[Archived] Paul's Progress

[bennyboyt11]

im pretty sure Ince's team is looking around the globe for a Bentley replacement as we speak... I can't believe they wouldnt be looking for a right winger when we quite clearly are lacking in that department

[BuckyRover]

I don't believe for a second Ince is not looking to spend money.

He is just being coy. Making out we have no money. I will be surprised if Ince does not make a "big" signing in January, he has a bit of pride about himself and will want to make a statement. He is probably just wary about who he buys as he will have to get it perfect.

[Tris]

Ah. So in the words of Homer Simpson - "Never do anything, then you'll never make mistakes".

To use other clubs balls ups (especially Spurs!) as a reason not to look to improve is crazy.

Absolutely not.

As I've said previously, Rovers have a great record in getting bang for their buck. I fully expect good players to come in in January - if the right players are available at the right price.

If we can't benchmark against the teams we play against in our own league, what on earth can we benchmark against??? A load of them wasted obscene amounts of money this summer on garbage. Rovers did not.

[Tris]

What I'm saying is in danger of being twisted.

Let me put it another way. Let's say that Rovers have done well in the league come the end of the season. There are no apparent weaknesses in the squad. Ince, or any other manager [to stop people becoming paranoid whenever there's chance of some criticism coming along], is happy with his squad. However, he's told there's ten million to spend. I'm saying that any real manager would take that opportunity of bringing in another quality player, rather than taking the "we're OK at the moment, we'll keep the money in the bank" stance. Build from strength, don't wait until things are changing for the worse. No-one knows what the future holds, so strengthen whenever possible.

It's so obvious really.

To quote the great Mark Hughes in Summer 2007 --

"There's a lot of players moving around at the moment and the value that has been put on those players is totally out of sync to what they are actually worth.

"I think it's just people looking around to see what's available, and who they can get into their club, and they are having to pay top dollar, and over and above top dollar on occasions.

"I'm just grateful for the squad I've got [...] and I'm grateful that we are in a situation where we don't have to go out in the market place and buy players for the sake of it, paying over the odds."

Sums it up perfectly. It's how this club works (and has nothing to do with who happens to be the manager at the time).

[T4E]

Absolutely not.

As I've said previously, Rovers have a great record in getting bang for their buck. I fully expect good players to come in in January - if the right players are available at the right price.

If we can't benchmark against the teams we play against in our own league, what on earth can we benchmark against??? A load of them wasted obscene amounts of money this summer on garbage. Rovers did not.

Exactly the point.

If you benchmark Rovers performance in the transfer market over the last few seasons against the teams that play in our own league, what do you find? We've consistently out-performed everyone in that department, only to get to a stage where we have a bit of cash to do so on a slightly bigger scale and turn the opportunity down.

[CrazyIvan]

This argument is a bit weird. On one side we have people saying we should have bought a right wing and there are plenty out there. On the other side there are people saying we needed to sign a right wing but the price was too high so it wasn't wise to spend silly money for one. I would say both arguments are correct. There are plenty of wingers out there, not all top quality and the ones Rovers looked at were going for silly money. Surely it's better to hold off on buying a player for silly money when you know you can find one for decent money later? I know that leaves the club short of a player in a position that provided lots of goals last year but we have players who are covering that area, not ideal but it's working.

Personally I would say Paul Ince and the board did the right thing and didn't spend silly money. I would expect them to sign someone in January.

[tonyoz]

On this occasion, I don't think there is too much difference of opinion.

Most fans would like to see a quality addition (or two) to our squad - whenever and wherever they become available.

Most fans would not like to see us gambling money on players with over-inflated valuations.

I agree with the remarks about post-championship lack of investment and the resulting consequences as expressed above. Interestingly, there is an alternative way of spicing up a first team squad. (I am not suggesting that it should be used instead of investment by the way)......but that is to recruit and develop top quality youngsters. This we seem to be doing. The success of the team put out to face Everton in the cup gave rise to lively debates on here about who should face Newcastle. Players such as Simpson, Olsson, Treacy, Derbyshire are putting some of the old guard under real pressure. Everyone seems to agree that this is a healthy situation for our club.

