[Archived] Formula 1

[American]

The thing this shows about F1 is that we shouldn't be celebrating the driver, we should be celebrating the engineers. A driver can lose a championship, but it is a rare driver who truly wins one.

[AlanK]

Care to elaborate American?

Yes Button has a good car. However, he has won 5 races. His team mate has won none. The cream always rises to the top.

Prost,Senna,Mansell,Hakkinen,Schumacher,Alonso,Raikonen,Hamilton. Button....?

[American]

And they both use the same exact crew? Explain how Button couldn't win without a good car and how Hamilton has gone from champ to chump.

And I know there is no proof of it this season, but since when do the teams treat the drivers equally?

[DanLad]

The real cream of the crop is clearly Ross Brawn.

Button is now having the same 'luck, that Schumacher used to.

The chap is a genius!

[Ninjathunder]

It was a fantastic drive from him on Sunday. Yes he's obviously in the best car but he's proved all season that he's got the better of Barrichello and that's without team orders, which Schumacher insisted on. The whole story of the team has been a joy to behold and had capped what, for me, has been one of the most exciting F1 seasons I can remember.

[pg]

The thing this shows about F1 is that we shouldn't be celebrating the driver, we should be celebrating the engineers. A driver can lose a championship, but it is a rare driver who truly wins one.

You're right.

The last driver to win a championship in a clearly inferior car war Alain Prost in 1986. The best car that year was the Williams Honda of Piquet and Mansell.

Although Schuey won the 1994 championship in a Benetton against the superior Williams-Renault of Hill, Schuey (and Brawn!) were cheating that year and were found to have illegal fuel filling equipment and launch-control electronics on their car.

Alonso had the best car for half of 2006 but when the FIA removed his mass-damper he was clearly 2nd best behind the Ferraris.

Good drivers (Schuey, Alonso, Prost, Senna, Hamilton etc) can win the odd race in an inferior car, but you can't win a championship in one.

There is a reason why Red Bull pay Adrian Newey 10 million a year, and there is a reason why Honda allowed Brawn to become team principal. There are plenty of good handy peddlers in the F1 driving ranks..but there are few engineers who fundamentally grasp the sciences behind aerodynamics, vehicle dynamics and race-car performance.

[Tango]

I think that's a bit harsh pg and American - there's no doubt that engineers make winning racing cars, but it's only brilliant drivers who can take their engineering to the limit. Hence the reason there are two drivers per team, one can "push the envelope" further than the other to "prove" the car - just look at Piquet and Alonso, Rosberg over Nakajima etc.

The reason this whole debate has surfaced centres on the emergence of Brawn GP. Now, the engineering team have no doubt done a brilliant job in building the car, but you can't do that without drivers giving you the "feel" for how it drives. To say that championships are won by engineers alone is sheer lunacy.

Button is getting the most out of the Brawn package (which is the best in the field, don't get me wrong), but that's the mark of a world class driver, that you hammer home the advantage when you have it. Take nothing away from the guy, he's up there with the best. I hope he wins it this season, he'll have done it on merit and, on that most British of of things: spirit.

[pg]

Tango - look at the facts. No-one has won a championship in an inferior car in decades. You have to have a car at least the equal of your competitors if you want to win a championship.

Alonso won two championships with Renault in 2005/06. Now he is nowhere in a Renault...why? Because the aerodynamicists who helped design his previous cars all left to go to McLaren/BMW.

Button is a great driver when he has a car that suits his smooth style..he's always been fast. But he's been finishing at the back of the field for the past two seaons...because his car was rubbish. Honda lost Willem Toet in 2006 (to BMW), followed by Simon Lacy (to McLaren) and Geoff Willis (to Red Bull). Their 2007 and 2008 cars were dogs because they lost top engineering talent.

Only by recruiting well in Loic Bigois (ex-Williams), Jorg Zander (ex-BMW) and Ross Brawn (ex-Ferrari) has Button been able to win a race.

[American]

I think it boils down to this - you have to have talent enough to win, but the vast majority that get a regular F1 ride have that level of talent.

