[Archived] More Crap From Hughes

[malk]

Jeez, I'm thinking there's some good comments on Hughes and City's scandalous under-valuation of RSC and I find this instead. A couple of points. You have skirted past thousands of years of historical fact to "fit" the facts to your agenda. Palestine was not just plucked out of the air (as opposed to say, Scotland ) - it is the site of the ancient Judah and Canaan, the kingdom of the Israelites and so on and so forth. It has been subsequently conquered by the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, and the area eventually referred to as something approaching Palestine during the Byzantine period. It was then overrun by various Caliphates and the Ottoman Empire resulting in the largely Muslim religion in the region ever since. Jewish migration to the area started during the Ottoman empire and accelerated throughout. As an example, Napolean floated the idea of a Jewish state in 1799. The Zionist agenda and the issues around it started in earnest in the 19th century culminating in the creation of Israel as you say. So it's a little bit more complicated than you say. As for the only religion that has a homeland - I don't suppose the Vatican City can be described as a homeland but it's a religious country. And if as you say you are simply anti-zionist then why even mention that it is the only religion that has a homeland? Do you get this wound up about the similar Western creation of Iraq, the partition of the Indian sub-continent and all the other colonial cock-ups we made in the early part of last century?

Anyway, what's Hughes playing at offering less for RSC than Wayne Bridge

I'm not sure that a post on a football message board constitutes and agenda... crikey!

The whole world has been fought over and vast swathes have changed hands between different peoples so, whilst given that Israel was created Palestine made sense, Israel needn't have been created and mere historical location is no justification for yoinking a bloody great tract of country.

People might not get as worked up at the examples you mention (though I tend to agree they often were cock-ups) but their current existence doesn't constitute a continued complicity on the part of the west, particularly the UK and US, in the subjugation of a people by an unlawful power. And I don't just mean the occupation of land past the '69 borders, how about secret nuclear weapons and the explicit denial thereof to the IAEA (as I remember) and therefore sidestepping signing the NNPT through ambiguity.

EDIT: I have to point out that Rome isn't the homeland of Roman Catholics despite the Vatican City being a country. Neither is Mecca the homeland of Islam. In both cases they are important sites in their respective religions but cannot be said to constitute a homeland. Also, isn't it strange that Jerusalem is the holiest city in both Catholicism and Judaism and 3rd most holy in Islam... could it be that THEY'RE ALL THE SAME BLOODY THING FROM DIFFERENT ANGLES! *ahem*

AND Hughes is making himself more of a tit by the day. If the RSC bid information is even close to being true then some serious ###### taking is going on, not to mention the hilarity of his attempts to buy the "top-top quality players" that he "never really had" with us... from us.

[RovertheHill]

I'm not sure that a post on a football message board constitutes and agenda... crikey!

The whole world has been fought over and vast swathes have changed hands between different peoples so, whilst given that Israel was created Palestine made sense, Israel needn't have been created and mere historical location is no justification for yoinking a bloody great tract of country.

People might not get as worked up at the examples you mention (though I tend to agree they often were cock-ups) but their current existence doesn't constitute a continued complicity on the part of the west, particularly the UK and US, in the subjugation of a people by an unlawful power. And I don't just mean the occupation of land past the '69 borders, how about secret nuclear weapons and the explicit denial thereof to the IAEA (as I remember) and therefore sidestepping signing the NNPT through ambiguity.

AND Hughes is making himself more of a tit by the day. If the RSC bid information is even close to being true then some serious ###### taking is going on, not to mention the hilarity of his attempts to buy the "top-top quality players" that he "never really had" with us... from us.

The point I was making is that the OP has a very black and white view of seemingly just about everything, and supports it with simple soundbites that deliberately ignore the vast and important history of events. I never commented on rights or wrongs. So for the OP to state that today there would be no war if it hadn't happened in 1945 is as fatuous as me saying that if there was no religion today there would be no war either.

As far as I can see RSC isn't desperate to leave this January. Therefore he should only go at the right price - and that price is equivalent to 2 Wayne Bridges in my world. If you don't want to pay that then eff off

[OscarRaven]

More crap from Hughes is thread on anti-semitic material and holocaust denial. Jesus (opps), what next?

