[Archived] Gordon Brown

[broadsword]

It's time for a third way.... right after we fix up the CO2 problem.

"New" Labour was meant to be the Third Way though wasn't it?

Just more of the same rubbish. And now the country really is in the poop.

Love how Jim is bigging up the Tories feasting off the taxpayer, but has been strangely much less critical of Labour. He really has got a "New Labour chip" in his head. Very amusing!

[DE.]

I think the reason many don't vote, in the UK, is either because they're so disenchanted with the current model of "democratic" Government that they know that their vote doesn't actually mean a whole lot, or because they simply have no desire to vote, as they are uninformed or don't give a sh1t. Good for the Government's republic/democracy, bad for the rest of us.

[Billy Castell]

It's time for a third way.... right after we fix up the CO2 problem.

It would have to be a forth way, since the 'third way' term has had a bad press. First it was used to describe Fascist economic policies and then the broad, capitalist thinking of Clinton and Blair. The third way leads to madness and decline!

[jim mk2]

If we have compulsary voting, I'll form the apathy party, and campaign for all the people who don't want to vote.

Agree.

Compulsory republic might be acceptable in a banana republic such as Australia but in a free democracy everyone should have the right not to vote if they so wish and forcing people to vote who then spoil the ballot paper in protest seems to me to be a waste of everyone's time.

Check your spelling BTW.

[BuckyRover]

People don't vote, because they have this romantic idea that they should be able choose a party that is good and decent when in fact you are voting for the least repulsive party.

Democracy is voting for the party that is the lesser of the two evils.

It will always be this way. Enjoy your right. I have voted at every opportunity, people have died for this us to have this right. Don't make their deaths pointless

[jim mk2]

It gets better and better.

Cheryl Gillan, the shadow Welsh secretary, has been claiming for dog food at taxpayers’ expense.

You have to hand it to the Tories; far more inventive in their claims than the Labour chaps.

Latest revelations in the Torygraph include James Arbuthnot, chairman of the Defence Select Committee, who claimed for pool maintenance as well as £2,433 for the cost of a housekeeper and £2,749 for work on trees.

Eton-educated Mr Arbuthnot claimed £108,062 on his second home in five years, the most available under the MPs' allowances system.

Backbench Tory MP David Heathcoat-Amory claimed more than £380 for horse manure.

Sir Michael Spicer, chairman of the Tory backbench 1922 Committee, claimed for the hanging of a chandelier at his manor house.

And Douglas Hogg, a former agriculture secretary, spent more than £2,000 expenses clearing the moat on his Lincolnshire estate.

[pg]

"New" Labour was meant to be the Third Way though wasn't it?

Just more of the same rubbish. And now the country really is in the poop.

Love how Jim is bigging up the Tories feasting off the taxpayer, but has been strangely much less critical of Labour. He really has got a "New Labour chip" in his head. Very amusing!

The 'third way' as practiced by Tony Blair, Bob Hawke and Paul Keating, and Bill Clinton was essentially do what the banks/finance sector want...i.e. implement free-market reforms and deregulate the economy, but be union-friendly at the same time.

They got away with it because the unions make up such a small % of the overall workforce, that they could be seen to support the unions and the 'working classes' while still doing what Wall St wants.

The two main structural changes to the US economy which created the economic collapse of the Western Banking systems were implemented by Bill Clinton.

The 'third way' is why these governments have been so successful, in that they pushed the conservative opposition into the extreme right (e.g. George Bush, John Howard). By holding onto their base (even though it is largely insignificant) and embracing the ideology of the finance and banking sector, the 'third way' grabbed the middle-ground of the political spectrum.

What is needed is to throw the money-lenders out of the temple, change the way interest and finance work, create a global commodity-based currency (which the Chinese and Russians are already talking about)..and ultimately build a society based upon fundamentals (such as energy usage) rather than 'confidence'.

[thenodrog]

The difference is, I'm not moaning or whingeing.

I did what every concerned citizen in Australia did that November day, I just cast my ballot. Remember that this is a place where voting is compulsory. So I did do something, along with millions of others. We did make a difference.

All I did in my previous post was to highlight the further failings of one John Winston Howard.

So, theno, what ARE you going to do about the problems that cause you so much angst? Do you ever call your local councillor or MP to complain? I do, as do some of my mates. Hound 'em theno, it really does change things.

