[Archived] Paul's Progress

[roversmum]

Richard Branson for one. I suspect you know full well what I am referring to, Drog, you're just trying to be clever . So Paul may or may not be an academic person but it doesn't stop him from being a successful one. JW and the Board must have seen something in him to choose him as our Manager above the other candidates. Whether or not that was the right decision we shall find out in due course, as would be the case with any other candidate.

As I have two grandchildren with learning difficulties you will appreciate I don't really find it a subject to joke about.

[imy9]

Wha-hey! Straight from the horses mouth!

"Ince completed his second week of courses at Ewood Park last week and revealed the practical work was a lot better than the educational side of it.

He said: “I know it has to be done and to be fair I have enjoyed it. The coaching outside has been great. It gives you a different insight into what goes on as a coach but the classroom just does my head in."

Kinell I was spot on again! I'm expecting a whole raft of apologies and retractions from certain members whose responses to my initial post suggesting that Paul Ince suffered 'learning difficulties' were disrespectful, churlish, containg accusations of racism and basically just downright insulting.............

http://www.brfcs.co.uk/mb/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=668608

C'mon children, and apologise. You know that you'll feel so much better for it.

So because Ince has stated that being in a classroom "does his head in" that means that he has learning difficulties? That is a daft statement and quite insulting to people who have learning difficulties. Before you ask I am a teacher and encounter pupils with learning difficulties on a daily basis- you would be surprised how many people find being in a class "does their head in" but have no learning difficulties whatsoever. I think the only one with an issue is you, maybe if you put your prejudice to one side then you can judge Ince on what he will/will not accomplish (interesting that Ince has passed both level 2 and 3 of his Pro license)

[T4E]

Why thank you .......... err I think

From the heart, Gord.

[Mr Creosote]

From the heart, Gord.

[CrazyIvan]

Wha-hey! Straight from the horses mouth!

"Ince completed his second week of courses at Ewood Park last week and revealed the practical work was a lot better than the educational side of it.

He said: “I know it has to be done and to be fair I have enjoyed it. The coaching outside has been great. It gives you a different insight into what goes on as a coach but the classroom just does my head in."

Kinell I was spot on again! I'm expecting a whole raft of apologies and retractions from certain members whose responses to my initial post suggesting that Paul Ince suffered 'learning difficulties' were disrespectful, churlish, containg accusations of racism and basically just downright insulting.............

http://www.brfcs.co.uk/mb/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=668608

C'mon children, and apologise. You know that you'll feel so much better for it.

I honestly think this is a disgusting post and completely out of order. What you've done, Gordon, is as insulting to Ince as it is to those with learning disabilities. Inces statement that the classroom sessions 'do his head in' means absolutely nothing with regard to having a learning disability. You also completely ignore the fact that Ince found the outside coaching very enjoyable. I would imagine the theory behind coaching to be very dull indeed in a classroom environment. I have done numerous IT courses (professional qualifications) and some of the very dry and boring ones did my head in. Some of the others were brilliant so your crowing over a phrase in an interview is disgusting and vain.

[gumboots]

I honestly think this is a disgusting post and completely out of order. What you've done, Gordon, is as insulting to Ince as it is to those with learning disabilities. Inces statement that the classroom sessions 'do his head in' means absolutely nothing with regard to having a learning disability. You also completely ignore the fact that Ince found the outside coaching very enjoyable. I would imagine the theory behind coaching to be very dull indeed in a classroom environment. I have done numerous IT courses (professional qualifications) and some of the very dry and boring ones did my head in. Some of the others were brilliant so your crowing over a phrase in an interview is disgusting and vain.

I'm a graduate with a teaching qualification and much of the further training we do does my head in too. Show me practical things I can do with real kids in a real classroom environment and I'm fine. Talk education theory and it's dull as ditchwater. I take the mick on courses if it bores me. Why should Ince enjoy being in a classroom? Lots of kids I teach who are bright as butttons thrive when you get them out of the classroom but can't be bothered in it. Doesn't mean they can't learn or are unwilling to do so; just that the way they are being asked to learn does not suit them.

