[Archived] Gordon Brown

[dave birch]

American, because you put "fact" in capitals, doesn't make it true.

How about some evidence, then, I might believe.

[philipl]

1) The Telegraph have taken the lists of expenses miscreants by party off their web site (what a surprise- it showed a very uncomfortable situation for Cameron) but there were more Tories than Labour MPs in trouble which when you consider that there are 359 Labour MPs compared with 214 Tories, it showed that proportionately Tory MPs are more likely to be miscreants than Labour

MY FACT CORRECT

2) Expenses are a function of where the MP's constituency is. The Tories had been mostly wiped out of Scotland, the north of England and the West of England by the last electon. So far fewer of their MPs serve constituencies a great distance from home and consequently of course Labour MPs' expenses would be higher than Conservatves. In fact if the difference is only £7,000, it only goes to show just how much more the Tories were on the make compared with the Labour MPs when you consider the need to have a home within the division bell area if you have to find somewhere in London and how expensive travel is within the UK.

YOUR FACT Boomerangs back on you.

[American]

Also look at the areas their constituents are in. The areas you talk about are cheaper to find local office space, negating travel differences.

It's all semantics anyhow, as they are all corrupt.

[Tris]

1) The Telegraph have taken the lists of expenses miscreants by party off their web site (what a surprise- it showed a very uncomfortable situation for Cameron) but there were more Tories than Labour MPs in trouble which when you consider that there are 359 Labour MPs compared with 214 Tories, it showed that proportionately Tory MPs are more likely to be miscreants than Labour

MY FACT CORRECT

2) Expenses are a function of where the MP's constituency is. The Tories had been mostly wiped out of Scotland, the north of England and the West of England by the last electon. So far fewer of their MPs serve constituencies a great distance from home and consequently of course Labour MPs' expenses would be higher than Conservatves. In fact if the difference is only £7,000, it only goes to show just how much more the Tories were on the make compared with the Labour MPs when you consider the need to have a home within the division bell area if you have to find somewhere in London and how expensive travel is within the UK.

YOUR FACT Boomerangs back on you.

Joe voting public doesn't really care about either (1) or (2). That's why most of the country turned blue yesterday.

And that in an election where people can choose to vote on local issues or register a protest. One can only begin to imagine the decimation faced by Labour at a General Election.

[philipl]

Also look at the areas their constituents are in. The areas you talk about are cheaper to find local office space, negating travel differences.

It's all semantics anyhow, as they are all corrupt.

Wrong again on both fronts.

Typically, a Parliamentary candidate will live in their constituency and needs accommodation in London when elected- most second homes are there (hence the flipping to avoid capital gains tax when the London second home is sold).

And no they are not all corrupt. Even the Telegraph published lists of MPs in all parties who had conspicuously not abused the opportunities that were clearly there.

[jim mk2]

So, to sum up

Alistair Darling - chancellor, stays in post

David Miliband - foreign, stays in post

Jack Straw - justice, stays in post

Lord Mandelson - business, stays in post

Ed Balls - schools, stays in post

Ed Miliband - climate, stays in post

Jim Murphy - Scotland, stays in post

Alan Johnson - Home, new job

Yvette Cooper - work and pensions, new job

Bob Ainsworth - defence, new job

John Denham - communities, new job

John Hutton, James Purnell, Jacqui Smith, Hazel Blears have left the cabinet.

Less changes than most other cabinet reshuffles and hardly worthy of the lurid headlines in the right-wing media this week. The cabinet is also stronger with some very talented people on board.

In 12 months the cross-party expenses furore will be forgotten and put to bed and the economy well into a strong recovery.

Plenty of time yet for Call Me Dave to be exposed as a shallow conman and the country to be reminded of the misery inflicted on the nation by the Tories in the 1980s.

Gordon Brown is a survivor. The toaster's not even plugged in yet.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

So, to sum up

Alistair Darling - chancellor, stays in post

David Miliband - foreign, stays in post

Jack Straw - justice, stays in post

Lord Mandelson - business, stays in post

Ed Balls - schools, stays in post

Ed Miliband - climate, stays in post

Jim Murphy - Scotland, stays in post

Alan Johnson - Home, new job

Yvette Cooper - work and pensions, new job

Bob Ainsworth - defence, new job

John Denham - communities, new job

John Hutton, James Purnell, Jacqui Smith, Hazel Blears have left the cabinet.

