[Archived] Paul's Progress

[Hasta]

Since the appointment I've made various cases as to why Ince might work out OK and also for him to be given time. Yesterday did worry me quite a bit.

Everyone knows that you have to play (to quote Mr Souness) in your face football against Arsenal. We embarrassingly let them knock it around at will. No snap in the tackle, no urgency. Also we lacked organisation at the back, summed up by their 2nd goal. It's fine praising Arsenal for their 26 pass build up but when the cross comes in with one striker there he should not get a free header against two defenders.

The positive side of the Ince tactics is that we do seem to commit more men forward on attacks, but this is no good if the players aren't good enough or it's costing us goals at the other end.

I'm still undecided and am not going to state we have got the wrong man yet. However next weekend is a huge game. Fulham at home is obviously a game every would put down as one we can win, and most clubs wanting to avoid a relegation battle would say one they should win. Should we lose, or performance lamely, in that then I will officially move off the fence into the 'we are in trouble' camp.

[bubblerrovers]

Ince takes over a club that finished seventh in the Premier and would think that he was taking over a solid all round squad. You can't blame him for thinking that.

We all know different, don't we.

I think the penny will well and truly have started to drop by now.

Anyone who thinks it would be any different with Hughes here is just plain barking.

Come on, If Hughes was in charge i'm 100% confident we'd of had a much better start. We wouldn't of Signed Fowler or Andrews, and i doubt Brad would of left, I'm sure Bents would of gone but i reckon MH would of replaced him well

[dlukeg1]

I have now seen every game of the season and feel the need to let off some steam - apologies in advance.

Lets asses the facts :

Everton game - Great game - end to end stuff but we won in the 93rd minute, against an Everton side that was a shadow of its former self, we could easily have lost that game but we didn't and I like many others got caught up in the euphoria of the win and that papered over the evident cracks in the team - defense and midfield are severely lacking.

Hull - no creativity, players looked unfit, team was unbalanced and disjointed and the manager seemed unable to change tactics or personel to affect the game. One week later Hull get spanked 5-0 at home to Wigan.

Grimsby - One shining light of the season so far although lets see him against the prem opposition first, but when???????

West ham - bogey team my A**e, we came up against a team fighting for the same prem position we're after and we came up lacking, shipping 4 goals and missing a penalty, oh and we played an unfit aussie for 30 mins and then a lower division journeyman.

Arsenal - woefull, from the start Arsenal never left 1st gear, for years we have always pushed the top 4 sides hard, winning, losing, draws but we never led down like we did yesterday before. Midfield was Ince's forte, yet he starts with Andrews & Reid and does not change it when its clearly not working - arrogance or stupidity?

To sum up :

Andrews - we all knew, why didn't Ince? WE can't blame andrews, its not his fault that his level is 2 or 3 leagues below

Grella - unfit so will withhold judgement.

Robinson - not too shabby but no friedel - I think he'll get better.

Carlos - for gods sake try him out!

Defense - showing now how much Friedel did, what is Winterburn doing, nevermind the rest of the geriatric backroom staff?

Midfield - well I despair at this, Reid had a one wonder season yet still seems a cert for every game????Andrews simply not good enough and too like Reid, I wouldn't pick him on a Tuesday night down at witton.

Attack - Roberts works hard but with too little result, Roque looks frustrated and the Hull game was his worst perf in a rovers shirt. Backup - McCarthy, booing is our right yet I'm not sure it helps, he needs to feel the love but he's yet to realise that comes with effort. Derbs - give him a chance.

Transfers - need i comment further?

I'm not suggesting we sack him but I would say he needs a reality slap and a quick guide to the premiership if we are to do anything more than (hopefully) survive this season.

I feel better now, until the next game at least.

[Iceman]

Again this should be our team. Robinson,Simpson,Ooijer,Zurab,Warnock,Gamst,Grella,Vogel,Dunn,Emerton,Santa Cruz. That wil allow Dunny to link up with Roque. It wil also allow Our defence a strong feel with 2 combative midfielders in Grella and Vogel. Both of those are also good on the ball, and can go forward. Much more solid line up me thinks.

[Neil Weaver]

Give Ince a chance, you bunch of hysterical ninnies!

I am the first one to recognise that Ince is showing naivity. Against Arsenal, under NO circumstances (unless you are Real Madrid or Barcelona) do you challenge them to their own game. Arsenal are arguably the best team in the world at end-to-end football. They'll give you opportunities but they will kill you with their lightning pace, movement and slick passing.

