[Archived] Paul's Progress

[den]

That's OK den, but why not get behind him til things do go wrong?

I know where you are coming from, but hell be positive til it does go tits up? You can usually tel when things go wrong, but it isn't that bad at the moment.

I go to the games Dave and get behind everyone in a Blue and White shirt, - always have done. Shouldn't stop me saying how I see the situation regarding Ince. Now if someone comes on and says they feel the situation is completely differently, then fair enough, I'll accept that. It is only an opinion.

[DingleBaiter]

Dave, yes he gets the chance, but, and this is only a personal impression that I get, because he wasn't a popular choice, he wont get too long.

It isn't a judgement on Ince, or the team, just an opinion on the "atmosphere" - for want of a better word.

Newcastle have shown what happens when you try to please the fans and make popular choices; that's ultimately the problem in listening to fools.

The one thing that seemed a big factor in setting Ince back before he started was Laudrup IMO. People possibly would have accepted Ince more if they didn't feel it was an anticlimax.

That typifies the problem here; people that haven't the intelligence, objectivity or reason to see past that story at face value are the 'empty vessels' making the most noise. There is also the factor of 'wish fulfillment' - people don't like Ince, and would rather unsettle him, boo, or stoke the fires to be rid of him rather than play the long game and give him time, support & positivity at the expense of their personal predilections.

All this stuff about 'having the best interests of the club at heart' is misdirection. No matter how much one dislikes Ince, worships at the Welsh altar, enjoys moaning & negativity, all the sniping, boo-ing etc. is counter-productive. Show some character, some spine, some Dunkirk spirit, some faith, some belief; no wonder this country's going down the tubes if all this cowardice is anything to go by.

[dr_awol]

Ince is doing a good enough job atm, and the board would be happy with the current league table.

At this rate he will never be sacked

ince has got next four tricky games (2 away and Chelsea)to deal with , which should be a good test. i would be happy with 4points from.

p.s

most of the people on this forum would be happy with the league table if MH was manager. Andrews and Robbie would be inspired signings.

[RevidgeBlue]

I go to the games Dave and get behind everyone in a Blue and White shirt, - always have done. Shouldn't stop me saying how I see the situation regarding Ince. Now if someone comes on and says they feel the situation is completely differently, then fair enough, I'll accept that. It is only an opinion.

Instead of just saying "he has a lot to prove" and "he's up against it" and pinning it on the rest of the support how do you actually think he's doing overall den?

Better, worse or about the same as could realistically be expected?

I'd go for the latter myself given the way we performed for 75% of last season under Hughes.

[den]

Instead of just saying "he has a lot to prove" and "he's up against it" and pinning it on the rest of the support how do you actually think he's doing overall den?

Better, worse or about the same as could realistically be expected?

I'd go for the latter myself given the way we performed for 75% of last season under Hughes.

When I said "he's a lot to prove", I meant in order to get all the fans fully behind him, not to me personally.

I've thought all along, that he should have come in, kept the squad together until he'd had time to assess it properly, say January at least, and added a couple of quality signings to it. That would, IMO have been the best way forward.

The times I've been impressed were the games against Everton home and away, I thought we were excellent. We've not been able to build on that though.

So, I suppose the answer to your question, is worse than expected, but that's a bit misleading, because I wasn't convinced about him in the first place.

[brfcs5359]

Newcastle have shown what happens when you try to please the fans and make popular choices; that's ultimately the problem in listening to fools.

The one thing that seemed a big factor in setting Ince back before he started was Laudrup IMO. People possibly would have accepted Ince more if they didn't feel it was an anticlimax.

That typifies the problem here; people that haven't the intelligence, objectivity or reason to see past that story at face value are the 'empty vessels' making the most noise. There is also the factor of 'wish fulfillment' - people don't like Ince, and would rather unsettle him, boo, or stoke the fires to be rid of him rather than play the long game and give him time, support & positivity at the expense of their personal predilections.

All this stuff about 'having the best interests of the club at heart' is misdirection. No matter how much one dislikes Ince, worships at the Welsh altar, enjoys moaning & negativity, all the sniping, boo-ing etc. is counter-productive. Show some character, some spine, some Dunkirk spirit, some faith, some belief; no wonder this country's going down the tubes if all this cowardice is anything to go by.

Spot on. And also post above CrazyIvan.