Less changes than most other cabinet reshuffles and hardly worthy of the lurid headlines in the right-wing media this week. The cabinet is also stronger with some very talented people on board.

In 12 months the cross-party expenses furore will be forgotten and put to bed and the economy well into a strong recovery.

Plenty of time yet for Call Me Dave to be exposed as a shallow conman and the country to be reminded of the misery inflicted on the nation by the Tories in the 1980s.

Gordon Brown is a survivor. The toaster's not even plugged in yet.

[BiggusLaddus]

Brown cannot win an election - says Mandelson

As Labour candidates score fewer votes than the Monster Raving Loony Party.

And

gets rebranded.

[BuckyRover]

Well done Mandy. Tell it like it is :-)

[broadsword]

In 12 months the cross-party expenses furore will be forgotten and put to bed and the economy well into a strong recovery.

I'm not sure which of the two is the least likely?

All governments have mid-term blues, but Brown's administration has had all-term blues.

The tide has now turned, and Brown will be gone. anyone dreaming of a Labour victory next year is a Walter Mitty-style fantasist.

The expenses furore won't be forgotten, and it is the government of teh day (rightly or wrongly) who will be punished for it.

You'll get over it in time, James.

[BuckyRover]

Of course it's right they are punished for it! If they had done something before when they had a MASSIVE majority, they could have made the Tories look very bad, but they didn't and therefore this is where they find themselves.

[broadsword]

I know, Gordon Brown makes a public resolution to sort out this de-frauding of teh tax-payer ... but only once the Telegraph has shamed him into it.

Just like he had been saying that the global financial regulatory system had needed fixing for years, and he'd been saying so. Despite the fact that his light-touch financial regulation has left the UK defences down and caused us to get shafted.

Does anyone really believe what politicians say any more? Only a total ass would believe what Gordon brown said.

[American]

Wrong again on both fronts.

Typically, a Parliamentary candidate will live in their constituency and needs accommodation in London when elected- most second homes are there (hence the flipping to avoid capital gains tax when the London second home is sold).

And no they are not all corrupt. Even the Telegraph published lists of MPs in all parties who had conspicuously not abused the opportunities that were clearly there.

Of course, you ignore that I talked about office space, not homes.

And of those that aren't corrupt, I noticed that Dave was chief among them, unlike the other guy, but just because they are clean on this doesn't mean they are paragons of virtue.

[RovertheHill]

I hope Jim is right about the strong recovery but I fear not.

People will not quickly forget the expenses debacle - from any party.

Two funniest (in an ironic sense) things last week

1) Hazel Blears "reconnect with the public and show them our values are their values" - which value would that be then - tax avoidance or manipulation of the expenses system

2) All the Brownites jumping up and down about the disloyalty of certain ministers, after he spent at least 5 years as Chancellor plotting, briefing, politicking against Tony Blair and anyone else who got in his way.

I'm afraid Vince Cable hit the nail on the head - from Stalin to Mr Bean.

[tashor]

Talking about funny things I've just watcched the Newsnight special on BBC2.

Lord Hattersley thought that if ( as he expects ) Broone survives the next week he will emerge much stronger than before as he will have removed those in cabinet who have been fighting him and holding him back from having total domination !! When asked what he meant by this he replied " ...He won't have Hazel Blears nipping at his heels ......'.

Manchester terriers will never seem the same again.

[1864roverite]

There are still far too many people who do not realise the long term effect of the money robbing labour party.

They have increased taxes beyond belief and yet they still want to spend mor emoney on the wrong things.

Council tax is ridiculously high and rising, just what do we have to do to stop this payment being stolen from our earnings ?

VAT and tax cuts are a gimmick, the money saved is recouped elsewhere.

The sooner brown is sent packing the better.

The Tories may just have learned from the experiences that cost them office 15 years or so ago. I am certain that David Cameron and co can not do ANy worse than this current inadequate office.

Tony Blair bluffed the lot of us does anyone not beleive that with the way he scarpered off when he realised they had been found out ?

has any Labour politician ever explained why council tax has doubled ?

No they hide behind spin and it is spin that has cost them.

The end of the labour party is nigh, thank christ for that

[philipl]

Of course, you ignore that I talked about office space, not homes.

And of those that aren't corrupt, I noticed that Dave was chief among them, unlike the other guy, but just because they are clean on this doesn't mean they are paragons of virtue.

Dave Cameron has a bit of a problem with flipping actually.