The way to play Arsenal is to field two holding midfielders, thus setting up a solid defensive platform for your wingers and forwards to attack from. Ince should not have let Warnock and Reid, in particular, go careering forward. It was suicide.

HOWEVER!!!! This is Arsenal. We always lose - even under Hughes. Souey did the double in the most fortuitous circumstances (Friedel magic).

I admire Ince's commitment to flowing football. He has not excelled in the transfer market, but do people seem to want to sack him for that! Why not let him manage, give him games to prove himself. You don't get awards for "sensational" transfer market dealings - otherwise Spurs would be perennial champions.

I am reading people demanding Ince to be sacked after defeat against Arsenal. Sheer idiocy. It wasn't Ince's finest moment but it was Arsenal. Give him a chance, shove your prejudices back where they belong and judge him objectively - fairly.

I for one will be happier when Ince starts playing Villanueva. I have read that Ince is aware of Hughes' exile treatment of Gamst when he first arrived. I fear that Ince is going in for that nonsense. And it is nonsense because no matter if you think a player is not muscular enough for the Prem, you don't crush his self-belief by denying him a minute of football for weeks and months.

Glad to see a bit of sanity returning today. Congratulations Mr 6, find myself agreeing with everything until your last paragraph (and with a lot of other posts in this thread today). On Friday Ince said

"We've got to have a go at them. Some teams try and sit back and try to soak up all the pressure, but you can't do that against Arsenal. They are too good a passing team to do that."

Naive (or tactically inept, if you prefer to look at it that way). You'd hope he'd take notice of some of the senior professionals here who have played Arsenal before but for whatever reason that doesn't seem to have happened. So Mr Ince, it's in your interests to listen to some of the folk at the club who've seen more of top flight footy than you. Like hasta, I'm still in the 'give him a fair crack of the whip' camp, but yesterday moved me more into the 'concerned' camp.

Just to comment on seemingly everyone crying out for Charlie Newton to play : Mr 6, you're regularly advocating introducing the youngsters slowly and I'd put Charlie in the same category. Be selective, and I don't think coming on at 2-0 down with 20 minutes left (with a decent prospect of conceding more) would have been the right time.

[mhead]

24 hours after and a bit of sanity IS returning.....tho some of the other threads are deeply depressing.

I am sure we had 3 or 4 players injured for yesterday's match. So Andrews had to play...that's why he was bought.It was a bit like Beattie as a CF against

(oh) Arsenal....and the score was? The ref would have sent one of our players off if we had got in their face. Now if we perform badly against Fulham that's a different matter.Barcodes away is an important litmus test. Points make massive differences to table position...add 1 point and we move up 6 places.

15 matches and we need 15 points. 3 wins plus 2 draws. Be patient and supporters...looking forward to Fulham.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Come on, If Hughes was in charge i'm 100% confident we'd of had a much better start. We wouldn't of Signed Fowler or Andrews, and i doubt Brad would of left, I'm sure Bents would of gone but i reckon MH would of replaced him well

There's no 'if' about it; it's a pointless comparison. It also conveniently ignores that in 3 of Hughes' 3.8 seasons, we occupied a spot in the bottom 3 in October - remember all the 'we come on strong in the 2nd half of the season' claims from the great man? He would have walked over his granny to get away from us.

The question should be is Ince doing better or worse than the other realistic candidates who would have come, ie.e Fat Sam or Brollyman? So far I think the answer is a shade under evens. I don't think we would have shipped 11 goals under BFS, but I don't think we would have won at Everton either.

[Manc Rover]

24 hours after and a bit of sanity IS returning.....tho some of the other threads are deeply depressing.

I am sure we had 3 or 4 players injured for yesterday's match. So Andrews had to play...that's why he was bought.It was a bit like Beattie as a CF against

(oh) Arsenal....and the score was? The ref would have sent one of our players off if we had got in their face. Now if we perform badly against Fulham that's a different matter.Barcodes away is an important litmus test. Points make massive differences to table position...add 1 point and we move up 6 places.

15 matches and we need 15 points. 3 wins plus 2 draws. Be patient and supporters...looking forward to Fulham.

15 points from 15 matches is relegation form. I'd like us to aim a little higher than that

[Amo]

WE HAVE FACED ONE TEAM IN TOP 4 AND LOST, BUT BEATEN A TEAM CONSISTANTLY IN THE TOP 5, SURELY YOU CAN JUDGE INCE ONCE WE HAVE FACED ALL THE TOP TEAMS NOT ONE?