I wanted Ince as soon as Mark Hughes 'went off the rails'. He had to go, it was obvious as we persevered in vain through last winter. Brum away was the last straw. A team without direction, without leadership, and in the end without effort. As fans you chatter down the pub and as the final 10 games unfolded I wished for an Ince at Rovers. Delighted.

Gone is cowardly defensive dour approach that gets you only so far. Dunn, Cook (at City) and others have all remarked on Hughes negative approach. Morale seems high and we've gone from 'hoof it anywhere' to 'get it down and play'. One of Ince's problems is Hughes didn't particularly sign that sort of player so he's trying to make a silk purse out of sows ear. None the less it's the style and approach that is impressive. It's nailed onthe personal will change I have no doubt so criticising the likes of Fowler is pointless.

We seem fitter, we dominate play more than we have done. We have had a good start given a changeover and style makeover. 9th and we are scoring. However we could score a lot more with this style of play. The only disappointment has been the finishing.

[RevidgeBlue]

When I said "he's a lot to prove", I meant in order to get all the fans fully behind him, not to me personally.

I've thought all along, that he should have come in, kept the squad together until he'd had time to assess it properly, say January at least, and added a couple of quality signings to it. That would, IMO have been the best way forward.

The times I've been impressed were the games against Everton home and away, I thought we were excellent. We've not been able to build on that though.

So, I suppose the answer to your question, is worse than expected, but that's a bit misleading, because I wasn't convinced about him in the first place.

Ok den, fair comment, thanks for that.

[almuncle]

This is getting tiresome. Methinks thou dost protest too much, Drog. I have my stance, you have yours, others have theirs. Can you give it a rest please?

Oh, and if you want to find out about what learning difficulties really are, you are welcome to borrow my granddaughters for a couple of weeks - their mum will be very glad of the rest.

[CrazyIvan]

I've just heard Arsene Wenger say about Luis Aragones and Fenerbache that it takes a new manager 6 months to get his team to play the way he wants them to play. 6 months! That puts an interesting perspective on Ince's start here. Maybe with a bit of thought it should be more obvious that a team will resort to what they've been doing for the past 4 years in the heat of a Premiership match rather than play the way their new manager has told them and only been training them for a couple of months. So while Rovers have been passing it about a bit more the basic fall back will be the lump it over the top and it'll take another 3 or 4 months of training and playing to see the difference. It actually makes a lot of sense and patience is the name of the game for the Rovers fans to see the real Paul Ince's Blue and White army.

[gumboots]

I've just heard Arsene Wenger say about Luis Aragones and Fenerbache that it takes a new manager 6 months to get his team to play the way he wants them to play. 6 months! That puts an interesting perspective on Ince's start here. Maybe with a bit of thought it should be more obvious that a team will resort to what they've been doing for the past 4 years in the heat of a Premiership match rather than play the way their new manager has told them and only been training them for a couple of months. So while Rovers have been passing it about a bit more the basic fall back will be the lump it over the top and it'll take another 3 or 4 months of training and playing to see the difference. It actually makes a lot of sense and patience is the name of the game for the Rovers fans to see the real Paul Ince's Blue and White army.

I heard that comment from wenger too and thought about the "I'll give it ten games attitude" of many on here. Many have been having a go at Ince from day one and yet even if you take preseason into account it's been less than 4 months of the six Wenger reckons you need. this is one of the longest serving managers in the league, well-respected for his management skills even if you don't like some of the things he says or whatever, and he's saying 6 months to start to see what the manager wants. Presumably 6 months is when they understand what the manager expects and do it more often than not, although I wouldn't think even in 6 months you'd see the finished article. Hughes did wonders with wales but it's taken till now for Toshack to get the younger players through that he wants to start seeing. It seems to me that perhaps Hughes and his approach are great when there is a lot of rubbish to clear up as there was with Wales when he took over and with Rovers in terms of training methods and disaffected personnel who had fallen out with souness, but perhaps as with Wales we now need to change and this is going to take time. Even Savage who was Toshack's harshest critic had to admit that bringing in young players and getting Wales to look like a team moving forward were to toshack's credit.

[den]

3 yrs for a manager to build a team of his own, is the usual quote.

[speeeeeeedie]

From the Roque thread;

Last season our Prem record showed that we had scored 16 and let in 8 by this same week thats a gd of +8. This season we've scored half as many goals 8 and let in almost twice as many 14 giving a goal difference of -6! A massive 14 goals to the bad! 9 games 21 points v 8 games with 11 points. That is plain FACT! So if thats attacking football then you can bloody well keep it.