I've read (somewhere) that if they had compulsory voting in the UK, that the tories would never be in government. Is that right?

Isn't it a democratic right not to vote?

This happened back in the mid 80's when they wanted to build a dam in Tasmania, so many people wrote "No Dams" across their votes that the "spoilt ballots" increased by several % points, (and, if I remember correctly, they included all those that they could in the official count)

The upshot was the dam was never built as it caused so much angst in the government.

Has the nuclear power station been completed yet?

Love how Jim is bigging up the Tories feasting off the taxpayer, but has been strangely much less critical of Labour. He really has got a "New Labour chip" in his head. Very amusing!

Thats about all that is in it.

[thenodrog]

You have to hand it to the Tories; far more inventive in their claims than the Labour chaps.

Latest revelations in the Torygraph include James Arbuthnot, chairman of the Defence Select Committee, who claimed for pool maintenance as well as £2,433 for the cost of a housekeeper and £2,749 for work on trees.

Eton-educated Mr Arbuthnot claimed £108,062 on his second home in five years, the most available under the MPs' allowances system.

Backbench Tory MP David Heathcoat-Amory claimed more than £380 for horse manure.

Sir Michael Spicer, chairman of the Tory backbench 1922 Committee, claimed for the hanging of a chandelier at his manor house.

And Douglas Hogg, a former agriculture secretary, spent more than £2,000 expenses clearing the moat on his Lincolnshire estate.

Your head is seriously screwed.

Ever heard that two wrongs do not make a right? Tell you what Jim .... don't vote Tory. Instead move away from the 9th safest Tory seat in the country and get back into Blackburn proper so that you can vote for Jack. You know it makes sense.

[BiggusLaddus]

You have to hand it to the Tories; far more inventive in their claims than the Labour chaps.

Latest revelations in the Torygraph include James Arbuthnot, chairman of the Defence Select Committee, who claimed for pool maintenance as well as £2,433 for the cost of a housekeeper and £2,749 for work on trees.

Eton-educated Mr Arbuthnot claimed £108,062 on his second home in five years, the most available under the MPs' allowances system.

Backbench Tory MP David Heathcoat-Amory claimed more than £380 for horse manure.

Sir Michael Spicer, chairman of the Tory backbench 1922 Committee, claimed for the hanging of a chandelier at his manor house.

And Douglas Hogg, a former agriculture secretary, spent more than £2,000 expenses clearing the moat on his Lincolnshire estate.

Any porn yet?

[broadsword]

The 'third way' is why these governments have been so successful, in that they pushed the conservative opposition into the extreme right (e.g. George Bush, John Howard). By holding onto their base (even though it is largely insignificant) and embracing the ideology of the finance and banking sector, the 'third way' grabbed the middle-ground of the political spectrum.

Triangulation I think it's called.

Leaves the opposition with nowhere to go.

Very very cynical.

[pg]

Indeed.

But do you agree with me?

[broadsword]

Oh God, yeah.

The reason why Labour's been in power for so long was that the middle classes trusted them and didn't see a reason to go back to the Tories.

You end up with a political ideology that's solely concerned with acquiring power, there's no deep convictions. so now New Labour is thoroughly discredited, where do they go form here? They've triangulated themselves

[Billy Castell]

Yes indeed Bryan. The old Labour party would have gone fully Socialist, and been led by another Michael Foot figure, and promptly fell apart over ideological differences. Now there is no ideology, they might as well give Simon Cowell a ring and organise a 'Labour's got talent' show. Might fill an ad break on Coronation Street if we're lucky.

Mo Molem was the only Labour MP I had time for, but she died a long time ago.

[dave birch]

Isn't it a democratic right not to vote?

Got a potential solution for you theno.

If , lets say, at an election, the "Non voters" out number those that voted for any of the parties,( i.e, came first in a first past the post system), that no representative is sent to Westminster.

That's a fairly reasonable assumption of the majorities wishes, isn't it?

[Tris]

You have to hand it to the Tories; far more inventive in their claims than the Labour chaps.

Latest revelations in the Torygraph include James Arbuthnot, chairman of the Defence Select Committee, who claimed for pool maintenance as well as £2,433 for the cost of a housekeeper and £2,749 for work on trees.

Eton-educated Mr Arbuthnot claimed £108,062 on his second home in five years, the most available under the MPs' allowances system.

