[Archived] Paul's Progress

[Exiled in Toronto]

I am not sniping.

To suggest that a past long-term captain of Man Yoo, Inter and England won't be able to command respect through his playing record is ludicrous. Especially as, of the only 2 players we have who possess Champions League medals to throw in his face, one has just signed a new contract and the other has finally got himself fit and seemingly motivated - something he couldn't be arsed to do under the wise and gravitas-laden Hughes.

I think I preferred your mode of the previous x years of putting a positive spin on everything that came out of Ewood, no matter how much it strained credulity, at least those posts were amusing.

[John]

I don't think it helps to continually mention it (lack of finances). He seems to be mentioning it in every interview at the moment (whether it be via the written press, or on the TV).

The situation is that we don't have much cash and Ince knew that when he took the job. He may be trying to create a siege mentality situation (and it may be working) but it is coming across more like a moan.

IMO, Hughes started to go on about it near the end of his tenure, as he was getting increasingly frustrated with the situation.

[imy9]

Are you Paul Ince's agent?

I am not sniping. If you read my contribution I DO NOT SAY he has not got the respect of the dressing room.

I do think that continually going on about lack of transfer funds (this has to be at least his third comment in three weeks on the subject) makes him look daft when for whatever reasons, he started with a budget of £10m to spend and turned in an £8m profit and (unlike the previous regime), did not manage to get the big player(s)- the right winger- they went for.

Hughes was going on about the lack of funds continually for MONTHS.

Ince cannot win, his staff make positive comments about the players and his team are criticised for making daft comments, then when he states a fact (that Villa who have a billionaire owner, Man City- richest club in the world and Spurs, reknowned spenders) have the cash to break into the top 3 that is depressing, that is a FACT.

We will NEVER finish in the top 3 in the premier league UNLESS we spend HUNDREDS of millions of pounds, that is called realism, link that word with perspective and maybe we can move forward as a club.

[leftfooter]

Every time you post God kills a kitten.

Let's just hope for your sake then that God loves a catamite.

[philipl]

To suggest that a past long-term captain of Man Yoo, Inter and England won't be able to command respect through his playing record is ludicrous. Especially as, of the only 2 players we have who possess Champions League medals to throw in his face, one has just signed a new contract and the other has finally got himself fit and seemingly motivated - something he couldn't be arsed to do under the wise and gravitas-laden Hughes.

I think I preferred your mode of the previous x years of putting a positive spin on everything that came out of Ewood, no matter how much it strained credulity, at least those posts were amusing.

The point I am making is that Ince's personality is clearly very different from Hughes and whereas Hughes has that presence which immediately commands respect and attention, Ince hasn't.

Is that a problem? Do you agree or disagree?

Equally, at Macclesfield or MK Dons, simply having his playing track record could shut even the biggest ego up. Now at Rovers, he has players who have achieved a higher reward than he achieved so the difference between Ince's track record and the players he is managing is no longer so sharply defined and he cannot use it as the sure fire winner for shutting them up without losing some credibility and authority. Ince complains when the internationals come round there are no players left at Brockhall- 17 of them are current internationals.

Is it not obvious that Ince has to be more discerning about how he plays his track record compared with his days at Moss Rose and MK Stadium?

[imy9]

The point I am making is that Ince's personality is clearly very different from Hughes and whereas Hughes has that presence which immediately commands respect and attention, Ince hasn't.

Is that a problem? Do you agree or disagree?

Equally, at Macclesfield or MK Dons, simply having his playing track record could shut even the biggest ego up. Now at Rovers, he has players who have achieved a higher reward than he achieved so the difference between Ince's track record and the players he is managing is no longer so sharply defined and he cannot use it as the sure fire winner for shutting them up without losing some credibility and authority. Ince complains when the internationals come round there are no players left at Brockhall- 17 of them are current internationals.

Is it not obvious that Ince has to be more discerning about how he plays his track record compared with his days at Moss Rose and MK Stadium?

How does Ince not get that instant respect?

39th greatest Man Utd player of all time, Hughes was 19th.

Ince and hughes are similar in a lot of ways and their records are similar too.

Out of interest how do you know that Ince used his "name" to shut people at his previous clubs?

[DingleBaiter]

The point I am making is that Ince's personality is clearly very different from Hughes and whereas Hughes has that presence which immediately commands respect and attention, Ince hasn't.

Is that a problem? Do you agree or disagree?