[den]

As far as I can see RSC isn't desperate to leave this January.

What makes you say that? I get the impression that he is desperate to leave.

[RovertheHill]

What makes you say that? I get the impression that he is desperate to leave.

Well I'm simply piecing together the bits and pieces from Nicko and various news (as I have no inside knowledge). I'm not saying he doesn't want to leave - I think he does. But it seems to me his priority is 1) the £5m cut or whatever the figure is he will get from the fee 2) leaving Rovers and therefore if he has to wait to summer then so be it. Of course, the chances of Hughes still being there in summer may are slim to none as far as I can see - but hey, who knows?

[leftfooter]

Wrong terminology. The term you're looking for is anti-Zionist, and there is a WORLD of difference. Jewish people can enter Abu Dhabi with no problem, it's Israelis that can't. Abu Dhabi, along with many others, doesn't recognise that Israel- a country invented in 1945- should exist. That doesn't make them anti-Jewish (what anti-Semitic means) it makes them anti-Zionist.

Name me one other religion which has a homeland. (Jew not being a nationality but a religion). The "invention" of Israel was a guilt-sop by the Brits and Americans who could have stopped the genocide in Nazi Germany years before, but didn't. Notice the homeland was not put in Europe, but taken from an already poor country, Palestine. And that one act is the reason for all of the unrest in the world today. If Israel didn't exisit, the Palestinians would not be opressed, the rest of the Islamic world wouldn't be up in arms, and there wouldn't be a war.

I'm with Abu Dhabi on this. And a lot of my friends are Jewish- I'm not in the slightest anti-Semitic, just fervently anti-Zionist.

How did Ben Haim's antecedents end up in Israel Jan? Kicked out of Morocco for being Jewish I'd wager!

Did you know that virtually all the Jews were kicked out of North Africa in the 1950's? Their property and family wealth was confiscated.

They were put on the first boat to the only place that was willing to accept them...Scotland.

I'm joking of course. It was actually Israel, funnily enough. Scotland you see wasn't throwing its doors open to hundreds of thousands of Sephardic Jews at the time.

That's why it's such a bog hole of an economic basket case.

1. Abu Dhabi, along with many others, doesn't recognise Israel- … That doesn't make them anti-Jewish (what anti-Semitic means) it makes them anti-Zionist.

Sorry but I don't subscribe to your disingenuous cant about the Arab states being anti Israeli, rather than anti Jewish.

Jan, if you have any doubts as to the above do a google search for the now-defunct Zayed Centre for Coordination and Follow Up to see what the Abu Dhabi royal family thinks about Jewish people.

The same goes for the Saudi funded Madrassahs and mosques the world over (including Blackburn), that equate Zionism with all Jews. Was it a coincidence that the 11th September hijackers chose that very obvious symbol of world Jewry – the Manhattan skyline - as their primary focus for the opening volley of the Islamist Holy War against the West?

2. Name me one other religion which has a homeland. (Jew not being a nationality but a religion).

Well they have their own language, history and religion. The vast majority of the world's Jews choose to express their identity through nationalism and peoplehood and are Zionist. If that's not a distinct nationality I don't know what is.

Even under English law Judaism is constructed as both 'faith' and 'race' (e.g. see law of charitable trusts), as opposed to Islam, which is not.

3. The "invention" of Israel was a guilt-sop by the Brits and Americans who could have stopped the genocide in Nazi Germany years before, but didn't.

You should spend less time watching 'Strictly Come Dancing' and read a few history books.

Actually partition was accepted by the Jews (as the Israelis were then called) prior to the declaration of the State of Israel, under the auspices of the UN in 1947. When the Jewish State subsequently declared its independence it was immediately attacked by Pan Arab forces. The Arabs rejected out of hand any '2-state solution'. They lost.

Leaving Genesis aside, Israel wasn't 'invented' Jan.

Despite the best efforts of the British Colonial Office (and the rabidly anti-Semitic Foreign Secretary of the time Ernest Bevin), Great Britain did all in its power to hinder fleeing Jewish refugees from entering the fledgling Jewish state. Likewise, during WWII, Roosevelt was hostile to the idea of the Jewish homeland. Only after President Truman's belated stubbornness overrode the active hostility of the State Department did America finally give its backing.