I ignored the office bit because it is somewhat irrelevant other than who gets employed in them. London offices are provided by the State and constituency office space tends to be provided by the local parties and therefore are often not an MP expense.

[67splitscreen]

Blair sticks the boot in Brown.

Brands him as a liar.

Big Boot

Ouch!.

[Tris]

Less changes than most other cabinet reshuffles and hardly worthy

Fewer changes. Plural. Don't you need basic grammar knowledge to scrub the floors on the News International night shift?

Explains a lot.

[Paul]

Brown cannot win an election - says Mandelson

I'm no fan of Brown or Mandelson but this needs putting in perspective - the e-mails purporting to express this view were written in January 2008, 18 months ago, and cannot therefore refer to the current political / financial difficulties the country faces. Media manipulation at it's worst from rag not worth hanging in the toilet.

[broadsword]

Surely the position's got worse for Brown, not better in the last 18 months?

Let's see what the euro election results are like tonight ...

Every govt. has mid-term blues and expects to get a kick in the ballots part-way through its term, but I'd suggest we've not seen protest votes going in, but rather a large scale desertion of Labour.

[thenodrog]

There are still far too many people who do not realise the long term effect of the money robbing labour party.

They have increased taxes beyond belief and yet they still want to spend mor emoney on the wrong things.

Council tax is ridiculously high and rising, just what do we have to do to stop this payment being stolen from our earnings ?

VAT and tax cuts are a gimmick, the money saved is recouped elsewhere.

The sooner brown is sent packing the better.

The Tories may just have learned from the experiences that cost them office 15 years or so ago. I am certain that David Cameron and co can not do ANy worse than this current inadequate office.

Tony Blair bluffed the lot of us does anyone not beleive that with the way he scarpered off when he realised they had been found out ?

has any Labour politician ever explained why council tax has doubled ?

No they hide behind spin and it is spin that has cost them.

The end of the labour party is nigh, thank christ for that

The council tax was brought in by the Tories (albeit at a lower level) to replace the Poll tax which although labelled by the red tops as an 'unfair tax' was actually the fairest tax of all. The Council tax is completely illogical in conception and is just biased against everybody with a valuable house regardless of wealth or personal circumstance. How the nation has stood for it beggars belief. It is simply a sop to please the masses and another example of the unfairness of our democracy.

Fewer changes. Plural. Don't you need basic grammar knowledge to scrub the floors on the News International night shift?

Explains a lot.

Crikey Tris thats funny but also a bit picky if you don't mind me saying so. The form and structure of Jimski's posts is nowhere near as flawed as the content.

I'm no fan of Brown or Mandelson but this needs putting in perspective - the e-mails purporting to express this view were written in January 2008, 18 months ago, and cannot therefore refer to the current political / financial difficulties the country faces. Media manipulation at it's worst from rag not worth hanging in the toilet.

So in the popularity stakes Paul is Brown and also are New Labour higher in the rankings or lower than they were when Mandy sent that email?

btw Don't shoot the messenger when the message is correct.

[Drummer Boy]

Whilst far from enamoured with the performance of the Labour Party in government - certainly over the last 6 years - I also remember what a Conservative government actually means and don't want to go back to that heartless lot and pay 15% interest on my mortgage for the privilege of being led by a man who is the archetypal public school bully. Is there a viable alternative? And before anyone says LibDem, I said viable. In the meantime, maybe the pick of a bad bunch is the right solution - but please remember what a Conservative government was like before saying things like "they can't be any worse than Brown/Blair/Labour" - they can and were and I see no evidence they have learnt their lesson. The emperor has merely changed his clothes.

[broadsword]

So the Tory party won't have changed at all? Unlike Labour, of course. What leads you to believe that it would be the same all over again?

Any why is Cameron an "archetypal school bully"? Who's he been bullying?

[Drummer Boy]

No, they won't have changed at all and we'll only realise after they grease their way back into power

Cameron bullies his own people and anyone who dares to have a different view - just listen to him next time he's on telly. The man's an overprivileged prig who has little or nothing in common with Joe Normal and will say or do whatever he has to do to get into power regardless of his beliefs.

Now don't get me wrong, I hold a similar view of all politicians, but the apparent sanctification of Cameron and his party shows how short memories can be and how we are prepared to accept being led by bullies with no principles or beliefs other than the pursuit of power itself.

Bring back "conviction politicians" who have a belief, try to persuade you of it and you can believe them if not always agree with them. At the same time, how about politicians with some life experience beyond the refectory?