[Archived] Paul's Progress

[roversmum]

This is getting tiresome. Methinks thou dost protest too much, Drog. I have my stance, you have yours, others have theirs. Can you give it a rest please?

Oh, and if you want to find out about what learning difficulties really are, you are welcome to borrow my granddaughters for a couple of weeks - their mum will be very glad of the rest.

[dave birch]

There are four groups on here broadly speaking:

1) Consistently anti-Ince

2) Those who want him to succeed but are alarmed by some elements of his management which are in the public eye and concerned by some of the unsubstantiated stuff that is being whispered around the place

3) Withholding judgement

4) See backing Ince uncritically as being part and parcel of backing the club and cannot understand the fuss

As far as I am aware there was very little of the sort of gossip leaking out during the Hughes regime which seems to be continually emerging about the Ince regime. I am not the source of any of this stuff and the folks who are clearly have their own reasons for not going public, probably with the best interests of the club at heart, so I am not going to repeat anything I have not already seen in the public domain. I do not know whether it is a case of the rumour going round the world before truth has a chance to put his boots on or no smoke without fire but it is not good.

Then why say anything at all?

[MCMC1875]

There are four groups on here broadly speaking:

1) Consistently anti-Ince

2) Those who want him to succeed but are alarmed by some elements of his management which are in the public eye and concerned by some of the unsubstantiated stuff that is being whispered around the place

3) Withholding judgement

4) See backing Ince uncritically as being part and parcel of backing the club and cannot understand the fuss

As far as I am aware there was very little of the sort of gossip leaking out during the Hughes regime which seems to be continually emerging about the Ince regime. I am not the source of any of this stuff and the folks who are clearly have their own reasons for not going public, probably with the best interests of the club at heart, so I am not going to repeat anything I have not already seen in the public domain. I do not know whether it is a case of the rumour going round the world before truth has a chance to put his boots on or no smoke without fire but it is not good.

Very good of you to say so!

After witnessing last weekend's events, Brian Laws is a better candidate for manager than Paul Ince in my opinion.

[tonyoz]

There are four groups on here broadly speaking:

1) Consistently anti-Ince

2) Those who want him to succeed but are alarmed by some elements of his management which are in the public eye and concerned by some of the unsubstantiated stuff that is being whispered around the place

3) Withholding judgement

4) See backing Ince uncritically as being part and parcel of backing the club and cannot understand the fuss

As far as I am aware there was very little of the sort of gossip leaking out during the Hughes regime which seems to be continually emerging about the Ince regime. I am not the source of any of this stuff and the folks who are clearly have their own reasons for not going public, probably with the best interests of the club at heart, so I am not going to repeat anything I have not already seen in the public domain. I do not know whether it is a case of the rumour going round the world before truth has a chance to put his boots on or no smoke without fire but it is not good.

What is this stuff you are referring to? It surely isn't the thoroughly discredited crap we had in the gutter press at the start of the season?

Or the Villanueva tripe that you were so concerned about a couple of weeks ago? By bringing it all up again, you are lending it credibility.

All I hear is the players saying how good the spirit is.......

E.g. Nelsen in the LT recently (about Rocky).......

He said: “From Blackburn's side I think what the manager can give him, what the club can give him is something these other clubs can't give him.

[den]

I can't remember any rovers managerial appointment splitting the supporters as this one has.

I'm 100% convinced that the majority of rovers fans weren't convinced by his appointment. By that, I mean he would have been at, or near the bottom of most lists. So, obviously it follows that only a minority thought JW had got it right.

From all the rovers fans, some are prepared to speak about their concerns and some prefer to wait and see. That's fair enough on both counts.

I do think though, that it wouldn't take too much for the fans to turn on him. He has a lot to prove at the moment.

Now don't start giving the "give him a chance" comments, that's simply how I see the current situation. As ever I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[broadsword]

Oh give him a chance, Den!

[RevidgeBlue]

There are four groups on here broadly speaking:

1) Consistently anti-Ince

2) Those who want him to succeed but are alarmed by some elements of his management which are in the public eye and concerned by some of the unsubstantiated stuff that is being whispered around the place

3) Withholding judgement

4) See backing Ince uncritically as being part and parcel of backing the club and cannot understand the fuss

As far as I am aware there was very little of the sort of gossip leaking out during the Hughes regime which seems to be continually emerging about the Ince regime. I am not the source of any of this stuff and the folks who are clearly have their own reasons for not going public, probably with the best interests of the club at heart, so I am not going to repeat anything I have not already seen in the public domain. I do not know whether it is a case of the rumour going round the world before truth has a chance to put his boots on or no smoke without fire but it is not good.