[AlanK]

I would say half of them do. Some of them are constantly shown up by their team mates.

Alonso-Piquet is embarrasing

Lewis-Heiki is almost as bad

Button 5 wins-Rubens none...both in the Brawn!?!

As PG says, you need the right package. Button has been patient and driven a bag of bolts for 2 years. given the opportunity he has grabbed it and is now a big time player.

[pg]

I would say half of them do. Some of them are constantly shown up by their team mates.

Alonso-Piquet is embarrasing

Lewis-Heiki is almost as bad

Button 5 wins-Rubens none...both in the Brawn!?!

As PG says, you need the right package. Button has been patient and driven a bag of bolts for 2 years. given the opportunity he has grabbed it and is now a big time player.

The problem with team-mate comparisons is that its not always a fair fight. The car will have certain characteristics that will perhaps favour one driver, or one driver may be able to adapt to them more successfully than the other.

A good example was Rosberg v Prost in 1986. Rosberg had the reputation for being the fastest driver in the field before Alain Prost blew him away in 1986. Most of Rosberg's issues were due to his arguments with John Barnard about how to set the car up. John Watson, Niki Lauda and Alain Prost had very similar preferences for car behaviour/set-up...and they all saw eye-to-eye with how John Barnard wanted his cars to be driven. Rosberg was compeletely different. He wanted a much stiffer front-end and more front downforce. Barnard said 'you can't do that on my car, you'll just oversteer and spin out into the fence.'

Heikki drove very well in the 2nd half of 2007 (his rookie season) but he has been thoroughly disappointing at McLaren.

Rubers has often out-driven Button, especially when the car has been worse. This year, Button is able to get the Brawn to react better to his wishes.

IMO a great driver is able to drive all sorts of cars created by different designers. E.g. Prost drove turbo, non-turbo, ground-effects, active suspension, ... the whole shebang. His designers included Gerard Doucarage, John Barnard, Steve Nichols, Gordon Murray and Adrian Newey..and he was fast in all of them.

Likewise Alonso went from being fast in the 2006 Renault on Michelin tyres with a very rearwards weight/aero distribution to being fast in the 2007 McLaren on Bridgestone with a more neutral weight distrubution. The time it took Alonso to adjust was the time when Hamilton was beating him...as Lewis didn't have to adjust his driving technique.

Schuey was lucky that every single one of his race wins (except for three) were in cars designed by Rory Byrne.

What separates Button IMO from being a 'great' as opposed to being 'good' is that he seems to struggle in a car that doesn't suit his wishes..i.e. he doesn't seem that adaptable behind the wheel, which is why the pace difference between him and Rubens has yo-yoed throughout the years.

[AlanK]

I agree with what you say PG but its the exception rather than the rule. Lewis and Fernando blew the same team mates away last year in different spec cars, they are doing it again this year and if the specs changed next year they would still do it. Some of them are F1 drivers, some of them are potential F1 champions. Its only when you get two potential champs in the same car you get the real fireworks eg Mansell-Piquet, Senna-Prost,Hamilton-Alonso.Rarely happens unfortunately.

[AlanK]

Should be a good race today between Button and Vettel.

The team entries for 2010 are announced on Friday. Expect fireworks.

[benhben]

Flawless drive from button. Highlights his composure next to his team mate who went from 3rd to 17th then retired. Poor Rubens. Vettel is miffed at his red bull strategy.

[AlanK]

Button has a great car but make no mistake, these are flawless drives from him at the moment. If any driver can win in the Brawn as has been suggested here, there and everywhere then why has 1 driver won 6 out of 7 and the other driver won 0?

Kimi is a spent force and is just turning up for his pay cheque. Waste of a Ferrai seat. Alonso should be there next year.

I think Lewis is resigned to the fact he has a similar pile of junk to what Button had to drive in the previous 2 seasons.

Red Bull are the closest to the Brawn team in terms of performance but Brawn are on another planet.

Silverstone 2 weeks today. I head to the camp site a week Tuesday. Can`t wait.

