[Archived] Paul's Progress

[T4E]

I can and will. For the final time, it was Ince's decision to sell him. Tell me this then - who did sell Bentley?

This is a very simple point Den is making. The manager makes the decision. Atleast, he does at our club. Ince decided that he would sell Bentley, and Friedel. With Friedel he made a decision that he wouldn't let it happen until he had a replacement in place. This was widely lauded, whether we agreed with letting Brad go or not. He did not do the same with Bentley. Bentley went when we had no idea who to replace him with. That was daft at best, negligent at worst.

Paul Ince must live and die by huge decisions like this. There is no hiding.

[BuckyRover]

Who played right midfield before we signed Bentley?

[RovertheHill]

I have no hatred of Ince, I sincerely hope he does well. Just trying to point out to the blinkered Inceites that when they say Bentley leaving had nothing to do with Ince, - they're wrong.

As for your second sentence, well it's fabulous watching Emerton playing right wing. It's like going back 5 years.

I do hope you aren't classing me as a blinkered Inceite? I think you'll find that when he was appointed my words were that it was underwhelming and the jury was still out. So far I've not been proved wrong. However I do object to people not giving him a decent chance and DIRECTLY blaming a whole series of events on him which I think is unfair

[den]

I do hope you aren't classing me as a blinkered Inceite? I think you'll find that when he was appointed my words were that it was underwhelming and the jury was still out. So far I've not been proved wrong. However I do object to people not giving him a decent chance and DIRECTLY blaming a whole series of events on him which I think is unfair

Sorry RTH, - no, I certainly didn't mean you. I didn't have any individual in mind, I was just talking generally [ and a little tongue-in-cheek].

[Amo]

Bentley not being replaced is a different matter. Getting shut of the moron was the only option for the club, whoever made the decision.

Not really. We should have only sold Bentley once a replacement had been targeted. There's no point having the money with no one to spend it on, and down your best player.

Bentley could strop and sulk all he wanted, it would have only portrayed him as an immature professional and (Please don't use that word again)ed his own career up. Had Rovers kept him until January, he would have had to knuckle down and prove he's still a class act otherwise bang goes his move to Spurs or another "elite".

So no, it wasn't the only option for the club.

[RovertheHill]

Sorry RTH, - no, I certainly didn't mean you. I didn't have any individual in mind, I was just talking generally [ and a little tongue-in-cheek].

Good. For me his biggest actual mistake is in not replacing Bentley. I sincerely hope that we have a plan in place and a list of options come January...

[blue phil]

This is a very simple point Den is making. The manager makes the decision. Atleast, he does at our club. Ince decided that he would sell Bentley, and Friedel. With Friedel he made a decision that he wouldn't let it happen until he had a replacement in place. This was widely lauded, whether we agreed with letting Brad go or not. He did not do the same with Bentley. Bentley went when we had no idea who to replace him with. That was daft at best, negligent at worst.

Paul Ince must live and die by huge decisions like this. There is no hiding.

No offence but you and Den are living in a world that disappeared at least 10 years ago .

At clubs our size , if a top player is in demand by other clubs and wants to go - then he goes .

Whether or not either Bentboy or Friedel would have stayed had Hughes stayed is hardly Ince's fault . If anyone is to blame here it is the the board for not appointing someone with the "charisma" to entice both players to stay . Not that such a person exists , of course ...

Whether or not Ince is to blame for not replacing Bentley is another question altogether , but don't kid yourselves that managers hold any serious cards these days - they don't .

Does anyone remember the Barry Ferguson saga ?

[92er]

Ince hails 'brilliant' Hodgson

Rewind to nearly 10 years ago.... 22nd Nov 1998

And this is the man Ince looks up to? The manager who dumped us at the bottom of the league.

I can't understand why he would sing the praises of a manager who made a very significant contribution to getting Rovers relegated. Shocking.

Is 10 years of history about to repeat itself....

On Radio Lancs PI said he looked up to Roy as, before he arrived, Ince was being played on the left wing. It sounded as though both men and both wives got on and although PI said Roy left under a bit of a cloud, he was held in high esteem at the club and that was why they took him back as boss a couple of years later.

[67splitscreen]

Rewind to nearly 10 years ago.... 22nd Nov 1998

And this is the man Ince looks up to? The manager who dumped us at the bottom of the league.

