[Archived] Off Side

[Majiball]

Just to add to the poster above, I noticed against Grimsby, Breda and Hull we are catching people offside a lot, lot more nowadays. The only problem is when someone gets through they tend to score, but we have improved a huge deal without our "playing offside" play.

Personally, playing the offside game is a very dangerous tactic in my book unless all your defenders are on the same wavelength - which ours are definitely not.

Think there was an element of this in the Hull and Wet Spam game.

It's a very negative and boring tactic too. I hate it in opposition teams so I can't endorse it for Rovers.

The kind of telepathy you are talking about will never come in a couple of months, time and patience are required.

Why is it negative?

If you get it working with success we always gain a free kick, instant possession, is that not a good thing? One thing Rovers really lack at the back is pace Samba is not that quick. So how else do we counter it, do we sit deep creating a huge gulf between our defence and Midfield. This in turn means our full backs have more ground to cover when supporting the wingers. Sitting deeper will also allow quick strikers to run at our defence. And on top would create huge space for the opposition to exploit.

GG's back four where hardly blessed with pace a bit like ours aren't and even in todays game they where second to none especially even when they where all late 30's. If you can get it working its a potent weapon.

I've been on about this since I first came on here I want to see a sitter just in front of Samba and Nelsen we need one. We are prone to making some rash decisions at the back they need help and protection.

Because it breaks up play like an over fussy referee giving masses of free kicks. It spoils the game as a spectacle for the spectators. The rule was introduced to stop forwards from sitting on the baby line and having the ball pumped forward to them, however in the modern game it is used as a deliberate spoiling tactic and it stops the natural flow of the game.

I appreciate that everybody does it and you miss out if you dont but I hate it.

I have long said that the half way line is the wrong place to enforce it from. There should be another line, further up the pitch, probably the edge of the penalty area, only behond which you could be offside. That might discourage defences from using it as a spoiling tactic and the forward caught offside would only have himself to blame.

Just my personal thoughts.

Is it worth a topic of it's own for discussion? Might be interesting to hear other poster's views.

I think the edge of the penalty area might be too far back. The amount of teams who drop further and further back when defending a 1 - 0 lead against a 'better' club would just sit on that line and defend. That would make for boring football.

Fair enough if that's what you think.

Trouble is its part of the game, so we should exploit it. Can I also ask are you against tactical fouls?

Breaking up the oppositions attacking rhythm is great from my point of view, they never get going and frustration sets in. They will also start to play more in front of our back four and this is much easier to defend against.

The idea of having another line is fair enough but you give another headache to the defence watch the ball, watch the player, watch for the line, watch your team mates. Its hard enough defending as it is, you need more than two eyes at present.

I would argue that it is a art form in football four players working seamlessly as one unit, one entity. It may take away from the excitement or flow of the game as you have said but what would happen with out it.

In youth football U8's or so they now play small sided games with no offside to encourage skills. Now in these games there is always the one player who just stands out side the box waiting, he will never be off side and all you need to be able to do is hit him when you get possession. There are lots of goals scored thats the point of it, is it exciting I suppose, is it good to watch no I don't like hit and hope. Does it require less skill yes.

The same would happen if the line was moved back, our defence would rarely cross the line especially if the opposition tell there point man to just stay there, welcome to the long ball game. The space between the defence and midfield would be massive again more long balls. Defending half a pitch is hard enough let alone almost all of it.

Imagine this we have the ball in the oppositions box, we have all pushed up. There striker stays on our off-side line and we leave a centre back with him. Our attack breaks down there keeper hoofs it up field they get possession and score. Is that more exciting, I would say no. It would encourage a return to hit and hope football, the skill factor involved in that style is not very high.

Its food for thought.

I appreciate your point of view but I'll place a small bet that when you play/played football you were a defender. I am in favour of open attacking football with as few breaks to open play as possible. There has to be an offside rule but I think that the current one unfairly favours defenders. The separate line is the only one I can think of. Maybe further back than the penalty area.

I also believe that the current rule is far too complicated. If you are offside you are offside. As the great Brian Clough once said 'If one of my players is not interfering with play I want to see him in my office first thing in the morning'.

Anyway I am diverting this topic. If we need to continue this discussion we need another thread.

[Al]

I would appreciate your input on this topic.

[LeChuck]

Bad.