[thenodrog]

Richard Branson for one. I suspect you know full well what I am referring to, Drog, you're just trying to be clever . So Paul may or may not be an academic person but it doesn't stop him from being a successful one. JW and the Board must have seen something in him to choose him as our Manager above the other candidates. Whether or not that was the right decision we shall find out in due course, as would be the case with any other candidate.

As I have two grandchildren with learning difficulties you will appreciate I don't really find it a subject to joke about.

So because Ince has stated that being in a classroom "does his head in" that means that he has learning difficulties? That is a daft statement and quite insulting to people who have learning difficulties. Before you ask I am a teacher and encounter pupils with learning difficulties on a daily basis- you would be surprised how many people find being in a class "does their head in" but have no learning difficulties whatsoever. I think the only one with an issue is you, maybe if you put your prejudice to one side then you can judge Ince on what he will/will not accomplish (interesting that Ince has passed both level 2 and 3 of his Pro license)

Look at the quote you two cos this is what I said........

"Maybe if he and his chums gained the necessary coaching qualifications straight and above board he'd gain a bit more credibility. The way this issue has developed implies possible learning difficulties."

There is no insult or joke there, if there is please explain.

That quote contains simply my suggestion at the time on why Ince is apparently 'avoiding' completing his coaching badges. I'm surprised nobody else spotted it as there really was little else to explain his continuing reluctance to complete what appears by all accounts to be a simple straight forward coaching course.

From that single post I took lots of unfair criticism, including the usual accusations of racism from certain notoriously agenda'd but shallow thinking members, with no effective intervention by moderation either so is it any wonder that I take the chance to rub a few peoples noses in it when yet again it appears that the passing of time has proven my comments to be accurate.

[CrazyIvan]

Look at the quote you two cos this is what I said........

"Maybe if he and his chums gained the necessary coaching qualifications straight and above board he'd gain a bit more credibility. The way this issue has developed implies possible learning difficulties."

There is no insult or joke there, if there is please explain.

That quote contains simply my suggestion at the time on why Ince is apparently 'avoiding' completing his coaching badges. I'm surprised nobody else spotted it as there really was little else to explain his continuing reluctance to complete what appears by all accounts to be a simple straight forward coaching course.

From that single straightforward post I took lots of unfair criticism, including accusations of racism from certain notoriously agenda'd members, with no effective intervention by moderation either so is it any wonder that I take the chance to rub a few peoples noses in it when yet again it appears that the passing of time has proven my comments to be accurate.

It doesn't appear to me that your comments were accurate at all. Your interpretation of a phrase in an interview is how you are backing up a view that has no evidence to support it whatsoever. Ince is one assessment from the first steps towards his pro badge, do you think he could have gotten this far with a learning disability that you say is the reason he avoided doing his badges in the first place?

[Mr Creosote]

Look at the quote you two cos this is what I said........

"Maybe if he and his chums gained the necessary coaching qualifications straight and above board he'd gain a bit more credibility. The way this issue has developed implies possible learning difficulties."

There is no insult or joke there, if there is please explain.

That quote contains simply my suggestion at the time on why Ince is apparently 'avoiding' completing his coaching badges. I'm surprised nobody else spotted it as there really was little else to explain his continuing reluctance to complete what appears by all accounts to be a simple straight forward coaching course.

From that single post I took lots of unfair criticism, including the usual accusations of racism from certain notoriously agenda'd but shallow thinking members, with no effective intervention by moderation either so is it any wonder that I take the chance to rub a few peoples noses in it when yet again it appears that the passing of time has proven my comments to be accurate.

Your premature and inappropriate crowing bites you on the @rse.

Lovely.

[thenodrog]

Your premature and inappropriate crowing bites you on the @rse.

Lovely.

How?

[thenodrog]

It doesn't appear to me that your comments were accurate at all. Your interpretation of a phrase in an interview is how you are backing up a view that has no evidence to support it whatsoever. Ince is one assessment from the first steps towards his pro badge, do you think he could have gotten this far with a learning disability that you say is the reason he avoided doing his badges in the first place?

Not totally sure of the defintion of 'learning difficulties' as I guess it covers a wide range of err learning difficulties, but I'd wager anyone with a 'classroom aversion' comes under that heading?

Moving on though Ivan and taking into account his coaching note highlighted on MoTD a few weelks ago I doubt you'd bet your house against it eh?