Backbench Tory MP David Heathcoat-Amory claimed more than £380 for horse manure.

Sir Michael Spicer, chairman of the Tory backbench 1922 Committee, claimed for the hanging of a chandelier at his manor house.

And Douglas Hogg, a former agriculture secretary, spent more than £2,000 expenses clearing the moat on his Lincolnshire estate.

Your head is seriously screwed.

Ever heard that two wrongs do not make a right? Tell you what Jim .... don't vote Tory. Instead move away from the 9th safest Tory seat in the country and get back into Blackburn proper so that you can vote for Jack. You know it makes sense.

Why isn't the one-eyed ex-hack spouting forth about Cameron's decisive measures to sort things out? Or tomorrows Lib Dem revelations? Or even the criticism being piled on the PM for being indecisive, helpless - a gasping fish out of water

[pg]

Cameron decisive? I thought he was a talking haircut.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Cameron decisive? I thought he was a talking haircut.

Ordering those MP's under scrutiny to pay back these excessive claims or face expulsion from the party is decisive, also laying down rules on what they can and cannot claim for from now on.

Meanwhile whats Brown been up to in his bunker?

[tony gale's mic]

Why isn't the one-eyed ex-hack spouting forth about Cameron's decisive measures to sort things out? Or tomorrows Lib Dem revelations? Or even the criticism being piled on the PM for being indecisive, helpless - a gasping fish out of water

:lol: Christ...and you call others one-eyed.

For the record I don't think either response has been particularly convincing and to paint the two responses as utter polar opposites is entirely in keeping with your usual drivel.

I do think whats happened is concerning and need to be addressed, but similarly the mass hysteria over it is hugely excessive. There's clearly a fault with the system - multiple politicians across all parties across all reputations have been caught. Yes MPs have been exploiting this system and this is wrong and needs to be condemned, but it's no different to what many reputable employees, both public and private sector, do in their jobs. Yes it's public money that they're wasting but the amount of money is negligible compared to how much public money is squandered on things that we all hear about.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8045869.stm I agree with some of Stephen Fry's sentiments here.

[pg]

Well I hope you all vote the Liberal Democrats in...if for nothing else..it would give the political establishment a big kick in the arse, and take a nice broom through the parliament.

[tony gale's mic]

Ordering those MP's under scrutiny to pay back these excessive claims or face expulsion from the party is decisive, also laying down rules on what they can and cannot claim for from now on.

Meanwhile whats Brown been up to in his bunker?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8046287.stm

To be fair if you're that easily swayed by either statement then you're a bit gullible.

[RibbleValleyRover]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8046287.stm

To be fair if you're that easily swayed by either statement then you're a bit gullible.

So Brown is going to do nothing about his MP's until however long it takes to set up this independent group and also wait for this review...

Cameron has shown far more leadership than Brown, today it was clear that to coin a Brown phase "The do nothing party" is Labour.

[tony gale's mic]

So Brown is going to do nothing about his MP's until however long it takes to set up this independent group and also wait for this review...

Cameron has shown far more leadership than Brown, today it was clear that to coin a Brown phase "The do nothing party" is Labour.

So action taken ASAP on a non-urgent matter and without review is better than independently reviewed, carefully considered action?

I don't think either statement offers a complete solution, but as I said in my previous post this is also being blown out of proportion just a tad.

[dave birch]

So Brown is going to do nothing about his MP's until however long it takes to set up this independent group and also wait for this review...

Cameron has shown far more leadership than Brown, today it was clear that to coin a Brown phase "The do nothing party" is Labour.

There is a long held view, that you never set up an "independent" committee/group to review a situation without knowing the outcome

[broadsword]

It's all very well saying the system's at fault, but who designed the system? MP's did, that's bloody who. Meanwhile the Speaker has apparently said he didn't come into politices not to take what is due to him, and has pulled out all the stops to prevent expenses being made public.

It's quite clear to me that these MP's have no thoughts as to public service, and instead just think of ways they can feather their own bloody nests.

How can the UK government now participate in the closing down of offshore tax havens when they're participating in an onshore tax haven. how can they lecture people on benefits scropunging when they're ripping off teh tax-payer left right and centre?

It's all bloody wrong and it needs a bloody strong wind of change blowing through the whole thing.