[Archived] Gordon Brown

[broadsword]

Equally the Conservative Party still retains it's fundamental beliefs and no matter how David Cameron tries to dress it up the party will not and cannot embrace real change.

With respect pg you would have to live in this country for a lot longer to appreciate the difference between the Conservative and Labour ideologies. I entirely agree there is much wrong with the present administration but one should never forget the Conservative party is primarily centred on the individual as opposed to society. A massive difference in my view.

paul, could you give me an example of current tory policy which proves that they cannot embrace "real" (as opposed to "pretend" I guess) change? "Embrace real change", that sounds like a soundbite itself, have you been re-engaging with the electorate to find out the things that really concern them?

The tories are primarily centred on the individual? This sounds like an entrenched view based more on historical prejudice rather than any deep analysis of contemporary politics.

I put it to you that today's political parties are less concerned with ideology than with acquiring and retaining power. Additionally, I see New Labour as a neo-Thatcherite party who abandoned their principles to woo middle-England whilst retaining their traditional core vote despite abandoning Clause 4 etc.

this is why Labour is now stuffed, when they hauled up the anchor and "branded" themselves they set themselves adrift. where do they go from here?

[Billy Castell]

Exactly right. Those who chose to change from one election to another demonstrate their own shallowness. The Labour Party clearly has real problems and challenges ahead but does at least still have a fundamental belief in socialism. Equally the Conservative Party still retains it's fundamental beliefs and no matter how David Cameron tries to dress it up the party will not and cannot embrace real change.

The Conservatives completely changed their fundamental beliefs during the time Thatcher was party leader. Traditionally, they were a paternal party,who sought to keep the class system, but look after the poorer, but the likes of Thatcher, Keith Joseph and others were sold on the ideas of Classical Liberalism espoused by economists like Hayek and Friedman. Thatcher probably wanted people to be left alone, with shares in privatised industries as part of a 'stakeholder society'. What actually happened was overwhelming centralisation and people engaged in an orgy of spending and borrowing.

Labour went through a process of becoming more electable by moving towards these views over the 1980's and 1990's. The result was a shiny, well rehearsed government that had no depth of priniples whatsoever. Take away the star performer in Blair, and the house of cards will tumble.

Mr. Cameron is a variation on Blair.

[Paul]

I don't underestimate the historical chasm that used to exist between the Tories and Labour....however surely you'd agree that over the past two decades that chasm has now narrowed to a small brook.

The ideologies of the parties will change in order to get them elected. The parties will represent the establishment once they are in power.

New Labour is not the Labour of the 50's and 60's...likewise Cameron is not Margaret Thatcher.

I'd agree with much of what you say though I do not agree the chasm has narrowed to that extent. Obviously we can only comment on the Labour government of recent years but I do believe they have made greater investment in public services than the Tories would have done. It is very easy to find all that is wrong and make headlines. I have had to use the NHS more in the last two years than in the previous 50+ due to a couple of accidents and it has been superb. The extension of social services for those with special needs is very, very good, underfunded etc but very good. Having said this my wife works in front line NHS services and it is clear there are real problems still to be addressed. The area in which my wife works will be in big trouble in 5 years time when the extraordinarily dedicated people currently working begin to retire.

I have commented before life for my family under 18 years of Conservative administration was bloody difficult. Partly through our own efforts life has been better under the current government but this also due to policies and spending implemented by this government which has directly impacted on our household. If we take finances alone we have all enjoyed greater stability under Labour than under the Tories. If one blames Labour for the current financial mess one also has to praise them for the stability. I know the response this will raise from some in the blue corner!

While I remain a Labour supporter should an election be called tomorrow I'm unsure of how I would vote. It's clear many MPs have behaved disgracefully and we know very little of the true extent of this scandal. One side of me does not want vote for a mainstream party, the other side knows to abstain is to do nothing. What we need is real reform, not the rubbish that both Brown and Cameron are spouting.

[Paul]

paul, could you give me an example of current tory policy which proves that they cannot embrace "real" (as opposed to "pretend" I guess) change? "Embrace real change", that sounds like a soundbite itself, have you been re-engaging with the electorate to find out the things that really concern them?

The tories are primarily centred on the individual? This sounds like an entrenched view based more on historical prejudice rather than any deep analysis of contemporary politics.