We got a last-gasp victory against a depleted Everton side. It was a good result, but you shouldn't use it to pave over the cracks we've seen thereafter.

BENTLEY THREW A STROP AND WAS UNPROFESSIONAL, THIS WOULD HAVE UNDERMINED INCES CREDIBILITY IN THE EYES OF THE PLAYERS IF HE HAD STAYED, BARRY IS A PROFESSIONAL AND COMMITTED HIS FUTURE TO VILLA ONCE LIVERPOOL FAILED TO AGREE A FEE.

Bentley should have been told to put up or shut up. If he continued to whinge, it would have reflected badly on HIM not the club. Anyone with common sense knows you don't sell one of your best players unless you have a shortlist to replace him with. Unfortunately, it came down to a last-minute deal that fell through.

ANDREWS HAS BEEN GIVEN A CHANCE BY INCE, HE HAS COST US £500K, WOULD YOU RATHER THAT OR £4 MILLION ON CASTILLO WHO IS AN UNKNOWN (PLAYED DIRE FOR EVERTON TODAY BY THE WAY)

The only alternative to Andrews was Castillo? No. So don't make straw man arguments.

YOU SAID LOWER LEAGUE JOURNEYMEN, PLURAL. I THINK YOU WILL FIND FOWLER HAS SPENT ONE SEASON IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP AND IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE FOR EVERY OTHER SEASON- THIS IS NOT A JOURNEYMAN, HE MAY HAVE STRUGGLED WITH HIS FITNESS BUT HE HAS SCORED GOALS WHEREVER HE HAS GONE AND WE HAVE SIGNED HIM ON A PAY AS YOU PLAY FFS!!

Robbie Fowler is a journeyman. He was playing in the lower league, therefore he's a lower league journeyman. Not the same as Andrews, but still hardly an inspired signing to strengthen a top-7 side.

DRAW AT HOME AGAINST HULL (WHO BEAT NEWCASTLE AWAY YESTERDAY)

You mean the same underachieving Newcastle who are in disarray right now? 'kay.

GOT BEATED 4-1 AGAINST WEST HAM

Got beated? You sound like a five year old.

(BUT LOST EVERY TIME WE WENT THERE WITH HUGHES)

So...? Let's just ask the Premiership if we can surrender our fixtures against West Ham in future then.

AND THEN GOT BEATEN BY A WORLD CLASS OUTFIT LIKE ARSENAL

The question is WHY?

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Got beaten by Arsenal -

The question is WHY?

I think that is quite straightforward. A team built over a number of season - that spends more on a youngster to go in their reserves than we do on our whole first team. They also have one of the best managers - who has had years to build his current team - not 4 matches.

[Amo]

We lost to Arsenal because we weren't organized tactically. Now had we really given it a go, kept it tight at the back and harried them, but still got whooped one could say it was a matter of class.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

We lost to Arsenal because we weren't organized tactically. Now had we really given it a go, kept it tight at the back and harried them, but still got whooped one could say it was a matter of class.

It is always an interesting one for me - when is it tactics - or when is it that we were just beaten by a better team ?

When you have players that can go past other players, pass the ball around with ease - it can be easy to make even the best teams look like they aren't set up correctly tactically.

Personally I feel Ince was too brave - and probably played too attacking. The reality is - most of the time it actually makes little difference - as has been seen by our poor record against Arsenal home and away for the last few seasons.

[imy9]

We got a last-gasp victory against a depleted Everton side. It was a good result, but you shouldn't use it to pave over the cracks we've seen thereafter.

NICE TO SEE YOU CAN MANIPULATE FACTS TO SUIT YOUR ARGUMENT, FACT REMAINS THAT THE EVERTON FIRST 11 WAS NEARLY THEIR STRONGEST (WE WERE MISSING A FEW TOO) AND WE PLAYED BETTER FOOTBALL THAN ANY SEEN UNDER HUGHES LAST YEAR (YOU KEEP GLOSSING OVER THAT POINT)

Bentley should have been told to put up or shut up. If he continued to whinge, it would have reflected badly on HIM not the club. Anyone with common sense knows you don't sell one of your best players unless you have a shortlist to replace him with. Unfortunately, it came down to a last-minute deal that fell through.

THAT IS NAIVE THINKING (HOW OLD ARE YOU BY THE WAY?), WHEN A £15 MILLION POUND PLAYER SOUNDS OFF AGAINST THE MANAGER, THE MANAGER MUST MAKE A STAND. WE HAD A SHORTLIST BUT DO YOU WASTE THE MONEY ON INFERIOR PLAYERS OR WAIT UNTIL THE RIGHT PLAYER COMES ALONG?