[CrazyIvan]

Not totally sure of the defintion of 'learning difficulties' as I guess it covers a wide range of err learning difficulties, but I'd wager anyone with a 'classroom aversion' comes under that heading?

Moving on though Ivan and taking into account his coaching note highlighted on MoTD a few weelks ago I doubt you'd bet your house against it eh?

Try to justify this however you like Gordon but you've come up looking completely vain and crowing. I don't think 'classroom aversion' is classed as a learning disablilty per se. I think you'd better take a look at what a learning disablilty is before you try to use it as a weapon against Ince. Using a genuine disablility against anyone, whether they have one or not is insulting to those that do and fight to be sucessful in spite of it.

[blue phil]

Well done to Ince for implying that the whole coaching certificate taking is a waste of his time .

For somebody who has spent all his working life in a non academic career at the very highest level to be told they have to sit at a desk and be "taught" by somebody who hasn't played at the highest level is a complete joke . Unless the teacher is called Shearer or Pele or Cruyff then it's pointless because he'll know more about the game than they ever will .

It matters not a jot whether Ince is or isn't capable of sitting or passing written exams . He shouldn't even be taking them for the simple reason that they are not relevant to his position as manager . We should be applauding his honesty at having a snipe at the present system rather than sneering at his academic abilities .

Anyway , if the exams are typical of any taught in today's classrooms there'll be no problem ......he'll pass with an A or an A* regardless of his ability to use a pen .

[Amo]

For somebody who has spent all his working life in a non academic career at the very highest level to be told they have to sit at a desk and be "taught" by somebody who hasn't played at the highest level is a complete joke . Unless the teacher is called Shearer or Pele or Cruyff then it's pointless because he'll know more about the game than they ever will .

Do you watch MOTD?

[thenodrog]

Well done to Ince for implying that the whole coaching certificate taking is a waste of his time .

People will take much more notice of his opinions on the coaching qualifications if he passes the course before criticising it surely? He would then be speaking from a position of strength.

But whats so wrong with taking what is tantamount to an entrance exam if the reward is about 30k per week?

Decry the worth of it all you like Phil but I'd guess you would not stand on your principles for long should you be offered the same terms of employment?

[blue phil]

If the rules say he has to tajke it then he has to take it .

The fact remains that he could do the job perfectly as well with or without the qualification - or with any financial bonus involved .

So what's the point in it ?

Or more to the point ; what's the worth in disqualifying someone from a job because they can't pass a bloody exam that is simply not relevant to the job in the first place ?

[dr_awol]

Kinell I was spot on again! I'm expecting a whole raft of apologies and retractions from certain members whose responses to my initial post suggesting that Paul Ince suffered 'learning difficulties' were disrespectful, churlish, containg accusations of racism and basically just downright insulting.............

more anti ince

I wonder how many "supporters" on this forum are unhappy that we arnt doing a spurs atm. Its getting closer to the magic 10 games judgement point and its becoming more clear that Ince is not doing such a bad job.

So it seams the anti that Ince members will just get more personal or just live in their MH dreamland(ince can only be doing an ok/good job because it MHs team).

[imy9]

Look at the quote you two cos this is what I said........

"Maybe if he and his chums gained the necessary coaching qualifications straight and above board he'd gain a bit more credibility. The way this issue has developed implies possible learning difficulties."

There is no insult or joke there, if there is please explain.

That quote contains simply my suggestion at the time on why Ince is apparently 'avoiding' completing his coaching badges. I'm surprised nobody else spotted it as there really was little else to explain his continuing reluctance to complete what appears by all accounts to be a simple straight forward coaching course.

From that single post I took lots of unfair criticism, including the usual accusations of racism from certain notoriously agenda'd but shallow thinking members, with no effective intervention by moderation either so is it any wonder that I take the chance to rub a few peoples noses in it when yet again it appears that the passing of time has proven my comments to be accurate.

If you recall at the time I made the point that this was the same as Roeder, Southgate, Grant but you thought that only Ince has possible learning difficulties, then today you use a quote from an Ince interview where he states that the classroom "does my head in" as supporting what you thought originally which was that Ince HAS learning difficulties- this is a rubbish and is supported with no evidence but you have written it as fact.