4. Notice the homeland was not put in Europe, but taken from an already poor country, Palestine. And that one act is the reason for all of the unrest in the world today.

Let's get back to the point of Anti Euro Smiths original post (sadly minus the trademark banner headline).

Ben Haim is not from Europe (see first sentence above). Actually his family was probably expelled from Spain during the Inquisition but that's another story.

5. If Israel didn't exisit (sic), the Palestinians would not be oppressed (sic), the rest of the Islamic world wouldn't be up in arms, and there wouldn't be a war.

By your logic, all Australians should return to England, leaving the entire Australian continent free for the Aboriginals to go on walkabout. The United States should be vacated save for the Native Indians who could once again roam unmolested in search of water buffalo. Iranian Shias would walk hand-in-hand with Iraqi Sunnis. Han Chinese would refrain from persecuting Tibetans. Hutus would hug Tutsis and Celtic and Rangers would renounce sectarianism.

I bet every morning, some poor dispossessed black Christian Darfurian must wake up in some godforsaken patch of desert in southern Sudan, look out of the tent and say to himself… 'Blow me; if Israel didn't exist we wouldn't be facing genocide by those nice Arab chaps from the north'.

6. I'm with Abu Dhabi on this.

Jan, would you boycott Ewood should we sign Ben Haim?

In that case what about Tugay? Turkey has an appalling human rights record, has never accepted that there was an Armenian genocide (Turkey caused it) and has suppressed its Kurdishs minority without mercy.

Would you support a similar Abu Dhabi excoriation of Jo? After all, he was happy to accept the Russian rouble from a country that brutally annexed parts of Georgia, carpet bombed Grozny until nothing was left standing and is now holding Europe to ransom over its supply of gas through Ukraine?

Why single out Ben Haim?

7. And a lot of my friends are Jewish- I'm not in the slightest anti-Semitic, just fervently anti-Zionist.

I get it! You're certainly not anti-Semitic. Certainly not! That would be ridiculous!

You love Maureen Lipman in those BT ads and have seen the Sound of Music at least 14 times. Rumour has it that you've even been seen skulking out of the ODEON cinema with Mattyboy666 dressed as a nuns!

Just keep repeating over and over again that standard disclaimer of the true anti-Semite. "… a lot of my friends are Jewish …". You might just convince yourself at least.

8. Sport and politics eh Jan?

"…In light of the result, we have made one of the best achievements of Palestinian commando action…The choice of the Olympics, from purely propagandistic viewpoint, was 100 per cent successful…" (Statement by Black September following the murder of eleven Israeli Olympic athletes in Munich in 1972).

[leftfooter]

I don't recognise the illegal occupation of Palestine, that doesn't make me a racist. I have many Jewish friends. I don't have time for Zionists though.

I can see you you now Mattybaby, under the the Spiral, huddling from the rain in your army surplus combat fatigues, clutching a pile of dog-eared 'Socialist Worker' newspapers, as an indifferent, uncaring reactionary public walks by...(sigh)

[47er]

How did Ben Haim's antecedents end up in Israel Jan? Kicked out of Morocco for being Jewish I'd wager!

Did you know that virtually all the Jews were kicked out of North Africa in the 1950's? Their property and family wealth was confiscated.

They were put on the first boat to the only place that was willing to accept them...Scotland.

I'm joking of course. It was actually Israel, funnily enough. Scotland you see wasn't throwing its doors open to hundreds of thousands of Sephardic Jews at the time.

That's why it's such a bog hole of an economic basket case.

1. Abu Dhabi, along with many others, doesn't recognise Israel- … That doesn't make them anti-Jewish (what anti-Semitic means) it makes them anti-Zionist.

Sorry but I don't subscribe to your disingenuous cant about the Arab states being anti Israeli, rather than anti Jewish.

There are no 100% rights and wrongs in all this but surely no-one doubts that the creation of Israel was the direct outcome of the Holocaust. The Western nations forced a settlement on Arabs who had no connection with that catastrophe and Palastinians, who'd lived on their land for hundreds of years were forced out. And the conflict has never ceased since. The Jews should have been given Bavaria. Would have been more just.

[John]

Hughes should not be talking in so much depth about other clubs players contracts. Not very ethical.