It's outdated, the attacking players nowadays are too fast to play such a risky game. Most of them don't even need to play on the shoulder of the defenders, they can give themselves half a yard of comfort zone and still get to the ball first.

Plus, it's kind of playing to Samba's and Warnock's weaknesses, because they let themselves down positionally at times. I think we'll make quite a lot of costly mistakes if we persevere with it...probably more goals like Bellamy's at the weekend.

[Martin]

It's good from an attacking sense. It squeezes the play up and puts us on the front foot. Against lesser teams it is needed.

Better teams will make us look silly. We don't have the pace to recover.

To play the offside consistently we need a consistent back four. Something we haven't had for a while. Plus I'm not sure Samba is capable of concentrating or 90 minutes.

In summary it's not something I like us to use every week, but it's a useful skill to have in our arsenal!

[67splitscreen]

QUOTE (Al @ Sep 4 2008, 15:47 )

I also believe that the current rule is far too complicated. If you are offside you are offside. As the great Brian Clough once said 'If one of my players is not interfering with play I want to see him in my office first thing in the morning'. :lol:

Has to be one of the greatest quotes ever, there was so many crackers to choose from though. What a bloke

[Majiball]

I appreciate your point of view but I'll place a small bet that when you play/played football you were a defender. I am in favour of open attacking football with as few breaks to open play as possible. There has to be an offside rule but I think that the current one unfairly favours defenders. The separate line is the only one I can think of. Maybe further back than the penalty area.

I also believe that the current rule is far too complicated. If you are offside you are offside. As the great Brian Clough once said 'If one of my players is not interfering with play I want to see him in my office first thing in the morning'.

Anyway I am diverting this topic. If we need to continue this discussion we need another thread.

I'll take that bet, I was a Winger right sided funnily enough.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for attacking football.

How do you feel it benefits defenders, since the rule change I would have said the opposite.

The current rule is an odd one dreamed up by office jockey's who have never even kicked a ball in anger. I completely agree if your on the pitch your are interfering most coaches would say the same. It is getting more complicated and will continue to do so until we see footballing people running our game.

I would like to see linesman given help though by having the 4th offical use a laptop to view a replay and agree disagree with the bigger decisions IE. derb's goal at west ham. I think the rule would be better apprieciatted if it was better policed. The FA and UEFA say you can't do it at all levels so will not employ it. I say there is no other level in football where one place is worth 720K, relegation worth 40M or so. By the time the players have stopped protesting the 4th offical will have the right answer.

[67splitscreen]

Scrap the O/S rule all together, go back to baby lining, give RF a contract :lol:

[Al]

I'll take that bet, I was a Winger right sided funnily enough.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for attacking football.

How do you feel it benefits defenders, since the rule change I would have said the opposite.

The current rule is an odd one dreamed up by office jockey's who have never even kicked a ball in anger. I completely agree if your on the pitch your are interfering most coaches would say the same. It is getting more complicated and will continue to do so until we see footballing people running our game.

I would like to see linesman given help though by having the 4th offical use a laptop to view a replay and agree disagree with the bigger decisions IE. derb's goal at west ham. I think the rule would be better apprieciatted if it was better policed. The FA and UEFA say you can't do it at all levels so will not employ it. I say there is no other level in football where one place is worth 720K, relegation worth 40M or so. By the time the players have stopped protesting the 4th offical will have the right answer.

OK I lose.

I think it favours defenders because it gives thm an opportunity to stop an attack without a tackle. The rest of your post I couldn't agree with more.

[CrazyIvan]

I would like to see linesman given help though by having the 4th offical use a laptop to view a replay and agree disagree with the bigger decisions IE. derb's goal at west ham. I think the rule would be better apprieciatted if it was better policed. The FA and UEFA say you can't do it at all levels so will not employ it. I say there is no other level in football where one place is worth 720K, relegation worth 40M or so. By the time the players have stopped protesting the 4th offical will have the right answer.

The software is there to be able to track players every move and I'm sure could be linked up to flag an offside automatically. It would require some tweaking and clearly defined meanings of the words active and inactive. Would anybody object to an automatic flag rather than a subjective human trying to apply an overly complex and ill-defined rule? Thoughts?

[Ronin]

May as well do what they do in NHL etc and have an offside line marked onto the pitch.

[67splitscreen]

OK I lose.