A blend of the 2 approaches is sensible in my opinion.

[T4E]

Personally I would say Paul Ince and the board did the right thing and didn't spend silly money. I would expect them to sign someone in January.

I think that's probably the issue. If we knew for sure that the club attempted to do business and genuinely could not find the right players despite trying to do so, then it would probably appease a few. My worry is that we were not able to fully investigate all possibilities, as the money was not made available for transfers. It was the second transfer window in a row that we have had a glaring hole in the team that needed filling, yet we've not done so for one reason or another.

I am not convinced the lack of spending was for purely football reasons.

[CrazyIvan]

I think that's probably the issue. If we knew for sure that the club attempted to do business and genuinely could not find the right players despite trying to do so, then it would probably appease a few. My worry is that we were not able to fully investigate all possibilities, as the money was not made available for transfers. It was the second transfer window in a row that we have had a glaring hole in the team that needed filling, yet we've not done so for one reason or another.

I am not convinced the lack of spending was for purely football reasons.

I guess we will see in January. I also suppose that if we are doing well in the league the imperative to spend on a right winger might be much reduced. We shall see.

[philipl]

Accounts due out around Christmas.

LDrover has it bob on. For less than £15m in the summer of 1995, we could have signed Dugarry, Zidane and Roberto Baggio. Makes you cry when you consider what £40m+ got spent on in 1997-9.

This summer, there was a lack of liquidity and the market stalled. Perhaps the stall will turn into a shake-out at which point Rovers are supremely well placed to snap up players.

The Of-com ruling this morning forcing BSkyB to offer more of its packages to other broadcasters is potentially going to cut football revenue when the next Media deal is offered by the Prem.

[den]

This argument is a bit weird.

On this occasion, I don't think there is too much difference of opinion.

Both correct.

THIS was the original post.

[AggyBlue]

None of this "we wont spend unless we can improve the team" rubbish/excuse. You HAVE to at least TRY.

So who at the club said "we wont spend unless we can improve the team"

and can you not recall all the players we had on trial or the deadline day deal that fell through.

[den]

So who at the club said "we wont spend unless we can improve the team"

and can you not recall all the players we had on trial or the deadline day deal that fell through.

Aggy, I'm trying to say that in the Prem, if there's money available, you must strengthen. If you don't, then you lose ground because everyone else will.

As for your first sentence, it's been said as long as I've been following Rovers. It's the most misleading statement ever. All clubs have to bring in squad players.

[joey_big_nose]

Aggy, I'm trying to say that in the Prem, if there's money available, you must strengthen. If you don't, everyone else will.

As fro your first sentence, it's been said as long as I've been following Rovers. It's the most misleading statement ever. All clubs have to bring in squad players.

I think that mindset is dangerous. Too often managers look outside their own players and aggressively buy in which destabalises the squad. They can alo make catastrophic errors of judgement about who they bring in.

I would say a sensible approach is to first to look at your squad and see what you can do with it (as Ince has done- new roles for Warnock and Derbyshire, new lease of life for Emerton, introduction of Olsson and Treacy), then look to buy established players who are quality and required (we did that with Grella - jury out - and tried and failed for a right winger) and then look to bring in more risky players for minimal value (Simpson, Fowler, Andrews, Carlos).

Far far too much emphasis is placed on the buying expensive players part. The point is to buy good players and have a squad. Good players do not neccessarily cost lots of money. Supporters are always far too willign to write off a guy who has a few bad games as "not good enough" and suggest we need to buy a whole new squad. A team can be rejuvinated by new tactics, new training, a new approach as much as new players.

