more than the sum of the workforce.

Mr. Birch,

I have to agree that businesses are not always squeaky clean with their practices and their handling of the employee. This is why I say that Unions are a good thing in principle. The crux of the matter is that the unions themselves are no long squeaky clean either. I understand the vicious and hideously unfair conditions that workers had to work under and the reasons that unions were formed in the first place.

When they started out the unions were a fantastic source of empowerment for a very powerless workforce and were very much needed.

They are not only that any longer though, and that is this issue. Unions have become politicised and, in fact, have begun to destroy what they set out to create.

Some unions will not even allow people to work in certain areas unless that person is a member of a union. How is this contradiction in anyway fair to the worker who does not agree with the politics of said union, never mind have to pay dues for something he does not even want to be a part of?

As a business owner do you have union workers working for you?

My problem is that unions have went from fairness to something else. I personally don't see why an employer must pay for the pension of the employee at all, never mind private health kickers and such. What has happened to personal responsibility?

If someone is fired because of a discrimination or put at unnecessary risk the unions are fantastic, this demanding attitude to things that other workers would gladly do with out just to have a job leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Worst aspect of the Derby train decision was watching Transport secretary Phillip Hammond on Newsnight blaming everyone but himself for a decision by his Tory-led government that is likely to lead to the end of train-making in this country after 170 years.

The irony is that while allowing Britain's last remaining train manufacturer to hit the buffers Hammond supports HS2, the proposed high-speed rail link from London to Birmingham and the north. Presumably he will also be happy that the new trains for HS2 will also be built in Germany.

You have to hand it to the Tories for their consistency though: the deindustrialisation of Britain started under Thatcher continues and they seem intent to carry on destroying the northern half of the country as they did prior to 1997. By throwing hundreds and possibly thousands of skilled engineers and workers unnecessarily on the scrapheap the Tories have proved again that they are the natural party of unemployment.

Meanwhile, the German workers at Siemens are probably laughing at this very moment at the stupidity of British politicians who fail to support their home industries and abide by European procurement rules that France and Germany happily ignore when they are not in their own interest.

The public schoolboys in the civil service and government, once they were no longer ruling an empire, have since the end of the second world war been pursuing a policy of "managed decline", and the Derby train decision is a continuation of that policy. Little by little, this country is dying.

What could he have done? Demand that the company lower costs to make the bid more favorable? How would he have done this? Slash wages? Lay off some people? Cut pensions?

I doubt any of that would have worked and just ended up with another rally for you to espouse your solidarity for.

How can any party that wants to cut tax on the rich, the only buggers that can create a job, be a party of unemployment. I hate to point out which party was in power when the mass of recent company closures, job losses, and worst run of financial failures, boarding on farcical, happened.

How long did they need to be in power to stop this great decline? 20 years?

[rebelmswar]

...

[tashor]

The blame for the ridiculous loss of these jobs lies clearly with the last long running labour government. They set up the "rules" that have tied the present government's hands in assigning contracts. You would have to be stupid, or, in the prime example of this thread, senile to deny this statement of fact.......

Admittedly if our present p.m. had the balls of our last great leader, M.Thatcher, then we could tell the rest of Europe to get stuffed and do the right thing for our country by keeping our jobs - the soft buggers we have had since have sold us down the river.........

Having said that I have one question - why, in the opinion of some, are the Tories deliberately causing unemployment???

What is in it for them??? How will that get them re-elected??? Why oh why ???????????

If they are just doing it to make old dinosaurs like doris pish their already shyiite stained pants then I get it. That would be a reet laugh and well worth ruining the country and losing power over..........but that aside why do people think that the only reason the Tories try to form a government is to ensure high levels of national unemployment?

??? why ???

[rebelmswar]

The blame for the ridiculous loss of these jobs lies clearly with the last long running labour government. They set up the "rules" that have tied the present government's hands in assigning contracts. You would have to be stupid, or, in the prime example of this thread, senile to deny this statement of fact.......

Admittedly if our present p.m. had the balls of our last great leader, M.Thatcher, then we could tell the rest of Europe to get stuffed and do the right thing for our country by keeping our jobs - the soft buggers we have had since have sold us down the river.........

Having said that I have one question - why, in the opinion of some, are the Tories deliberately causing unemployment???

What is in it for them??? How will that get them re-elected??? Why oh why ???????????

If they are just doing it to make old dinosaurs like doris pish their already shyiite stained pants then I get it. That would be a reet laugh and well worth ruining the country and losing power over..........but that aside why do people think that the only reason the Tories try to form a government is to ensure high levels of national unemployment?

??? why ???

Its because they are conservative fiends out for global domination. I suppose the conservatives masterplan is to make it so easy to create jobs that its no longer a challenge. With so many evil rich nuggets running about, in private jets no less, who can't be arsed to make more money for themselves, the horrid neocons will have the perfect mass of out of work people to create a massive army.

With this army they will march the earth destroying businesses so no one can get a job. All the while they turn lead into gold and employ some gnomes to spin straw into the precious metal, just so they can live the lavish lifestyle but need no taxes to pay for it.