I put it to you that today's political parties are less concerned with ideology than with acquiring and retaining power. Additionally, I see New Labour as a neo-Thatcherite party who abandoned their principles to woo middle-England whilst retaining their traditional core vote despite abandoning Clause 4 etc.

this is why Labour is now stuffed, when they hauled up the anchor and "branded" themselves they set themselves adrift. where do they go from here?

Sorry Bryan "embrace real change" was awful. To try and answer your question on Conservative policy, can you give me an example of Tory policy? I know this is a very trite response but I do not have a clue what Cameron stands for. What I hear is lots of nice, friendly phrases and I believe it's a mask. The headline makers may be making the right noises but has the leopard changed his spots? I'm not sure and I don't want to risk finding out. Put it simply I trust Cameron even less than I trust Brown.

Yes I do base my view of the Conservative party on historical prejudice. I lived through the Conservative government, much of it was not very pleasant and I do not want to see it again. Obviously New Labour abandoned aspects of previous Labour policy, had they not we migt still have a Conservative government. Labour had to cahnge and had to become more attractive to middle England to win. Possibly better to attempt to govern with policies acceptable to a majority than with a set of policies only acceptable to a decreasing minority?

I'd agree on the point regarding power and ideology, especially with Brown in charge. He should never have become PM and is a man I entirely distrust. Labour probably is, as you say, currently stuffed. If Brown goes, please God, they may have a chance but it will take a dramatic turn around if Labour is to win the next General Election. I suspect the next election is for the Tories to lose rather than Labour win.

[philipl]

The party that focuses on the individual is the Liberal Party and not the Conservative Party.

The Tories will always place what they perceive as getting efficiency through market operations (business interests) ahead of the individual. And there is a nasty authoritarian streak in them not forgetting patrician superiority complexes.

The Brown Government and Labour has clearly collapsed and lost all legitimacy to be in power.

But I look at Cameron and see nothing- a vacuum in place of a philosophy and no coherence in the policies. Stuff like their Lisbon position is taken from Harold Wilson's 1974 "how to win by being utterly cynical and dishonest with the electorate" campaign. It will be straight to carnage under a Dave Government without the OK bits New Labour gave us before losing the plot.

[roversmum]

Good lad ; now who on here is actually going to admit voting for the Tory party ?

Me. And what's more I'm a Tory Councillor.

I've had many dealings with my colleagues in the Labour Party over the years, and the corruption, racism and hatred I have come across is a disgrace, only they are very clever at hiding it, plus they have many chums in the press - you probably know them, Jim.

I believe that everyone should have opportunity, but with that opportunity should come responsibility. I don't believe in the nanny state, the old saying about a peck of dirt is, in my opinion, a good basis for life.

I have no problem with those who cannot work being supported, but I do have an issue with perfectly capable people sitting at home on their backsides and treating leeching off the state as a career choice. Those who have lost work through no fault of their own need help to find new jobs, perhaps through training.

I don't have any problems with people setting up businesses and making a success of them, I'm not jealous of success.

Provision for those who are unable to help themselves for whatever reason is a joke. There are not enough social workers, and they are not adequately funded or aware of their responsibilities.

I don't believe in educational inclusion. Anyone who has a child with special educational needs will be fully aware it does not work.

I don't want to go into hospital and find a mixed sex ward, dirty surroundings, and leave with MRSA or some other nasty bug, and there are not nearly enough nurses.

I am happy to live in a democracy, we must keep it at all costs, and I respect the opinions of others and expect them to respect mine.

I don't believe in Burnley.

[cletus]

Sky news today spoke of the "crisis" in Gordon Brown`s cabinet. Apparently there`s only 2 females in it now.......surely there`s not that much cleaning required at number 10??

[Tris]

There's not many people in it full stop!

James Purnell, Work and Pensions secretary, has resigned from the cabinet and called on Brown to go.

[RibbleValleyRover]

There's not many people in it full stop!

James Purnell, Work and Pensions secretary, has resigned from the cabinet and called on Brown to go.

Can't see Brown surviving now, too much momentum.

[Ewood Spark]

But then again they did tax the wealth creators 50%! Socialism rules!!

Being married to one of these 'wealth creators' I'm not sure what your point is

[RibbleValleyRover]

Looks like Milliband has backed Brown, though that will have an impact on the reshuffle. Milliband reportedly wants to stay in the foreign office so if Brown asks him to move then i can see this backing changing pretty quickly.