Equally, at Macclesfield or MK Dons, simply having his playing track record could shut even the biggest ego up. Now at Rovers, he has players who have achieved a higher reward than he achieved so the difference between Ince's track record and the players he is managing is no longer so sharply defined and he cannot use it as the sure fire winner for shutting them up without losing some credibility and authority. Ince complains when the internationals come round there are no players left at Brockhall- 17 of them are current internationals.

Is it not obvious that Ince has to be more discerning about how he plays his track record compared with his days at Moss Rose and MK Stadium?

It's a fair point you're making Philip, but surely it's more than just a function of playing track record against presence?

How would Big Sam fare? Not exactly an illustrious playing record at the highest level, ditto Phil Brown, Ferguson, Shankly, Stein, Clough, Benitez et al.

Starting to sound like the David Batty/Faz thing all over again, if you want us to believe that's how it is at Rovers these days still Philip?

I think Ince has a bit more oil in his lamp than simply just playing on his achievements. Equally, I agree to some extent, his personality does not appear to have the distance away from the players some managers seem to have. Hughes came across very cerebral, measured, intelligent - possibly values he's learned from Mrs Hughes's company. Ince is completely different in almost every respect (no pun intended) but that doesn't mean he can't do the job - or will be handicapped in any way because of it. Maybe he doesn't want to change to suit everyone on here after all?

Just as with the Matthias quotes, the public perception of Ince is secondary to what they achieve with the team in private. Not saying it's not important, just not the most important thing.

It's like all the snottiness about Boris Johnston - no matter how he comes across as a bumbling buffoon, he's clearly good at something to get where he is and he patently doesn't let it bother him.

I do think Ince is trying to change and learn and settle - if only because his eyebrows aren't as hyperactive these days - but he's not going to one for Debretts just yet.

[CrazyIvan]

The point I am making is that Ince's personality is clearly very different from Hughes and whereas Hughes has that presence which immediately commands respect and attention, Ince hasn't.

Is that a problem? Do you agree or disagree?

Equally, at Macclesfield or MK Dons, simply having his playing track record could shut even the biggest ego up. Now at Rovers, he has players who have achieved a higher reward than he achieved so the difference between Ince's track record and the players he is managing is no longer so sharply defined and he cannot use it as the sure fire winner for shutting them up without losing some credibility and authority. Ince complains when the internationals come round there are no players left at Brockhall- 17 of them are current internationals.

Is it not obvious that Ince has to be more discerning about how he plays his track record compared with his days at Moss Rose and MK Stadium?

The respect thing is your opinion. You can't possibly know unless you've met them both. Have you?

Why should he 'play his track record' at all? He's the manager! Again this is all based on your opinion and not based on any kind of fact. If it is based on fact, prove it to us.

[philipl]

Everyone can see that Mark Hughes has that aura which instills respect. You wouldn't want to receive the hairdryer treatment from him so he was capable of instilling fear of failure into his players.

Ince is a very different kettle of fish. He doesn't come over with the same authority and sense of purpose.

So he has to use other methods of inspiring and driving his players. Presumably he has to appear expert (knowing the game and having been in all the situations the players are likely to encounter) and inspire loyalty from his charges. He was clearly capable of doing that with the lads at Macclesfield and MK Dons. However. now he has players who can turn round to him and say, "OK let's see your Champions League Winner's Medal then" and he hasn't got one, his strength of personality is much more important relative to his playing track record and achievements.

That is the context I introduced this point in.

I think it is non-controversial.

Once again CrazyIvan your powers of reading are completely failing you.

[Exiled in Toronto]

The point I am making is that Ince's personality is clearly very different from Hughes and whereas Hughes has that presence which immediately commands respect and attention, Ince hasn't.

Is that a problem? Do you agree or disagree?

Equally, at Macclesfield or MK Dons, simply having his playing track record could shut even the biggest ego up. Now at Rovers, he has players who have achieved a higher reward than he achieved so the difference between Ince's track record and the players he is managing is no longer so sharply defined and he cannot use it as the sure fire winner for shutting them up without losing some credibility and authority. Ince complains when the internationals come round there are no players left at Brockhall- 17 of them are current internationals.

Is it not obvious that Ince has to be more discerning about how he plays his track record compared with his days at Moss Rose and MK Stadium?

Clearly they are different personalities. However, I don't fully agree on the point of Hughes's 'presence'. Although he was far more articulate than Ince, his constant blaming of referees - even when confronted with irrefutable video evidence - and trumpeting of the abilities of himself and his coaching staff took away from his credibility somewhat for me

Ince comes across as a bit more genuine to me, once you get used to his obvious discomfort in front of the camera and those random eyebrows. I was particularly taken by his comments on Reid's injury where I got the clear impression that he genuinely cared about the lad. Having said that, I can see why people would find him less impressive.