That or its just a game of one up with the US in terms of unemployment. Just like old timers reminiscing about how hard they had it, "Oh you have 3 million unemployed do you? Jeeves fire some teachers will you, there's a good man. I'll see you your three and raise 200,000 teachers."

[colin]

Having said that I have one question - why, in the opinion of some, are the Tories deliberately causing unemployment???

To quote Norman Lamont, On 16 May 1991, he stated in parliament that "Rising unemployment and the recession have been the price that we have had to pay to get inflation down. That price is well worth paying."

So, the same policies, damn the rising numbers of unemployed, let them sink & we don't care. We Tories will not be "paying the price."

Same old Tories.

BTW Tashor, easy on the punctuation old chap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rebelmswar]

To quote Norman Lamont, On 16 May 1991, he stated in parliament that "Rising unemployment and the recession have been the price that we have had to pay to get inflation down. That price is well worth paying."

So, the same policies, damn the rising numbers of unemployed, let them sink & we don't care. We Tories will not be "paying the price."

Same old Tories.

BTW Tashor, easy on the punctuation old chap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you honestly think they are doing that now?

So what's the solution? More taxes?

I am not being a smart ass just want to know what you think should be done to stop this slide.

[tashor]

To quote Norman Lamont, On 16 May 1991, he stated in parliament that "Rising unemployment and the recession have been the price that we have had to pay to get inflation down. That price is well worth paying."

So, the same policies, damn the rising numbers of unemployed, let them sink & we don't care. We Tories will not be "paying the price."

Same old Tories.

I know colin, I remember it well...........

That was a very different time and I knew/know many who paid the price and never forgave..........

In my not so humble opinion it was that very policy, combined with the neutering of fascists in the otherwise honerable trade union movement that eventually made us the affluent country that we became under the last labour government as opposed to basket cases like Greece..........................

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jim mk2]

What could he have done? Demand that the company lower costs to make the bid more favorable? How would he have done this? Slash wages? Lay off some people? Cut pensions?

I doubt any of that would have worked and just ended up with another rally for you to espouse your solidarity for.

How can any party that wants to cut tax on the rich, the only buggers that can create a job, be a party of unemployment. I hate to point out which party was in power when the mass of recent company closures, job losses, and worst run of financial failures, boarding on farcical, happened.

How long did they need to be in power to stop this great decline? 20 years?

Cameron could have ripped up the European procurement rules with regards to the Thameslink contract and hand the contract to Bombardier. 100 % of French train orders go to French train manufacturing companies and 90 % of German train orders go to German train manufacturing companies yet the Tory-led goverment mysteriously chose to play by the EU rules as a result of which thousands of Derby workers could lose their jobs.

Now why didn't Cameron do one of his famous U-turns and keep manufacturing jobs in this country or could it just be that because Derby is a Labour-voting city he couldn't care less about it anyway ?

The Tories have always thrown workers on the dole and appear to enjoy doing so. Look at Lamont's quote from a few decades ago - no wonder it is called the Nasty party. The recent recession was a result of the worldwide financial crisis and was exacerbated in this country by the excess of the City and lack of regulation. Under Labour from 1997 to 2008 Britain enjoyed a long period of economic growth which has made you far more wealthy.

[tashor]

The Tories have always thrown workers on the dole and appear to enjoy doing so.

Bring back fox hunting says iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

[colin]

[/url]

So you honestly think they are doing that now?

So what's the solution? More taxes?

I am not being a smart ass just want to know what you think should be done to stop this slide.

Rebelmswar,

It's busy here tonight...

I'm not being a smart ass either, just trying to make a point too:

I do honestly think that the Tory party treats mass unemployment as an economic tool without regard to the social problems that it causes.

There is a massive amount of tax aviodance and evasion that far outweighs the costs of things that the Tories, and indeed the previous government, conviently ignored

here

Perhaps if the government (regardless of the colour of its election rosette) would actually grow some balls and address this tax evasion & avoidance then we may well be all in a better position.

Hey, this is a BRFC unofficial web site, so none of us with any reality expects some kind of concensus, but this is my serious contribition.

Tashor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love you too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BiggusLaddus]

Tax avoidance is perfectly legal though and evasion would only increase if tighter controls were brought in.

[thenodrog]

Usual lefty rhetoric as expected but do you honestly think that the Bombardier decision would have been any different under a labour govt? Be honest.

Jim I asked you to be honest not evasive.

[Stuart]

Tax avoidance is perfectly legal though and evasion would only increase if tighter controls were brought in.

Doesn't mean it's morally right though.

But Reb has actually made a very good argument about adjustments to tax levels, earlier in this thread, which might mean a reduction in tax avoidance - possibly.

As far as the why should we (the taxpayers) give an order to a UK company rather than a German one? Well isn't the simple answer: because the company and all of it's employees pay tax back into the UK coffers and keep people gainfully employed, rather than the money going out of the country.

The actual cost (to the taxpayer) of the German carriages is the cost on the order, plus the cost of benefits to the people who will now be out of work as a result. I'd be interested to see how this adds up in the total cost of acquisition figures.