[broadsword]

Sorry Bryan "embrace real change" was awful. To try and answer your question on Conservative policy, can you give me an example of Tory policy? I know this is a very trite response but I do not have a clue what Cameron stands for.

Bit daft to comment on their policy if you don't know it?

All might have been sweetness and light under Labour as far as public services are concerned (thanks to the tax receipts created by a cheap credit boom). But even if they do stay in power then cuts will have to be made.

This country owes mega-money and it will take a long time to pay it back.

Of course if I was cynical I'd say they've ruined things in time for teh Tories to take over, with things so bad the Tories will get slated no matter what.

[jim mk2]

Me. And what's more I'm a Tory Councillor.

Oh dear, and I used to think you were a nice person.

Thank you anyway for nailing your colours to the mast, something which most other Tories on here appear reluctant to do probably out of embarrassment.

[scotchrover]

Me. And what's more I'm a Tory Councillor.

Why???? I mean you lot shut us down in 80's!

Thank you anyway for nailing your colours to the mast, something which most other Tories on here appear reluctant to do probably out of embarrassment.

Yep, thats true Jim but from a couple of guesses we could probably work it out though, bacup blue, phillipl etc. I'll nail colours to the mast and say iam a Lib Dem because we ineffensive and nobody ever listens to us! and thats why where never in power and never hated!

[thenodrog]

Oh dear, and I used to think you were a nice person.

Thank you anyway for nailing your colours to the mast, something which most other Tories on here appear reluctant to do probably out of embarrassment.

Stupid or what? How does that affect roversmum's 'niceness rating?

btw.... Talking of nice it's 'nice' to see that you are still feverishly digging your own grave.

[Paul]

Bit daft to comment on their policy if you don't know it?

Bryan you're an intelligent enough chap to know I'm saying the country does not know what Cameron's policies are because he doesn't have any. One can't make choices about the Tories when they will not offer policy. That is the Conservatives fault not mine.

[Paul]

I have no problem with those who cannot work being supported, but I do have an issue with perfectly capable people sitting at home on their backsides and treating leeching off the state as a career choice. Those who have lost work through no fault of their own need help to find new jobs, perhaps through training.

I don't have any problems with people setting up businesses and making a success of them, I'm not jealous of success.

Provision for those who are unable to help themselves for whatever reason is a joke. There are not enough social workers, and they are not adequately funded or aware of their responsibilities.

I don't believe in educational inclusion. Anyone who has a child with special educational needs will be fully aware it does not work.

I am very aware of the sensitive nature of this subject and will try to treat it as such but I want to comment on those remarks. The great difficulty with the whole subject is so much can depend on individual experience or, and this is a complete disgrace, the ability of parents / carers to argue their case. I have been a Labour supporter longer than I have been a special needs parent, so my political persuasions pre-date the unexpected changes my son's birth brought into our lives.

Under Conservative policies provision for those with special needs was a disgrace to the country. The lack of real support for those unable to help themselves can be demonstrated by decisions we took to provide financially for our son in later life. We paidy insurance premiums, at a greater cost than our mortgage, to ensure his longterm security. As parents we were not prepared to risk him being denied a decent life (in the event of our deaths) through lack of state funding, even though it had a real impact on the rest of the family, despite our best efforts to avoid this. We knew the state would not provide for Tom when we died and determined to do all we could to finance his future ourselves. Under Labour this situation has reversed. Under a Conservative government the future for my son looked grim, almost Victorian, under Labour I'm happy to say the situation has improved dramatically. It is still not good enough, I know we have been fortunate, I know those able to argue their case do better than those who cannot, I know it's underfunded etc but I also know the future looks a sight brighter than it did under Thatcher.