We were flying at the start of last season, it went pear shaped in November and never really recovered. I rember plenty on here mumbling that if we hadn't have started the way we did we would have been relegation candidates.

I'm a Rovers optimist and think we'll be fine. The league is shaping up to be a lot closer this season, apart from the top 3. Newcastle's draw last night was another good result for us.

I do find it strange that it's late October and there have only been 8 league games played.

[waggy]

I can't remember any rovers managerial appointment splitting the supporters as this one has.

I'm 100% convinced that the majority of rovers fans weren't convinced by his appointment. By that, I mean he would have been at, or near the bottom of most lists. So, obviously it follows that only a minority thought JW had got it right.

From all the rovers fans, some are prepared to speak about their concerns and some prefer to wait and see. That's fair enough on both counts.

I do think though, that it wouldn't take too much for the fans to turn on him. He has a lot to prove at the moment.

Now don't start giving the "give him a chance" comments, that's simply how I see the current situation. As ever I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

most rovers fans i talk to think ince is doing ok,this site represents 10% off our support at most and then there are about 20 who continue to bitch about everything that is paul ince

[1864roverite]

Imy, in answering your question I cannot give an answer why Hughes didnt sign a quality central midfielder.

Maybe he didnt have funds.

We know that he went for Diarra but couldnt match Pompy's wages.

He signed Vogel on a free and he seemed to fit the bill perfectly, but as we know now he is injured and out for some time.

It maybe that following the Newcastle scenario when Rovers refused him permission to speak to them, or rather declined the Geordies offer, the club seemed resigned to the fact that Hughes would be leaving and decided that he was NOT the man to spend any money on new players.

Its all ifs and buts, but as a supporter, it has saddended me that over and above everything that has happened, the club still has a central midfield void that had needed to be filled with quality for 2 years now.

I am not against Paul Ince, I will reserve my opinion on his performance as manager and want him to do the best. What I dont accept is the excuses put out in the media about not having enough time. The senior management knew of the problems in midfield because they have had the information put before them in the form of Hughes's requests for signings and it is that single point that has yet to be addressed. The interim signing of Andrews is NOT sufficient to fill a stop gap and appears to be some sort of panic buy.

BRFC is not a broken toy, it needed tinkering rather than wholesale changes. It was a solid top 7 club with ambitions of finishing top 6 this season. It is now a fact the club must have lower ambitions based on the comments laid out so far, what I mean by that is expect a long season, it will be hard etc.

In all honesty, the club shouldnt be coming out with stuff like that. It is a settled squad that needed tlc rather than the likes of Fowler coming in.

We know the club has a relative small amount of debt, it is minor and is more than manageable.

We know the club has funds to buy quality players if they are available.

We know that our fans are not gullible like the ones down south and it is unfair for any faction of the club to think that we can be hoodwinked with excuses.

I remain to be totally convinced wit the back room set up but as a fan all I want is Rovers to continue to progress rather than regress. Its as simple as that.

[waggy]

so if paul ince had spent money on players who turned out to be poor,or no better than the players that are already here that would be ok.mark hughes days at ewood were numbered from last jan,everyone realised he would be away at the 1st chance,i do not blame the club for not letting him spend money.who was left to advise ince were our problems laid,1884/den/philip/rev all the professional staff left with hughes

[Amo]

Is Vogel really injured? I've heard he just doesn't figure in Ince's plans.

[1864roverite]

1884 = Kronenburg Lager Waggy !!

the man with the knowledge would be a certain John Williams, they eyes and ears of the club and the man with ALL of the inside knowledge.

The man with his hand in evry pie and faction of the operating side of the club, thats who.

[waggy]

gets better the chairman picks the team,sounds like newcastle /man city

[RevidgeBlue]

1884 = Kronenburg Lager Waggy !!

the man with the knowledge would be a certain John Williams, they eyes and ears of the club and the man with ALL of the inside knowledge.

The man with his hand in evry pie and faction of the operating side of the club, thats who.

John Williams doesn't make the footballing decisions, and rightly so.

He might tell a manager we can't afford a certain player etc. but that's as far as it goes.

[DingleBaiter]

Imy, in answering your question I cannot give an answer why Hughes didnt sign a quality central midfielder.

...... Its all ifs and buts, but as a supporter, it has saddended me that over and above everything that has happened, the club still has a central midfield void that had needed to be filled with quality for 2 years now.