[American]

So, suddenly Button has become a great driver? He finished 4 spots behind Barrichello last season. The drivers didn't change, just the car set up.

I'm not saying the driver has nothing to do with the success, but if any of the top 10-15 drivers get the setup they like, they can win. This season Button has gotten that setup.

[Hughesy]

Correct American - give them all the exact same motor - then its fair!

[benhben]

I disagree. I have said Button was a class act all along. I hoped He would get a drive at Mcclaren but they got hamilton instead.

Buttons smooth driving style, his awareness of tyre and engine conservation and consistency is class. I think if you put hamilton and button in the same car it would be extremely tight, but with the likes of Massa and Hamilton more prone to mistakes I think Button would still edge it at the end of a season. I also think if Button had Massa's car last season Hamilton wouldnt have got the world title, due to Buttons consistency and pace.

You cant really compare one driver to his team mate. They all have different styles and preferences, one of which the car may suit/unsuit. The Brawn might excell with buttons smooth style, but be slower with a more aggressive approach like a Hamilton or Barichello

[Billy Castell]

I think Jenson was a bit overhyped when he came in, then didn't really get his head in the right order to be a champion. He was also hampered by having a crap car for years. Now he has a brilliant car, it seems he's finally pulled himself together and focused on the job at hand. Lewis is a born racer, he wants to thrash the car about, overtake anyone in his way and push things to the limit, which makes him far more exciting to watch, but leads to a few more mistakes, and isn't easy on the car. Jenson, perhaps because he's more experienced and has been in crap cars for a while, manages his tyres, engine etc. better and has a smoother style.

In time, Lewis will learn to be a bit smoother and easier on his car, and this awful season will make him stronger, and may help him win more titles over his career. I'd love to see both of them in a top team together, but I doubt that would happen. I also think Jenson should drive the next race in reverse gear to give the others a chance.

[AlanK]

Correct American - give them all the exact same motor - then its fair!

Fair maybe, F1 certainly not. You have A1 for that.

If its just the car then how come Rubens has not won a race? Don`t give me set up. If you can`t set that car up to win you should not be racing. Button has dropped 4 points all season.

Obviously the car has a big say. Thats part of the sport. PG has already pointed that out. Its about having the right sponsors, engineers,designers,chassis,engine and driver all at the same time. Its a package deal. Thats what F1 is all about.

A1 is same cars, different team colours. Good idea but just does not have that edge about it.

[American]

If its just the car then how come Rubens has not won a race? Don`t give me set up. If you can`t set that car up to win you should not be racing.

By that logic, Button shouldn't have been racing last season when he finished lower than Rubens.

The fact he has been able to make such a big jump this season shows the greater importance of the car and set-up.

[pg]

When the Honda car has been 'bad'...Rubens was as fast/faster than Button.

This year, Rubens doesn't know which way Button went.

Button is a very good driver, but IMO I can't classify him as a 'great' because he seems to be unable to adapt his driving style to a car's characteristics.

Anyway, enough of Button, let's talk more about Mark Webber. Isn't he fantastic?

[AlanK]

When the Honda car has been 'bad'...Rubens was as fast/faster than Button.

This year, Rubens doesn't know which way Button went.

Button is a very good driver, but IMO I can't classify him as a 'great' because he seems to be unable to adapt his driving style to a car's characteristics.

Anyway, enough of Button, let's talk more about Mark Webber. Isn't he fantastic?

Agreed, he is certainly no great. Not yet anyway. However, he is learning. he had to adapt his style to be less smooth and more aggresive at Monaco.

Webber? Very quick and i would like to see him win some time.

[broadsword]

By that logic, Button shouldn't have been racing last season when he finished lower than Rubens.

The fact he has been able to make such a big jump this season shows the greater importance of the car and set-up.

God almighty, you're as stubborn as an ox. You must rub so many people up the wrong way.

Difference between the two last year - 8 points.

Difference this year - 26 points (7 races).

[AlanK]

And that included Rubens fluking a 3rd at Silverstone in the rain because his team gambled on a nothing to lose strategy!