I can't understand why he would sing the praises of a manager who made a very significant contribution to getting Rovers relegated. Shocking.

Is 10 years of history about to repeat itself....

On Radio Lancs PI said he looked up to Roy as, before he arrived, Ince was being played on the left wing. It sounded as though both men and both

wives got on and although PI said Roy left under a bit of a cloud, he was held in high esteem at the club and that was why they took him back as boss a couple of years later.

Is this the same Roy Hodgson, who took over from Parkes in 97, and then took us into Europe, few players moving in and out, and then a bit of player power, getting him the sack, not saying it was deserved or not.

[imy9]

This is the same Roy Hodgson who has the best CV from any England manager over the last 10 years, find a better one.

I would argue that Hodgson was extremely successful at Rovers but an impulsive decision by Jack probably got us relegated.

[DingleBaiter]

it's well documented rovers went for PENNANT,they must have thought they had a great chance off getting him,but he wanted 60k a week and now he can't get in the liverpoo squad

where is it 'well documented'? There seemed to be a lot of rumour, spin, media fluff but certainly no firm evidence they 'went' for him, at least that I can recall. Then you're suggesting after they went for him, they found out he wanted 60k? cuckoo?

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Is this the same Roy Hodgson, who took over from Parkes in 97, and then took us into Europe, few players moving in and out, and then a bit of player power, getting him the sack, not saying it was deserved or not.

Thinking of rumours of player unrest, is history repeating itself? Hope Not

[DingleBaiter]

Well Matthias certainly thought they could find someone better than Bentley, so it's not silly, is it.

Ince should have come in, told everyone that no-one was leaving until January at the earliest, added to the squad with a couple of quality signings, then taken it from there. Can't believe how nobody could see that. He wouldn't have been the first manager to use that approach when totally new to the playing squad and club.

Very naive.

Disingenuous, to say the least.

[T4E]

No offence but you and Den are living in a world that disappeared at least 10 years ago .

At clubs our size , if a top player is in demand by other clubs and wants to go - then he goes .

Whether or not either Bentboy or Friedel would have stayed had Hughes stayed is hardly Ince's fault . If anyone is to blame here it is the the board for not appointing someone with the "charisma" to entice both players to stay . Not that such a person exists , of course ...

Whether or not Ince is to blame for not replacing Bentley is another question altogether , but don't kid yourselves that managers hold any serious cards these days - they don't .

Does anyone remember the Barry Ferguson saga ?

It's not about blame Phil. What is being debated is who made the decision. Den says Ince. I mostly agree, although I realise there are more people giving input than just the manager. Others say Ince could have done nothing about it. That is just not true.

The only reason to sell Bentley was that we were getting in a huge amount of money. The only reason to get in a lot of money at the expense of the standard of the squad, is to spend it on new players to replace Bentley/improve the team. We totally failed at that.

If we were going to sell, we should have had a replacement lined up and fee agreed before sanctioning it. We didn't, and that shows terrible mismanagement all-round - Ince is not exempt.

[islander200]

I would agree with billy mkinley saying that we played some really exciting football under hodgson,the first season under him we were involved in a lot of highscoring games,the highlight for me being a 3-1 win over arsenal at highbury,sutton was brilliant that season other brilliant games were 7-2 v sheff weds,hammering villa both home and away and although we lost the game 3-4 against leeds all the goals scored in the first half.What proved roys downfall was his failure in the transfer market and without a doubt his biggest mistake was replacing colin hendry with christian dailly which for me was one of the main reasons we got relegated

[roversmum]

For those who insist Ince was to blame for selling Bentley, yes, he may have had the final say but having re-read the Bentley thread especially round about the time he left there is no doubt that Bentley was making himself unpopular around the place.

He says himself he was on the phone every day to Spurs. He turns up in an interview the worse for drink. He allegedly feigns injury and leaves pre-season. In an interview both John Williams and Paul Ince intimated that he was making a nuisance of himself and unsettling the other players and in end there was no choice but to let him go.

With hindsight, should Ince have done an MON and banned him from the training ground? Would it have done any good? Bentley and his situation is a different kettle of fish from that of Gareth Barry and MON.