The only alternative to Andrews was Castillo? No. So don't make straw man arguments.

CASTILLO WAS A PLAYER WE WERE ABOUT TO SIGN, WE DID NOT AND SIGNED ANDREWS INSTEAD- AS INCE HAS WORKED WITH HIM AND WAS SEEN AS AN EXCELLENT SHORT TERM OPTION (MUCH LIKE YOURI D), WHICH OTHER PLAYERS WERE WE CLOSE TO SIGNING?

Robbie Fowler is a journeyman. He was playing in the lower league, therefore he's a lower league journeyman. Not the same as Andrews, but still hardly an inspired signing to strengthen a top-7 side.

FOWLER PLAYING ONE SEASON IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP DOES NOT MAKE HIM A JOURNEYMAN-YOU SEEM A LIKE A GOOGLE BOY, WHY DO YOU NOT CHECK IT ON THERE. HE HAS SIGNED ON A 3 MONTH DEAL- DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU? A PAY AS YOU PLAY FOR ONE OF THE GREATEST STRIKERS SEEN IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE SOUNDS LIKE A WINNING DEAL FOR BOTH PARTIES.

You mean the same underachieving Newcastle who are in disarray right now? 'kay.

HULL BEAT THEM, YES? THEY HAVE HOW MANY POINTS IN THE LEAGUE? WE DREW AGAINST THEM, WE DID NOT LOSE.

Got beated? You sound like a five year old.

SORRY I HIT D INSTEAD OF N, I CAN SEE HOW THIS IS THE SAME AS YOU BEING REFERRED TO AS U

So...? Let's just ask the Premiership if we can surrender our fixtures against West Ham in future then.

THAT IS A STUPID THING TO SAY, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME SPURS BEAT CHELSEA IN THE LEAGUE? SOME TEAMS ARE CLASSED AS BOGEY TEAMS FOR CERTAIN SIDES, WEST HAM AWAY IS ONE OF THOSE GAMES.

The question is WHY?

MMM ARSENAL ARE A WORLD CLASS SIDE WHO PASS THE BALL BETTER THAN ANY SIDE IN THE WORLD AND WE MATCHED THEM FOR 44 MINUTES IN THE FIRST HALF (DID YOU SEE THE GAME?)

[LeChuck]

Anyone who thinks it would be any different with Hughes here is just plain barking.

If you think Hughes would have been as inept as Ince in the transfer market then you are also barking. We never would have started with Andrews and Reid in the middle under Hughes, that duo would struggle to get in to another team in the Premiership. I also believe Hughes would have replaced Bentley, because he showed countless times that he was excellent at replacing players when they left.

[imy9]

If you think Hughes would have been as inept as Ince in the transfer market then you are also barking. We never would have started with Andrews and Reid in the middle under Hughes, that duo would struggle to get in to another team in the Premiership. I also believe Hughes would have replaced Bentley, because he showed countless times that he was excellent at replacing players when they left.

Right then can you name Hughes' first two signings as manager of Rovers?

Youri D and The Axe, inept?

Hughes started with Reid in the middle countless times, in fact he started with Reid at right back!! I seem to recall Bruno Berner being prefered to Olsson at left back too.

Hughes would have replaced Bentley because he had a scouting network in place for THREE years not a MONTH!!

Point I will go back to is that Ince's signings have not been given to prove how good/bad they are. Ooijer looked a complete shambles in his first 6 games but then he flourished.

[John]

Rovers skipper Ryan Nelsen said: 'We're trying to play attractive football. The performances have been good but we're giving away some horrendously soft goals. It's about finding the right balance at the moment.'

[Gamst]

Right then can you name Hughes' first two signings as manager of Rovers?

Youri D and The Axe, inept?

Hughes started with Reid in the middle countless times, in fact he started with Reid at right back!! I seem to recall Bruno Berner being prefered to Olsson at left back too.

Hughes would have replaced Bentley because he had a scouting network in place for THREE years not a MONTH!!

Point I will go back to is that Ince's signings have not been given to prove how good/bad they are. Ooijer looked a complete shambles in his first 6 games but then he flourished.

I think we have got our moneys worth for the Axe. He has probably been a good signing despite his lack of ability. He was a particularly astute signing as he filled the defensive mf role exellently in Hughesy's first season. He played a big part in keeping us up! Youri was a bit like a Fowler situation I suppose.