I think it favours defenders because it gives thm an opportunity to stop an attack without a tackle. The rest of your post I couldn't agree with more.

Agree with the 4th official, it has been said before, if the likes of Sky can replay it in seconds, then the technology is there for all. The argument against that is, say Accy Stanley if no Cameras are there, or even lower conference league. It has to be one rule for all. So the law has to be simplified.

The software is there to be able to track players every move and I'm sure could be linked up to flag an offside automatically. It would require some tweaking and clearly defined meanings of the words active and inactive. Would anybody object to an automatic flag rather than a subjective human trying to apply an overly complex and ill-defined rule? Thoughts?

Micro chip the lot of um.

They use electronic linesmen of sorts in France at the roadworks, so why not.

[CAPT KAYOS]

QUOTE (Majiball @ Sep 4 2008, 11:11 )

The kind of telepathy you are talking about will never come in a couple of months, time and patience are required.

The thing is the defence has been playing together on and off but long enough to get some form of understanding and still can't manage that without the offside tactic.

As has been mentioned you do need a backline playing together for a while - but IMO does not work with an holding midfielder (which I also don't like).

And yes its terrible to see in a game and not spectator friendly.

[67splitscreen]

The thing is the defence has been playing together on and off but long enough to get some form of understanding and still can't manage that without the offside tactic.

As has been mentioned you do need a backline playing together for a while - but IMO does not work with an holding midfielder (which I also don't like).

And yes its terrible to see in a game and not spectator friendly.

Thought it worked well with Senna, for Spain, and was good to watch. Different kettle of fish though.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Thought it worked well with Senna, for Spain, and was good to watch. Different kettle of fish though.

So its a success then and does work (for one team)

As you say it will probably work for more than just the Spanish elite - much the same as one up front will (another thing I hate btw) but it has to have the right players to play it and again is not very spectator friendly IMO.

442 for me - the simple and better way to play, understand and watch

[Majiball]

May as well do what they do in NHL etc and have an offside line marked onto the pitch.

We do its called the half way line

Agree with the 4th official, it has been said before, if the likes of Sky can replay it in seconds, then the technology is there for all. The argument against that is, say Accy Stanley if no Cameras are there, or even lower conference league. It has to be one rule for all. So the law has to be simplified.

Keep the lino he has other uses than just offside just give them some bloody help. Fair point on Accy and yes thats what the FA hide behind as well. But millions of pounds are not at stake.

The FA send there best ref's to the prem and the lesser one to the lower leagues, so the best ref's or shall we call them decision makers go to the prem and the lesser desicion makers the lower leagues. Is that any different really? If the FA truly believed that it should be the same at all levels then why do I not see Mike Riley refing at Exeter or Bath or even tranmere. Simple its rubbish.

I would love to know the real reason no footballing body allows or advocates technology when almost every other sport does?

The thing is the defence has been playing together on and off but long enough to get some form of understanding and still can't manage that without the offside tactic.

As has been mentioned you do need a backline playing together for a while - but IMO does not work with an holding midfielder (which I also don't like).

And yes its terrible to see in a game and not spectator friendly.

But not that long with Winterburn only two months, I'm not talking about knowing each others game but playing the offside rule as a unit. I would advocate that in todays game you have to have a sitter, especially if you want your full backs too push on. Oh and I think the Italians not spain are great examples of both of these.

When you say its not good to watch, what would you change? would you do away with it altogether? or something else?

[Billy Castell]

I wouldn't care a jot about it being attractive if we used those tactics and beat Man Utd 2-0, and Rooney got sent off after telling the linesman to eff off.

[CAPT KAYOS]

When you say its not good to watch, what would you change? would you do away with it altogether? or something else?

No wouldn't do away with it at all - but just make it the simple black and white (daylight) that everybody sees it as -not the interfering malarkey / pigs ear rubbish.

not really into the technology aspect either - only thing I might change would be to have 4 linesmen

The game is being made too complicated instead of keeping it simple.

You shouldn't have players having to think about whether a player is onside/offside or interfering.

[Wild Irish Rover]

The software is there to be able to track players every move and I'm sure could be linked up to flag an offside automatically. It would require some tweaking and clearly defined meanings of the words active and inactive. Would anybody object to an automatic flag rather than a subjective human trying to apply an overly complex and ill-defined rule? Thoughts?