The constant harping on about it is really getting me down. He's gone and we have to get on with it. He won't come back, we were not able to get a replacement for whatever reason and we have to get on with it, come what may. I'm not happy about it but that won't change the situation. Likewise Freidel, which to my mind was more shocking, he was the very last person I expected to leave.

I have to admit I'm worried. Then again it's still early days. Like Souness weeing with the willy he had, that's what Ince must do for now, like it or not.

[67splitscreen]

MH said he was going no where, (is hardly going to say we are selling him in the close season, if he dose not sign a new contract.)

MH leaves, Bentarce could still have thrown his toys out of the pram, even in Hughes had stayed.

Bentarse spouts his mouth off on Sky Bla Bla Bla, opportunity knocks, no manager and all, probably already been tapped at this stage.

Ince appointed, has JW backing.

Ince meets Bentarse, Bla, Bla, Bla.

Off to Germany the happy family goes, Rumors in the press that Incey's training is second rate Etc. I'm not doing press ups attitude problems Etc.

A few days later he's back injured

Ince speaks with JW (I assume) Something was not working out, in the best interest's of the club.

Rovers agree to sell, if valuation is met.

Ince had two choices to make both a gamble.

Being the new manager, trying to prepare for a very big season ahead, What would you have done?

I remember the outrage on this board, at his school boy antics, and the stunts he pulled. Most posted, get rid, the more cautious, stick him in the reserves for a season, bugger up his England career, in the hope he swallowed his pride, and knuckled down. He'll soon come round. many said.

Could Ince take that chance.

Option 1.

Ince takes the hardline, as some seem to suggest, What was the possible outcome IMO.

A big fat pay cheque every week, winging to all the other players, spitting his dummy out on the training ground, Gobbing off to the media. (funny how the press leaks stopped after he left) and probably not replaced him in the hope he became a Rover player again.

Then in January having to replace him.

How much would we have got for him in January.??

Granted we would have had longer to prepare for his replacement.

Oh yes, and everything turned out blue & white

Option2.

History as we know it.

IMO Ince and JW made the rite decision, at the time based on the Facts they had to hand, and the experience to see the likely out come of option 1.

Question to resolve.

Why was a replacement not signed.

More speculation.

The transfer budget, figures banded about from 10-25m, based on guesstimates by members of the MB. and juggling figures around from the transfer dealings.

Linked to several RM players by Nicko, and the press.

Did the club ever disclose any of there RM targets, Not to my knowledge.

A few press releases said we where working on a deal until late on, confirmed what Nico had said earlier in the evening.

Days after we where supposed to have made a last minute attempts to sign a RM. (press)

JW confirmed attempt.

We can assume funds for January are available, as per JW latest press release.

So when did Ince give JW his list of players?

When did JW confirm with Ince these are the players within our budget?.

Ince then tells JW final targets with back ups.

JW starts negotiations Bla, Bla, Bla,

From what Nicko said we were in negotiations for several weeks with Liverpool, and made enquires on a number of other targets, never confirmed by the club.

So after all the above, unless i've missed something. It comes down to one answer only IMO.

The club is to blame for the current squad shortages.

That's my take on it, and unless someone has some cast iron FACTS that's how I see it.

Can we all agree to disagree, it is irrelevant now, but it may raise it's head again soon, if Ince and the team can't improve the defending.

[John]

Have we just got promotion??

[dingles staying down 4ever]

If we were going to sell, we should have had a replacement lined up and fee agreed before sanctioning it. We didn't, and that shows terrible mismanagement all-round - Ince is not exempt.

Or Ince wanted to assess his squad in competitive action. A squad which had two International right sided midfielders already in it. Chances are Ince had not seen either Reid or Emerton to assess whether they were good enough to play there regularly so he needed time to assess. For a large part of pre-season Emerton was injured. To me this explains why Rovers left it so late before trying to get a right sided midfielder in and failing.

Bentley and his situation is a different kettle of fish from that of Gareth Barry and MON.

The constant harping on about it is really getting me down. He's gone and we have to get on with it. He won't come back, we were not able to get a replacement for whatever reason and we have to get on with it, come what may. I'm not happy about it but that won't change the situation. Likewise Freidel, which to my mind was more shocking, he was the very last person I expected to leave.

Could not agree more

[DingleBaiter]

All this tripe about Bentley is hardly forward-thinking is it?