Philip, in my view the above post is complete tosh (and not unusually for you since you ludicrously labelled Paul Ince "dead meat" on the back of a non story about coaching courses) full of half baked innuendo against the manager.

There has been one story in the summer by Ian Ladyman in the Daily Mail about alleged dressing room unrest which was quite categorically dismissed as rubbish by John Williams, Tom Finn and Paul Agnew at the Fans Forum last night. At the time as I recall several senior players moved to deny those rumours and the performance against Everton appeared to show the story for what it was.

There was constant unfounded speculation about RSC leaving which irritated the club to such an extent they took the unusual step for us of voicing our displeasure about it.

There was a further story in the Mail about Villenueva where the insinuation was more or less that that the player was upset that Paul Ince was ignoring him when he passed him in the corridor. According to John Williams a crucial sentence from that story was changed to alter the whole tone of the piece, Carlos actually said he was upset about not being picked for first team selection. JW said that if Paul Ince is anything in comparison to the other managers we've had under him, he's a players man who'll put his arms round them if necessary so that article really couldn't have been further from the truth. As a side issue the chairman was also upset about the inference CV is left alone to fend for himself on frozen pizza etc. saying no club does more to help new players settle in.

According to Paul Agnew there's a bloke in London who makes a very lucrative living out of translating foreign interviews literally word for word and selling them on to English papers. Sometimes a word or two here or there can be altered or given a slightly different slant or the original spirit or tone of the piece can be lost completely.

Nevertheless please specify exactly what this unfavourable "gossip" is supposedly continually emerging about the Ince regime - don't hide behind vague accusations - specifics please.

[dave birch]

He has a lot to prove at the moment.

Den, I know you didn't want the others to say "give him a try", but as you state, he has a lot to prove at the moment, but, given what you said, what's the option?

Does he get the chance, or what?

[heysham rover]

Philip, in my view the above post is complete tosh (and not unusually for you since you ludicrously labelled Paul Ince "dead meat" on the back of a non story about coaching courses) full of half baked innuendo against the manager.

There has been one story in the summer by Ian Ladyman in the Daily Mail about alleged dressing room unrest which was quite categorically dismissed as rubbish by John Williams, Tom Finn and Paul Agnew at the Fans Forum last night. At the time as I recall several senior players moved to deny those rumours and the performance against Everton appeared to show the story for what it was.

There was constant unfounded speculation about RSC leaving which irritated the club to such an extent they took the unusual step for us of voicing our displeasure about it.

There was a further story in the Mail about Villenueva where the insinuation was more or less that that the player was upset that Paul Ince was ignoring him when he passed him in the corridor. According to John Williams a crucial sentence from that story was changed to alter the whole tone of the piece, Carlos actually said he was upset about not being picked for first team selection. JW said that if Paul Ince is anything in comparison to the other managers we've had under him, he's a players man who'll put his arms round them if necessary so that article really couldn't have been further from the truth. As a side issue the chairman was also upset about the inference CV is left alone to fend for himself on frozen pizza etc. saying no club does more to help new players settle in.

According to Paul Agnew there's a bloke in London who makes a very lucrative living out of translating foreign interviews literally word for word and selling them on to English papers. Sometimes a word or two here or there can be altered or given a slightly different slant or the original spirit or tone of the piece can be lost completely.

Nevertheless please specify exactly what this unfavourable "gossip" is supposedly continually emerging about the Ince regime - don't hide behind vague accusations - specifics please.

[RevidgeBlue]

I do think though, that it wouldn't take too much for the fans to turn on him. He has a lot to prove at the moment.

Now don't start giving the "give him a chance" comments, that's simply how I see the current situation. As ever I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Why specifically does he have "a lot to prove" Den?

He's made an ok start after the coaching staff was completely overhauled in the summer. No-one's pretending there isn't room for improvement but he's doing ok.

John Williams made the point last night that if Mark Hughes was still here and we were 9th, everyone would be quite content with that, but because it's Paul Ince in charge, 9th suddenly isn't good enough for some strange reason.

[philipl]

I am not the source of any of this stuff and the folks who are clearly have their own reasons for not going public, probably with the best interests of the club at heart, so I am not going to repeat anything I have not already seen in the public domain.