.... What I dont accept is the excuses put out in the media about not having enough time. The senior management knew of the problems in midfield because they have had the information put before them in the form of Hughes's requests for signings and it is that single point that has yet to be addressed. The interim signing of Andrews is NOT sufficient to fill a stop gap and appears to be some sort of panic buy.

.... In all honesty, the club shouldnt be coming out with stuff like that. It is a settled squad that needed tlc rather than the likes of Fowler coming in.

.... I remain to be totally convinced wit the back room set up but as a fan all I want is Rovers to continue to progress rather than regress. Its as simple as that.

Vogel's not injured - I'd suggest it's more that Ince doesn't rate him. Ince is a big proponent of how the players act in training, off-field and folks pulling their lemons probably don't wash with him. Gallagher, Vogel, Benedict, Sergio, Pedersen?

You seem to be a big fan of conjecture and assumption based on previous posts. We can all read whatever we want to into any situation, and I'm glad the Rovers aren't as 'media friendly' as some clubs. Perhaps the club was simply trying to 'manage expectations' with the response you took exception to? I do agree with your general stance and you make some good comments though

Ref the midfield void - one of Hughes's targets for this close season was Jason Koumas; he was playing the 'long game' to try and get him on a free.

How would that have gone down with the Hughes evangelists I wonder? Spending no money on someone he's already got an obvious (Welsh/social?) existing link with. Hmmm, wonder if the same criteria being applied to Fowler, Andrews etc. would be used to criticise MH in that instance? Probably not.

[1864roverite]

John Williams doesn't make the footballing decisions, and rightly so.

He might tell a manager we can't afford a certain player etc. but that's as far as it goes.

Is that not a footballing decision Rev ?

I dont think for one moment JW would pick the team BUT he would have the inside knowledge of the squad that we were a CENTRAL midfielder short and that as HE had sold BENTLEY we may need an adequate replacement.

That is the scenario I am painting.

Its not criticism, its an observation.

[CrazyIvan]

Is that not a footballing decision Rev ?

I dont think for one moment JW would pick the team BUT he would have the inside knowledge of the squad that we were a CENTRAL midfielder short and that as HE had sold BENTLEY we may need an adequate replacement.

That is the scenario I am painting.

Its not criticism, its an observation.

I would say a financial decision not a footballing one.

[DingleBaiter]

1884 = Kronenburg Lager Waggy !!

the man with the knowledge would be a certain John Williams, they eyes and ears of the club and the man with ALL of the inside knowledge.

The man with his hand in evry pie and faction of the operating side of the club, thats who.

You're an expert in misinformation aren't you? You're not a certain A.Campbell, spin-meister in disguise are you?

For you to come out with that statement, suggest you've truly little comprehension of the interaction of JW in the club. There's a football line, and a business line, with a clearly-defined overlap and interaction between the two. It's worked that way since a certain KMD & another JW were doing their thing down Ewood way.

[1864roverite]

DB dont be so daft of course I have an understanding of what JW is about and his role at the club.

He certainly will have the final say so on purse strings.

He most certainly has an interest in the playing squad and it would be detrimental to his role of he didnt have a full understanding of how a club and its players work as a team.

As a supporter of the club himself, I am almost certain he will share the same views as its supporters.

so I remain in my view that he is a very important person making footballing decisions ALONG with his board members and management.

[imy9]

Am I the only person to see much irony in the criticism on the subject of what constitutes correct terminology from somebody who has chosen the name 'CrazyIvan'!

The term 'Learning difficulty' is recent and so PC it's untrue. Have you read my original post that stirred up all the girlies so much? The fact that it appears to be correct has you lot all stupidly lining up to fight a lost cause.

Read the post and it was insulting, you have no idea what learning difficulty means so why keep using the phrase? I would suggest letting this slide as you have dug a big enough hole.

It was a solid top 7 club with ambitions of finishing top 6 this season. It is now a fact the club must have lower ambitions based on the comments laid out so far, what I mean by that is expect a long season, it will be hard etc.

We were a solid club but when clubs that finished below us, e.g.

Fulham, Man City, Portsmouth, Spurs etc have spent a lot of money to improve their sides, we cannot keep purchasing cheap players and expecting miracles. PI recognised this and is now trying to develop the youth team as this is the way forward for Rovers as unless we get a rich sugar daddy we cannot succeed in any other way.