I really dont understand how Ince didnt manage to replace Bentley?! Do you really think it is necessary to have an extensive and established scouting network to one top quality player. I tend to think a good scouting network is useful for identifying young or bargain signings. All Ince has to do is watch MOTD or eurogoals to see some talent. One doesnt need to be a football expert to name a few right wingers for under £10million. I really find the clubs excuse of 'lack of time' laughable.

I agree that the signings Ince has made need to be given a chance to prove themselves, but they are not the quality of players that most fans would have wanted. It is tough coming into a club and finding that two of the best players want out and I dont blame Ince for this. In some respects it is better that Ince hasnt spent bucket loads on randomers, but it is only natural to be dissapointed with messrs Andrews and Fowler. You can say they are low risk options and this is true, but I just want to see some ambition!

[dingles staying down 4ever]

At the end of the day, Hughes would have sent out a team to frustrate and defend as he always did against Arsenal but not to football and we still ended getting beat. BORING.

Ince tried to play football against Arsenal and Rovers gets hammered. Naive/stupid are two words that can be applied but for a football fan it was entertaining.

That is two games in a row that we have conceded goals late in a game. It is no good saying we are chasing a game, these goals could be very costly come the end of the season and goal difference comes into play. Defensively we are poor and the lack of pace was again obvious to all.

It is no good slagging Andrews off he was by no ways the worst player on the pitch. The game showed up frailties in the games of Samba/Reid/ Nelson and Roberts but they were all hughes' signings. These are not new problems. It is how Ince deals with the back bone of the team that is going define him. Against Villa last season we conceded four at home and for me that performance was worse.

The jury is still out on Ince, it si what lessons he has learnt from Saturday and how he applies them which is going to define his career

[Iceman]

We got beaten, by a very good team, with an astute manager in Wenger who has been with Arsenal for years. However, its the manner in which the defeated us that worries me. 2 defensive errors, a penalty that should not have been given and i think the 4th goal was offside. We had enough chances, to make something of the game. Ince should have made changes at half time, and not with 20mins left. In fact he should have removed Reid after 20 mins of the 1st half. The guy is useless, and completely pisses me off, because he clearly is more of a ballerina than a footballer.

[DingleBaiter]

Right then can you name Hughes' first two signings as manager of Rovers?

Youri D and The Axe, inept?

Can you? Clearly not, if my memory is correct (no guarantees these days, sadly). Wasn't it Nelsen, Axe THEN Youri (who was only really one step away from retirement/Qatar (interchangeable) sometime later.

Of all the tittle tattle on the previous pages, I'm impressed someone's quoting 'straw men' arguments. Problem is, requesting people don't use them on boards like this is like asking a Newcastle fan to admit Keegan is a tactically inept manager with a propensity for hissy fits.

[CrazyIvan]

Compare this http://www.fansfc.com/frontpage/frontpagen...p?newsid=190308

to this http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ted/7614783.stm

Which one do you believe?

[ABBEY]

At the end of the day, Hughes would have sent out a team to frustrate and defend as he always did against Arsenal but not to football and we still ended getting beat. BORING.

Ince tried to play football against Arsenal and Rovers gets hammered. Naive/stupid are two words that can be applied but for a football fan it was entertaining.

That is two games in a row that we have conceded goals late in a game. It is no good saying we are chasing a game, these goals could be very costly come the end of the season and goal difference comes into play. Defensively we are poor and the lack of pace was again obvious to all.

It is no good slagging Andrews off he was by no ways the worst player on the pitch. The game showed up frailties in the games of Samba/Reid/ Nelson and Roberts but they were all hughes' signings. These are not new problems. It is how Ince deals with the back bone of the team that is going define him. Against Villa last season we conceded four at home and for me that performance was worse.

The jury is still out on Ince, it si what lessons he has learnt from Saturday and how he applies them which is going to define his career

tried to play ? we should have tried tackling in the midfield.....we needed a sav,bats ,flits ,sherwood,atko etc.

[den]

tried to play ? we should have tried tackling in the midfield.....we needed a sav,bats ,flits ,sherwood,atko etc.

Correct Abbey, you really can't stand off Arsenal. Looks like only it's Ince didn't realise that.

Kamy made a point earlier and the guy sitting next to one from me said the same thing - there was no game plan. It appeared to me, as though we approached the Arsenal game in exactly the same way as the Grimsby game.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Results will improve, says Ince

[LDRover]

Results will improve, says Ince

"And when you're playing one of the best teams in the land it's no good when you don't see them for two weeks."

So I take it there were no Arsenal players on international duty then?

That's a bloody lame excuse...and one he's used twice already this season.