[dave birch]

philpl, if that's the case, then why say what you said?

[RevidgeBlue]

I am not the source of any of this stuff and the folks who are clearly have their own reasons for not going public, probably with the best interests of the club at heart, so I am not going to repeat anything I have not already seen in the public domain.

There isn't any "stuff" - is there Philip?

[dave birch]

Philip is stoking the fire he doesn't want to stoke!

[tonyoz]

I can't remember any rovers managerial appointment splitting the supporters as this one has.

I'm 100% convinced that the majority of rovers fans weren't convinced by his appointment. By that, I mean he would have been at, or near the bottom of most lists. So, obviously it follows that only a minority thought JW had got it right.

From all the rovers fans, some are prepared to speak about their concerns and some prefer to wait and see. That's fair enough on both counts.

I do think though, that it wouldn't take too much for the fans to turn on him. He has a lot to prove at the moment.

Now don't start giving the "give him a chance" comments, that's simply how I see the current situation. As ever I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

I'm not so sure about the "majority" thing.....many, like me, were attracted by the potential of a young manager with an embryonic track record.

Right now, I think most fans are waiting.............it is clearly seen on these boards.............when we win, there is an avalanche of bonhomie. When we lose...........there is a communal depression.

It can go either way but I am very hopeful that you will be converted before too long.

[almuncle]

I am not the source of any of this stuff and the folks who are clearly have their own reasons for not going public, probably with the best interests of the club at heart, so I am not going to repeat anything I have not already seen in the public domain.

OOOh, go on .. You know you want to....just tell us the bit about the stuff!

[dave birch]

tony, Blackburn people have looooong loooonnnng memories.

Den will be telling his great grand kid, of the great Ince debacle at Rovers.

[AussieinUk]

Den, I know you didn't want the others to say "give him a try", but as you state, he has a lot to prove at the moment, but, given what you said, what's the option?

Does he get the chance, or what?

Hey Dave - now when I say this, I am not against the current regime, but how long is this 'chance'?

Just curious

[philipl]

Nobody is denying that the support is split on the subject of the manager and den has called it right if the poll that was conducted on this forum is indicative of the wider support.

I am very glad that JW said what he did at the Fan's Forum in support of Paul Ince.

[dave birch]

Aussie, I suppose it's till it goes tits up, but it aint at the moment, but I'll admit there's always a chance

[den]

Den, I know you didn't want the others to say "give him a try", but as you state, he has a lot to prove at the moment, but, given what you said, what's the option?

Does he get the chance, or what?

Dave, yes he gets the chance, but, and this is only a personal impression that I get, because he wasn't a popular choice, he wont get too long. You should remember how fickle the rovers fans are Dave.

It's just a feeling that I get at the games. There has already been booing at Andrews and Ince's substitutions and he's not been here two minutes.

That's simply the way I see the situation Dave. If he can start to satisfy the fans with the teams displays, then he'll turn the fans on his side, but at the moment he's a bit "up against it".

The topic's called "Pauls progress" so that's my update to the fans that aren't as close to the goings on around here.

It isn't a judgement on Ince, or the team, just an opinion on the "atmosphere" - for want of a better word.

[DingleBaiter]

There are four groups on here broadly speaking:

1) Consistently anti-Ince

2) Those who want him to succeed but are alarmed by some elements of his management which are in the public eye and concerned by some of the unsubstantiated stuff that is being whispered around the place

3) Withholding judgement

4) See backing Ince uncritically as being part and parcel of backing the club and cannot understand the fuss

As far as I am aware there was very little of the sort of gossip leaking out during the Hughes regime which seems to be continually emerging about the Ince regime. I am not the source of any of this stuff and the folks who are clearly have their own reasons for not going public, probably with the best interests of the club at heart, so I am not going to repeat anything I have not already seen in the public domain. I do not know whether it is a case of the rumour going round the world before truth has a chance to put his boots on or no smoke without fire but it is not good.

Piffle - Philip, thought you had more 'oil in your lamp' to avoid sweeping generalisations.

You're one of the worst for alluding to the murky behind-the-scenes stuff; why not just have the courage of your convictions and just be out with it man? Otherwise you sound like one of the David Icke mob.

There WAS just as much gossip around during MH times - it's just that people tended to not have the same prejudices or propensity to listen to what they wanted to hear to fit their agendas.