The question I have is do you actually know what a "learning difficulty" is? I stick by what I said your words were insulting to people with learning difficulties, I am glad other people have commented on it too.

[RevidgeBlue]

Digging yourself into a right hole here Gordon me old mucker...........................

If you insist on continuing to cite a dislike of the classroom environment as evidence that Ince has "learning difficulties" surely you'll be forced to concede that his accomplishment if he does pass the badges is all the more remarkable!.

[jim mk2]

1. England, supposedly a leading football nation, has won one major tournament in its history.

2. Comparable footballing European countries such as Germany and Italy have won the World Cup and European Championship many times over.

3. The top tier of England's domestic league does not have one English manager of note.

4. The last Englishman to win the top division was Howard Wilkinson back in 1992.

5. The FA has again had to hire a foreign coach because of the poor quality of the English candidates.

The coaching/badges qualifications were an attempt by the game's governing bodies to improve that abysmal record by emulating the continental model and prevent players such as Ince switching straight from the playing field to the dug-out.

Ince should never have been allowed near Macclesfield without proper qualifications, never mind a Premier League club. As long as a discredited system allows people such as Ince to earn a living, the England team, English players and English managers will continue to underperform.

[JAL]

1. England, supposedly a leading football nation, has won one major tournament in its history.

2. Comparable footballing European countries such as Germany and Italy have won the World Cup and European Championship many times over.

3. The top tier of England's domestic league does not have one English manager of note.

4. The last Englishman to win the top division was Howard Wilkinson back in 1992.

5. The FA has again had to hire a foreign coach because of the poor quality of the English candidates.

The coaching/badges qualifications were an attempt by the game's governing bodies to improve that abysmal record by emulating the continental model and prevent players such as Ince switching straight from the playing field to the dug-out.

Ince should never have been allowed near Macclesfield without proper qualifications, never mind a Premier League club. As long as a discredited system allows people such as Ince to earn a living, the England team, English players and English managers will continue to underperform.

Excellent stuff there jim you expose and lay bare our national game.

[Majiball]

The coaching/badges qualifications were an attempt by the game's governing bodies to improve that abysmal record by emulating the continental model and prevent players such as Ince switching straight from the playing field to the dug-out.

I know for fact that the badges in this country are not even close to the continental model. Over here we start with the motor skill IE touch in a closed session IE nothing else but touches. Next it progresses to say a 3v3 and then a 7v7. On the continent (Spain and Holland) they like to play open sessions, by this I mean small sided games and they teach within those parameters. This includes perception skills and cognitive skills at all times IE a game situation, or drills that include these skills. We build up to this.

There is a lot of debate at the moment as to whether there is a need for closed drills which we have a fondness for in this country or whether we should adopt an open drills which include the afore mentioned skills. I can tell you there is a huge study at the moment on this in this country at present and the science does not support our model so far.

At the end of the day IMO there is only one country in the world I would base our model on Brazil, I cannot think of any other country that has so consistently produced top level players. FA take heed.

[jim mk2]

I know for fact that the badges in this country are not even close to the continental model. .

I was referring to the principle of the qualifications, not the detail.

[Majiball]

I was referring to the principle of the qualifications, not the detail.

Fair play I mis-interpreted that.

[DingleBaiter]

I wonder where Gerard Houllier stands in your argument Gordon? Given his previous employment before football, he's probably best placed given he's had 'cuisses de grenouilles' in both camps? Even before/after Liverpool, he's widely respected in football, especially on coaching and youth development.

Is there not a point whereby you'd think it may be prudent & a better use of your time, energy & judgement to offer a debate on the merits of Ince against your preferred incumbent for the job, as opposed to judging him based on history?

IMO we'd be no better off with Allardyce - and would probably have a greater number of detractors - on any level. I can think of an obvious reason why we're clearly in a better place than even under Hughes. For the record, IMO Hughes did a better job bringing the club onwards in more challenging times than anyone in recent memory, so it's not exactly fair, objective, reasonable or realistic to judge Ince based on that.

Again, for the record - just because one questions some of the criticism levelled at Ince, does not neccessarily make one a 'Paul-ette'. It's not all sweetness and light, but even in my most optimistic moment, I really can't see how we would have been better off overall with anyone else, much less who was on the list.