Spurs, Man City, Aston Villa, Newcastle, Pompey, Fulham, Everton, West Ham, Sunderland have all net spent a shedload of money over the last two seasons. They do not actually look much better than us or Wigan at the moment. That is because we have bought smartly, and then put a lot of effort into using what we have well. You can only put 11 players on a pitch, and they are all human beings. Clever tactics to maximise what you have and good team spirit is more important than having Jermaine Defoe or Ashley Young in your side.

It is about quality not expense. Sadly supporers can only really see the established side of things (me included) - European players in the main legues - and they will always be expensive as they have a big profile. And hence people imagine that you have to pay top dollar to get good players. Not the case. Andrews who looks an okay Prem player would have cost 3m if he was in the Prem already.

Its not just about who you buy, it is how you use them. We actually seem to have a very very good squad. A quality right winger and maybe a different sort of forward and I would say we are in great shape.

Using what you have effectively and maintaining stability is just as important as big name signing, more so infact in my mind. And buying big name players if you do it badly undermines stability and your ability to pick a cohesive side.

I'm willing to just let Ince get on with it.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

I think that mindset is dangerous. Too often managers look outside their own players and aggressively buy in which destabalises the squad. They can alo make catastrophic errors of judgement about who they bring in.

I would say a sensible approach is to first to look at your squad and see what you can do with it (as Ince has done- new roles for Warnock and Derbyshire, new lease of life for Emerton, introduction of Olsson and Treacy), then look to buy established players who are quality and required (we did that with Grella - jury out - and tried and failed for a right winger) and then look to bring in more risky players for minimal value (Simpson, Fowler, Andrews, Carlos).

Far far too much emphasis is placed on the buying expensive players part. The point is to buy good players and have a squad. Good players do not neccessarily cost lots of money. Supporters are always far too willign to write off a guy who has a few bad games as "not good enough" and suggest we need to buy a whole new squad. A team can be rejuvinated by new tactics, new training, a new approach as much as new players.

Spurs, Man City, Aston Villa, Newcastle, Pompey, Fulham, Everton, West Ham, Sunderland have all net spent a shedload of money over the last two seasons. They do not actually look much better than us or Wigan at the moment. That is because we have bought smartly, and then put a lot of effort into using what we have well. You can only put 11 players on a pitch, and they are all human beings. Clever tactics to maximise what you have and good team spirit is more important than having Jermaine Defoe or Ashley Young in your side.

It is about quality not expense. Sadly supporers can only really see the established side of things (me included) - European players in the main legues - and they will always be expensive as they have a big profile. And hence people imagine that you have to pay top dollar to get good players. Not the case. Andrews who looks an okay Prem player would have cost 3m if he was in the Prem already.

Its not just about who you buy, it is how you use them. We actually seem to have a very very good squad. A quality right winger and maybe a different sort of forward and I would say we are in great shape.

Using what you have effectively and maintaining stability is just as important as big name signing, more so infact in my mind. And buying big name players if you do it badly undermines stability and your ability to pick a cohesive side.

I'm willing to just let Ince get on with it.

could not agree more

[waggy]

a massive test on saturday for paul and his men,has he learnt from the arse game?will he try to take the game to utd,and will ollsoon face ronaldo

[bennyboyt11]

Lets hope Ronaldo doesn't find his form from last season this saturday!

[den]

I think that mindset is dangerous. Too often managers look outside their own players and aggressively buy in which destabalises the squad. They can alo make catastrophic errors of judgement about who they bring in.

I would say a sensible approach is to first to look at your squad and see what you can do with it (as Ince has done- new roles for Warnock and Derbyshire, new lease of life for Emerton, introduction of Olsson and Treacy), then look to buy established players who are quality and required (we did that with Grella - jury out - and tried and failed for a right winger) and then look to bring in more risky players for minimal value (Simpson, Fowler, Andrews, Carlos).

Far far too much emphasis is placed on the buying expensive players part. The point is to buy good players and have a squad. Good players do not neccessarily cost lots of money. Supporters are always far too willign to write off a guy who has a few bad games as "not good enough" and suggest we need to buy a whole new squad. A team can be rejuvinated by new tactics, new training, a new approach as much as new players.