Isn't it frustrating when people want to rake up history to prove an agenda, despite it being just that - history? Especially when no-body knows the facts, or will ever do? Even with the (apparent) 'facts' served up on here, they're still either opinions or (much worse) 'single source' stories, and we all know the dangers of them don't we? Crikey, wars have been fought for less

Ironically, the same detractors seem to want to ignore the history of Hughes' first few months here (cpl 4-0 losses was there? an early cup exit?) yet somehow want to apply that criteria to Ince's results to suggest he's not good enough, yet also to judge him by Hughes's standards.

Sooner or later, Rovers will have to find their natural level in the Prem - and galling that it may prove to be - we've punched above our weight for so long, perhaps it's time for a step back? Likewise, looking at the situation - losing an excellent manager, two tremendous players, appointing a relatively unproven manager at a far higher level outside his comfort zone, financial restrictions, a far greater focus by our immediate competitors to get into Europe etc - I would always have been content if we were in the top ten come season end. I admire what Ince is trying to do - especially as it's not all good, hopefully he will learn & improve - as he's got long term plans (if there are ever such things in football). Ultimately, it comes down to emotional intelligence of the fans in having the right mental approach, in accordance with (hopefully) good performances, and most of all - results. As I see it, there's a tremendous amount of prejudice against Ince, coupled with certain things that have dented peoples perceptions/confidence. It's not all negative, and time will only tell who's right in their thinking. Ince may prove to be another turkey, but he has to be given a chance to prove that incontrovertibly - despite a few bad results/performances, he's surely still got time to turn things around. Bear in mind we play 3 of the top 4 in the first few months, so October time was always going to be the breakwater for me.

Some people struggle to see the distinction between ambition and managing expectations sensibly. Some people also show a lack of objectivity & patience - if we said we'd judge Ince over a period, we have to accept no matter how good/bad things get during it, the time to judge is at the end of said period. The facts are we are the polar opposite to teams/fans like Newcastle, West Ham etc in that at least the board has the courage of their convictions; no matter how bad (or good) Ince may prove to be, he'll surely be given a time to prove that. After all, if we applied the logic most of the detractors seem to be bending towards Ince when he had Hughes, we'd have sacked him and never had his high standards we're now judging Ince by.

Just for devilment, if any of the Ince detractors have remarried, did they judge their second/third marriage by the previous one, or on it's own merits?

[CrazyIvan]

Well said DingleBaiter.

[Guest Kamy100]

Ince Warns Fans To Expect Tough Season

Hmmmm not liking this at all, Hughes had the same resources and always talked about setting targets high (qualify for UEFA cup etc.) all of this negativity from Ince isn't going to get us anywhere.

[DingleBaiter]

Well said DingleBaiter.

Cheers Ivan; like to add a note of realism now and again to the equation

[G Somerset Rover]

Ince Warns Fans To Expect Tough Season

Hmmmm not liking this at all, Hughes had the same resources and always talked about setting targets high (qualify for UEFA cup etc.) all of this negativity from Ince isn't going to get us anywhere.

I'm extremely worried by Ince's interview there. "I've said all along it will be a tough season"...from the same man who said the aim was always to beat last season's points tally.

One thing is apparent from Ince's latest PR blunder, the board clearly didn't the manager the chance of spending any kind of big money this summer. AGAIN.

[DingleBaiter]

Ince Warns Fans To Expect Tough Season

Hmmmm not liking this at all, Hughes had the same resources and always talked about setting targets high (qualify for UEFA cup etc.) all of this negativity from Ince isn't going to get us anywhere.

Clearly 'realism' and 'negativity' depends on your viewpoint Kamy.

Here's the news, being a Rovers fan is like going out on the pull Sat night. You think you're going to pull Megan Fox, but instead end up with Heather from Eastenders. It may seen as a success of sorts, in that you may have made the beast with two backs, but not in the manner you hoped. Maybe we need some 'beer goggles' for when we watch Rovers, some fans seem to think we're Man United. IMO they're just as deluded as the Newcastle fans who think they're a big club, with themselves being the best fans around, despite turning their owner against them and making there situation even more untenable for future investment/progress. Yet again, these fans - like others - will tell you they've only the clubs best interests at heart, yet don't seem to click they're potentially making the situation much worse than whatever/whoever they're criticising could ever do. Madness hey?