Isn't it a bit simplistic to suggest people fall into camps on this one? Some do, but not all. I can't see where G fits into any of them for instance? I think your grouping is so broad it wouldn't even tickle Pareto's rule. 80% of the guff & bluster knocking Ince is probably down to around 5 or 6 posters on a consistent basis.

Sometimes this whole 'debate' focuses too much on the person rather than the performance. Don't think I'm revealing anything to suggest Ince, as a person, isn't someone who people readily seem to warm to. He's been perceived as insular, aloof, arrogant, 'thick', troubled, agricultural, 'loutish', querulous, conceited, argumentative, and numerous other 'character flaws' previously. In comparision, Brian Kidd was a lovely, polite, friendly, humble, deeply religious, well-meaning guy. Brian Kidd's problem though was he was nice and stupid at the same time; it's hard to get away with both in football, possibly one or the other. Some people will suggest Ince is not getting away with either at present.

Does it matter though in the big scheme of things? I'd suggest we're not here to like the manager-but clearly lots of the criticism of Ince is based on a dislike of the person.

[CrazyIvan]

I can't remember any rovers managerial appointment splitting the supporters as this one has.

I'm 100% convinced that the majority of rovers fans weren't convinced by his appointment. By that, I mean he would have been at, or near the bottom of most lists. So, obviously it follows that only a minority thought JW had got it right.

From all the rovers fans, some are prepared to speak about their concerns and some prefer to wait and see. That's fair enough on both counts.

I do think though, that it wouldn't take too much for the fans to turn on him. He has a lot to prove at the moment.

Now don't start giving the "give him a chance" comments, that's simply how I see the current situation. As ever I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

I don't think you're far wrong Den. Paul Ince wasn't even on my preferred manager list. What has annoyed me and I think a lot of other people is the way every rumour of discontent, every snippet of misinformation from the press, every little hint of anything slightly negative has been jumped on and expanded upon to a ridiculous extent by certain members of this board. It stinks. I must hasten to add that a lot of rumour and conjecture has been propagated by a press seemingly intent on causing discontent in a Rovers camp that seems very happy at the moment. Whilst Ince may not have been the choice of many on this board he's not done too bad a job up to now.

I was listening to Shearer commenting on he Newcastle job and saying that it takes time for a new manager to get his ideas, his systems of play and his methods across to his team. Considerable time rather than a couple of months. Ince doesn't seem to have been given the time by many people which is unfair but seems to be the way these days. Ince has only been able to get a couple of players in who are 'his' rather than the squad he inherited from Hughes. That squad, to be fair to Hughes, is pretty good but has some glaring weaknesses most notably right wing which is a position we all wanted to see filled and the club tried in vain. That has been jumped on over again by members of the board. Yes, we all know it a position that needs filling and yes we all would have loved to see it filled by a damn good player but to constantly harp on about it as a major failing of Paul Inces is pointless. I don't think it was his failing as he had only a short period of time to assess his squad and can't be expected to sign any old player for an inflated fee at the drop of a hat. Lets see what he does in January with that position.

In other areas Ince has done well. Danny Simpson looks like a decent right back and one that's doing a fine job at present. Ince is giving a number of youngsters a chance to impress which can only be positive for the club. That's a long term view rather than a short term fix as well. Andrews was signed for a small fee and has proven to be pretty decent rather than the poor lower league player a number said he would be. Fowler, well I'm not conviced at all but he's on a pay as you play deal so no major loss there. Carlos? I think the jury is still out but he looks like a player with a future if you ask me.

Ince is completing his badges which is what he is required to do. He may not enjoy all of the course but he says he is enjoying other parts of it. If you ask me Ince is doing all that could and should be expected of him as manager. He may not be the most articulate person in front of a camera but you can see that is improving as well. Ince is a young manager with a lot to prove. Lets watch how he goes about it...

[den]

I'm not so sure about the "majority" thing.....many, like me, were attracted by the potential of a young manager with an embryonic track record.

Right now, I think most fans are waiting.............it is clearly seen on these boards.............when we win, there is an avalanche of bonhomie. When we lose...........there is a communal depression.

It can go either way but I am very hopeful that you will be converted before too long.

So am I. A couple of good signings and a few more goals will help.

[dave birch]

That's OK den, but why not get behind him til things do go wrong?

I know where you are coming from, but hell be positive til it does go tits up? You can usually tel when things go wrong, but it isn't that bad at the moment.