As a child I lived next door to a home for Mongol's. I can be non-PC 'cos that's how people would have referred to my son 50 years ago and stuck in a home. We saw those children twice a year, at Christmas midnight mass and at the institution's Summer fete. Today my lad is included in society, 50 years ago he would have been excluded and hidden away. It is true inclusive education does not work for all but there are many for whom it has been a success. As individual one may not believe in inclusive education but to deny the opportunity for inclusion to child and parents is, in my view, wrong. We have been fortunate to live in Lancashire - "a place where everyone matters" where educational inclusion has become a right for all and a benefit for many. My problem with non-inclusive education is it runs many risks, most significantly hiding those who are different from society when those individuals have a real contribution to make by being included in daily life. When my son was born I had to ask a young midwife "Is this what people used to call mongolism?" I was so terribly ignorant because I'd had no chance to learn and even worse I was frightened of anyone who was different. It took me years to break that fear and learn to see the person, not for my lad but for others, because it was so alien. Inclusive education helps the individual and improves our society by breaking down the barriers created by exclusion. I doubt people would react in the same way today.

Provision for people with special needs was almost non-existent under Conservative administrations. Anyone with more than £000 in the bank received nothing, until those savings were spent. We still have a long way to go but Labour have made huge progress in this area. Under Labour those unable to help themselves can now live in the community, receive reasonable support, etc this was simply not the case under the Conservatives. We cannot know what Tory policy would have been in these areas, this is not their fault as they have not had the opportunity to demonstrate a policy, however we do know Labour policy works to an extent and prior to this there was no decent provsion.

[Paul]

I have real confusion over how I would now vote in a general election but today I will be supporting our local Labour candidate. A young man of 22 who has put in a tremendous amount of work locally, demonstrated committment to the community, brings youthful enthusiasm and has canvassed our area three times. We have yet to receive any other electoral material telling us who represents the other parties. How can one be expected to consider voting for a party that does not even tell the electorate the candidate's name?

As I arrived home at 8.00pm yesterday the first person I saw was Chris France (22 years old), the Labour candidate, tramping the seats with some young supporters. I knew who he was by sight, I discovered the name of the Conservative and Liberal candidates at the polling booth. I know what this young man stands for locally, I haven't a clue about the others because they didn't feel it was important enough to tell me. So it's great to know that locally the Conservatives and Liberals are concerned to understand me and communicate their solutions to my concerns.

[Alan75]

Well weve had a recycle bin full of party literature, mainly photos of the various candidates and very little details of their policies stuck through our letter box during the last month.

We had Local Parrish election, (6 candidates)County Election (3 candidates) & EU Election (9+ candidates)

Yet with over 18 candidates I havent seen any canvassing in our area.

I suspect they've been spending their time reading the rules on what expenses they can get away with.

[pg]

If Brown stands down/kicked out.... who will step up to the Labour leadership?

What happened to the Labour MP who resigned over the Iraq war?

[Ewood Spark]

Me. And what's more I'm a Tory Councillor.

I've had many dealings with my colleagues in the Labour Party over the years, and the corruption, racism and hatred I have come across is a disgrace, only they are very clever at hiding it, plus they have many chums in the press - you probably know them, Jim.

Are you seriously suggesting that those who 'lean to the Left' are more likely to be racist and hate-filled :!: ... if you are I suggest you start reading the Daily Mail ... 'the voice of the Right'.

[philipl]

As I arrived home at 8.00pm yesterday the first person I saw was Chris France (22 years old), the Labour candidate, tramping the seats with some young supporters. I knew who he was by sight, I discovered the name of the Conservative and Liberal candidates at the polling booth. I know what this young man stands for locally, I haven't a clue about the others because they didn't feel it was important enough to tell me. So it's great to know that locally the Conservatives and Liberals are concerned to understand me and communicate their solutions to my concerns.

And that is exactly how people should use their vote in local elections.

It pains me to see Labour losing Derbyshire which by any measure has been superbly well run and the Tories retaining Surrey which by any measure is a totally failed administration.

[Paul]

And that is exactly how people should use their vote in local elections.

.......and is it not also how we should use our vote nationally? Lynsey Hoyle is my MP, a man well known in our local community, frequently seen in the area at functions of all shapes and sizes, someone who appears to be in touch with the community. I have never met him but I truely hope he gets out into the community and bangs on my door sometime in the lead up to the General Election we must have in the next 12 months.

[philipl]

General Electons are slightly different in that party policy differences come much more into play.

I can think of some decent Tory MPs but Cameron getting a big majority is a truly horrific proposition in my eyes.

[thenodrog]

Being married to one of these 'wealth creators' I'm not sure what your point is

Hey ES there's a way around that 50% malarky! Get her to accept a basic of 65k and claim the rest as expenses!