Spurs, Man City, Aston Villa, Newcastle, Pompey, Fulham, Everton, West Ham, Sunderland have all net spent a shedload of money over the last two seasons. They do not actually look much better than us or Wigan at the moment. That is because we have bought smartly, and then put a lot of effort into using what we have well. You can only put 11 players on a pitch, and they are all human beings. Clever tactics to maximise what you have and good team spirit is more important than having Jermaine Defoe or Ashley Young in your side.

It is about quality not expense. Sadly supporers can only really see the established side of things (me included) - European players in the main legues - and they will always be expensive as they have a big profile. And hence people imagine that you have to pay top dollar to get good players. Not the case. Andrews who looks an okay Prem player would have cost 3m if he was in the Prem already.

Its not just about who you buy, it is how you use them. We actually seem to have a very very good squad. A quality right winger and maybe a different sort of forward and I would say we are in great shape.

Using what you have effectively and maintaining stability is just as important as big name signing, more so infact in my mind. And buying big name players if you do it badly undermines stability and your ability to pick a cohesive side.

I'm willing to just let Ince get on with it.

JBN, you state that mind set is dangerous. What have I said that differs from what you have said? Have I said throw money at poor players - no. I've said if there's money available, then spend it on quality. It's no use sitting in the bank.

Please explain

[Billy Castell]

Maybe the right quality was not available at the time, for whatever reason.

[trueblue]

Maybe the right quality was not available at the time, for whatever reason.

Or it was but we just couldn't afford it

[joey_big_nose]

JBN, you state that mind set is dangerous. What have I said that differs from what you have said? Have I said throw money at poor players - no. I've said if there's money available, then spend it on quality. It's no use sitting in the bank.

Please explain

The mindset that you have to buy players to succeed. You don't need to. You need a good squad to succeed and a good team. World class players do not equal success, which is lucky because we cannot afford them!

Often careful managment and promotion from within works alongside a few well judged signings. I think we are doing that.

We need a right winger and possibly a striker and we are good.

If we lose the next three games people will be saying "sell the team, buy a new one" but that is lunacy in my eyes. You need to keep a steady ship. Ince is doing that. I just think if we were as aggressive in the transfer market as some would like we would upset what is a very very fine balance at the club.

[Hughesy]

I think it was more a case of the quality not available.

We were interested in Joaquin but then Madrid got interested and the price went up.

We were interested in Pennant but that broke down on deadline day.

We were offered Lennon but didnt want him.

We took Lopez on trial but he wasnt good enough.

The club is obviously looking. Id rather they found the right man, rather than signing a dodgy foreigner that is average at best.

[American Rover12]

And that's overall what it comes down to. Like Hughesy said, and the fact that though the quality might be there, there might be something to suggest that the player won't work well in our system. No one can deny that there is quality in the positions we need, but

The club is obviously looking. Id rather they found the right man, rather than signing a dodgy foreigner that is average at best.

that's pretty much spot on.

[costakiau]

Probably worth noting in this thread the progress of one one of the touted candidates for the job. Ten Cate has turned Panathanaikos into one of the most borings team in the Greek League. They didnt manage a shot on goal (other than the penalty) against Anorthosis during the week. He is keeping exciting young players out of the team (Ninis, christodopoulos, mellissis) and is hardly charming towards the media.

Let it be known that i am not racist towards anyone of Surinamese decent.

[tonyoz]

Probably worth noting in this thread the progress of one one of the touted candidates for the job. Ten Cate has turned Panathanaikos into one of the most borings team in the Greek League. They didnt manage a shot on goal (other than the penalty) against Anorthosis during the week. He is keeping exciting young players out of the team (Ninis, christodopoulos, mellissis) and is hardly charming towards the media.

Let it be known that i am not racist towards anyone of Surinamese decent.

Very interesting. Please keep us informed of his progress.