Whether that extends to the brain-dead entity known as the modern footballer I'm not sure. I don't think they would even watch his interviews as it would mean switching off their Playstations. Sir Alf is the best example of a completely uninspiring interviewee on TV who was able to command 100% repect in the dressing room, though I'm not saying Ince is in any way like him, only that public and dressing room personas are not necessarily correlated. Shearer the same.

As to Ince having to change his methods; again, anyone would have to adjust after such a promotion. Hughes would have had to adjust from international management where you don't have the disaffected players moping about the place for example. I don't know where you get your insights on his Macc / MK style from. The only in-depth article I read on his MK days seemed to suggest that in fact he used anything but a 'show us yer medals' approach, and that it was the contrast between the big-time charlie expectation and the approachable reality that most resonated with his players.

I would suggest that, rather than his medal colection, it is the qualities that made him a popular and respected captain of three of the world's biggest teams that he will be relying on in this job. As captain of Man Yoo, Inter and England, he led men who had achieved more in their careers, and I don't recall anyone ever calling him a bad captain.

[AndyC]

The point I am making is that Ince's personality is clearly very different from Hughes and whereas Hughes has that presence which immediately commands respect and attention, Ince hasn't.

Is that a problem? Do you agree or disagree?

Equally, at Macclesfield or MK Dons, simply having his playing track record could shut even the biggest ego up. Now at Rovers, he has players who have achieved a higher reward than he achieved so the difference between Ince's track record and the players he is managing is no longer so sharply defined and he cannot use it as the sure fire winner for shutting them up without losing some credibility and authority. Ince complains when the internationals come round there are no players left at Brockhall- 17 of them are current internationals.

Is it not obvious that Ince has to be more discerning about how he plays his track record compared with his days at Moss Rose and MK Stadium?

totally disagree - from the sources that actually know him and have seen him in action with the players. why do you think he doesn't command respect? Can you back that up with ANYTHING at all?

yes - he's more of a motivator and gets closer to his players (but wouldn't you agree that martin o'neil is lauded for doing the same thing)

[BuckyRover]

A these little character nuances are in your head.

It is more about your prejudices than anything based in fact.

Where is Hughes' Champions League medal?

What has Hughes done that Ince hasn't done that will mean he is and always will be a better manager?

Answer nothing. Ince has won more things as a manager, that is always a good thing to start with.

[CrazyIvan]

Is it not obvious that Ince has to be more discerning about how he plays his track record compared with his days at Moss Rose and MK Stadium?

You wrote that...

Once again CrazyIvan your powers of reading are completely failing you.

I commented on that. My powers of reading are completely failing me are they?

[philipl]

see post 1285.

[OJRovers]

To be fair Philipl I usually agree with what you post, but I think in this case your agrument is based a bit too much on assumptions and our perceptions about the characters involved.

We don't know what Ince is like behind the scenes and there are plenty of successful managers who either a) haven't got a top playing record or B ) come across as not commanding.

I think that if Benni said to Ince "show us your Champions League medal", Ince would say "This is a Premiership/FA Cup/League cup game, show me your winners medals!" (he's won them all)

[CrazyIvan]

see post 1285.

That makes no sense whatsoever. You asserted that Ince has to be careful how he 'plays his track record'. Why should he need to 'play his track record'? He is the manager. If I said to my boss 'prove to me your a good boss by showing me what you have done in the past', what do you think my boss would say? Same thing here. His playing record has nothing to do with the fact he is the boss.

None of what you have said is based in fact. Nothing of it is. It's all based on your own opinion and nothing more.

[leftfooter]

That makes no sense whatsoever. You asserted that Ince has to be careful how he 'plays his track record'. Why should he need to 'play his track record'? He is the manager. If I said to my boss 'prove to me your a good boss by showing me what you have done in the past', what do you think my boss would say? Same thing here. His playing record has nothing to do with the fact he is the boss.

None of what you have said is based in fact. Nothing of it is. It's all based on your own opinion and nothing more.

TBF, the last manager to manage an EPL winning side who could show his European Cup winner playing medals was King Kenny - 14/15 years ago.

Besides, 1. The idea that RSC would get involved in such badinage is ridiculous; 2. He didn't actually play in the final per se, he was only a sub.