Wouldn't work down at Pleasington on a wet sunday morning

Let's keep the game human and interesting. The computer based alternatives are as dull as ditchwater and for anoraks only (IMO).

The Off-Side law is complicated and represents an intellectual and operational challenge for everyone concerned. As a referee I am all for reducing the potential for ambiguity and conflict within the game, but I don't think that software and automation is really the answer. Not sure what else might be though. Good thread.

C'mon Rovers!

[Majiball]

Wouldn't work down at Pleasington on a wet sunday morning

Let's keep the game human and interesting. The computer based alternatives are as dull as ditchwater and for anoraks only (IMO).

The Off-Side law is complicated and represents an intellectual and operational challenge for everyone concerned. As a referee I am all for reducing the potential for ambiguity and conflict within the game, but I don't think that software and automation is really the answer. Not sure what else might be though. Good thread.

C'mon Rovers!

So as a Ref you don't want replay's to help you make the right choice?

I would never go as far as full automation but the 4th official having a screen for crucial decisions (goals) surely only helps. It would take seconds as it does on TV, so hardly anytime would be lost. I have a lot of respect for Referee's and Linesman, but have always felt its a difficult job. It works in cricket, tennis, Rugby and so on, why not use it in football. It was the Chelsea Liverpool CL semi that really got me on this boat it never looked like a goal but it was given, and a CL final place was at stake. WH Rovers, if derb's goal was given as shown it should have been then its a different game at 2-2.

I know it can't be done at all levels but in the same breath, there are camera's at every league game it would not be that hard to set-up. The further down the pyramid you go the lower the rating of the Ref until at some stage I think county you get club rep's as linesman. So it not the same at all levels as it stands.

[CAPT KAYOS]

So as a Ref you don't want replay's to help you make the right choice?

I would never go as far as full automation but the 4th official having a screen for crucial decisions (goals) surely only helps. It would take seconds as it does on TV, so hardly anytime would be lost. I have a lot of respect for Referee's and Linesman, but have always felt its a difficult job. It works in cricket, tennis, Rugby and so on, why not use it in football. It was the Chelsea Liverpool CL semi that really got me on this boat it never looked like a goal but it was given, and a CL final place was at stake. WH Rovers, if derb's goal was given as shown it should have been then its a different game at 2-2.

I know it can't be done at all levels but in the same breath, there are camera's at every league game it would not be that hard to set-up. The further down the pyramid you go the lower the rating of the Ref until at some stage I think county you get club rep's as linesman. So it not the same at all levels as it stands.

Goal's and penalties to me is probably the limit if needed and maybe for player discipline but nothing else.

As for referees - doesn't mean to say they are worse than the ones in the P/L just because they ref lower down the leagues.

With WIR on this and would prefer for it to me kept as human and uncomplicated as possible.

[Majiball]

As for referees - doesn't mean to say they are worse than the ones in the P/L just because they ref lower down the leagues.

Ref's are all graded. there are some good ones but in the same breath I've watched mates play County level and some are very poor. I helped a mate out once and played for his team, a opposition player tried to tackle me. After I got up to no free kick I spoke to the ref and showed him the stud marks on my thigh, his response its a contact sport get used to it at this level. WTF that tackle could have broken my leg if it was planted.

Ref's grading

Its a bit like saying a level one coach could be as good as say an A-licence coach.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Ref's are all graded. there are some good ones but in the same breath I've watched mates play County level and some are very poor. I helped a mate out once and played for his team, a opposition player tried to tackle me. After I got up to no free kick I spoke to the ref and showed him the stud marks on my thigh, his response its a contact sport get used to it at this level. WTF that tackle could have broken my leg if it was planted.

Ref's grading

Its a bit like saying a level one coach could be as good as say an A-licence coach.

How bad was the tackle - did the referee see it?

Your point doesn't prove anything, at the end of the day it is a contact sport and you do get stud marks either intentional or not.

Yes there are good and bad refs but the adaptation of the laws that is doctored to them is very in balanced and confusing with common sense now driven from their remit.

And I thought we where on about the offside law anyway, not how good or bad a ref is, as what we all see now they all make a pigs ear of the 'PIG' anyway

[Majiball]

OK go and watch it then come back.

and yes back to offside.

[CAPT KAYOS]

OK go and watch it then come back.

Have I missed something ... but what do I need to watch?