[DingleBaiter]

Loving some of the wordplay today, catamite - badinage - keep up the good work guys!

[JAL]

I think philpl makes an interesting point, but then again non of us ever worked with either Paul Ince or Mark Hughes to be able to form the conclusion but a I do like it when philipl suggests the words 'a sense of purpose' on the ambitions of both candidates.

Hughes seemed more driven to acheive his goal which was to go all the way to the top but with Mathias you feel that Ince and him are just both lucky to be involved in the premier league and there the ambition ends.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Hughes seemed more driven to acheive his goal which was to go all the way to the top but with Mathias you feel that Ince and him are just both lucky to be involved in the premier league and there the ambition ends.

Probably true, but then the downside was that Hughes only ever saw us as a stepping stone whereas Ince could be our Joe Royal - Oldham, Fat Sam - Bolton or Moyes - Everton.

[Bennisfromheaven]

Probably true, but then the downside was that Hughes only ever saw us as a stepping stone whereas Ince could be our Joe Royal - Oldham, Fat Sam - Bolton or Moyes - Everton.

Isnt Ince going to manage England & then Inter after us!?!?! ....or was it the other way around!!?!!

I hope he does well enough to be considered for any of these scenarios

[leftfooter]

Probably true, but then the downside was that Hughes only ever saw us as a stepping stone whereas Ince could be our Joe Royal - Oldham, Fat Sam - Bolton or Moyes - Everton.

Do not delude yourself EIT.

You're forgetting that Ince just walked out on MK Dons at the first big offer that came along, and to a club he derided in the past for being 'small'. He's as mercenary as the rest of them.

Granted Royle put in a shift at Oldham, but left them for Everton.

Ditto Fat Sam at Bolton, but then walked out on them, leaving them in the lurch and tried to nick all the best players and staff.

As for Moyes, should one come calling, he would leave for a bigger club at the drop of a hat. His recent highly lucrative contract-signing saga lends new meaning to the word cynicism. Hold a gun to the club's head, whinge at every opportunity to the press about lack of money/investors/decent contract offer, and then produce a team playing the the most functional football imaginable. He’s another one in the Hughes/Redknapp/O'Leary mold that would risk the financial stability of the club for his own personal glorification. And didn't he walk out on PNE as soon as Everton came knocking?

[LeChuck]

Probably true, but then the downside was that Hughes only ever saw us as a stepping stone whereas Ince could be our Joe Royal - Oldham, Fat Sam - Bolton or Moyes - Everton.

I have to agree with leftfooter here.

If Paul Ince does become what you wrote there, the only reason will be because he never achieved anything with us to warrant a better job. Personally I'd rather we have two excellent years out of him than five average ones.

[92er]

Thats not really what he said in his interview.

He said that the 3 clubs of Spurs, Villa and City are the ones with plenty of cash and will be looking to push the top 3, he never said we cant, just that we dont have the resources to compete with them in the market, which is 100% true.

He said that the Villa are one of the sides, with their financial clout, who can challenge the big four, along with MC and Spurs.

"We haven't got that luxury at Blackburn".

So, in a way, not a totally negative comment. My problem is that he had made a very similar one in the LT both last Thursday and last Saturday about Boro-saying that they also had a lot bigger financial clout than us.

As Dingle Baiter has suggested, it is not good PR. When we season ticket holders come to consider renewing, and taking account of the fact we will lose to the top 4 teams, that Bolton is always grim, will there be any point in getting a new season ticket? It would be much less painful, and much less expensive, to just buy tickest for the remaining games.

[Exiled in Toronto]

I have to agree with leftfooter here.

If Paul Ince does become what you wrote there, the only reason will be because he never achieved anything with us to warrant a better job. Personally I'd rather we have two excellent years out of him than five average ones.

Yes, I take the point, but I suspect Oldham and Bolton fans look on the reigns of Fat Sam and Joe as golden eras more than a pedestrian few years. I think the issue was not they hadn't achieved much but doubts as to whether or not they could achieve as much elsewhere, which turned out to be mostly justified.

If we win a cup and finish in the top 6 and a Spurs/Villa etc come calling, I think Ince would go. Otherwise, I hope he would realise that his CV needs to show a solid spell of achievement and sound stewardship in one place, leaving it in better condition than he found it.

Mathias I agree with - pathetically gratefull to work at this level, despite having managed Pat Nevin at Tranmere.

But then Harford probably didn't think he'd ever be managing a team in the Champions League.