[thenodrog]

Abu Dhabi, along with many others, doesn't recognise that Israel- a country invented in 1945- should exist. That doesn't make them anti-Jewish (what anti-Semitic means) it makes them anti-Zionist.

I don't pretend to understand the history of the middle east but imo the only way out of the present impasse is to look forward and not backward. I doubt they ever will but the only way forward for a peaceable Middle East imo is for the Arab states to actually recognise the state of Israel and not be so stubborn in denying the Israeli's what really is a tiny scrap of land in comparison to the land under Arab control as their homeland. Lets be honest most of the arab states are only johnny cum lately's themselves aren't they? But is thios likley to happen? Is it hell! The Israeli's seek nothing more than the area that they currently hold whereas we all must know the world of islam is expansionist in the extreme.

Whether we were right or wrong in helping form the state of Israel is largely irrelevent, Israel does exist and it appears to be flourishing despite all the obstacles provided by it's neighbours.

[tony gale's mic]

I don't pretend to understand the history of the middle east but imo the only way out of the present impasse is to look forward and not backward. I doubt they ever will but the only way forward for a peaceable Middle East imo is for the Arab states to actually recognise the state of Israel and not be so stubborn in denying the Israeli's what really is a tiny scrap of land in comparison to the land under Arab control as their homeland. Lets be honest most of the arab states are only johnny cum lately's themselves aren't they? But is thios likley to happen? Is it hell! The Israeli's seek nothing more than the area that they currently hold whereas we all must know the world of islam is expansionist in the extreme.

Whether we were right or wrong in helping form the state of Israel is largely irrelevent, Israel does exist and it appears to be flourishing despite all the obstacles provided by it's neighbours.

I wouldn't say it's largely irrelevant at all. It's crucial to understanding why the Palestinians are so aggrieved, their grandparents and parents still remember being forcibly removed from areas they had occupied for generations just to form the state of Israel. They only seek to claim back the land they held prior to being removed.

Don't get me wrong, there's many unsavoury elements on the Palestinian side and no side is 100% in the right or the wrong. But the Palestinians have made several concillatory noises too. They've started to accept a two-state solution:

http://middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?num=188&a=82

Which would still be a fair climbdown as they'd be letting Israel have much of the land that was taken from them. But the actions of Israel are truly disgusting at times. For every Israeli killed around 70 Palestinians are killed. The Israelis didn't like HAMAS coming to power in Palestine, they blockaded the Gaza strip, denying essential supplies and, ironically, turning it into a ghetto a la Warsaw etc. Hamas fired rocket attacks as a result which killed around a dozen people. Israel have launched attacks on the Gaza strip which have killed around 800 people and counting.

There's no way you can defend this kind of behaviour.

[PAFELL]

Wrong terminology. The term you're looking for is anti-Zionist, and there is a WORLD of difference. Jewish people can enter Abu Dhabi with no problem, it's Israelis that can't. Abu Dhabi, along with many others, doesn't recognise that Israel- a country invented in 1945- should exist. That doesn't make them anti-Jewish (what anti-Semitic means) it makes them anti-Zionist.

Name me one other religion which has a homeland. (Jew not being a nationality but a religion). The "invention" of Israel was a guilt-sop by the Brits and Americans who could have stopped the genocide in Nazi Germany years before, but didn't. Notice the homeland was not put in Europe, but taken from an already poor country, Palestine. And that one act is the reason for all of the unrest in the world today. If Israel didn't exisit, the Palestinians would not be opressed, the rest of the Islamic world wouldn't be up in arms, and there wouldn't be a war.

I'm with Abu Dhabi on this. And a lot of my friends are Jewish- I'm not in the slightest anti-Semitic, just fervently anti-Zionist.

The Palestinians were forced out of the homes in order to create Israel - as you say there wouldn't be this trouble now was it not for the Brits and USA guilt trip - oh an Rome, they do what was going on during ww2.

[thenodrog]

There's no way you can defend this kind of behaviour.

So by definition you are defending the actions of Hamas missile launchers during the cease fire? And now I guess you must also be defending the missiles arrowing in on Israel from the Lebanon?

Do you not realise that swaying public opinion the world over and fostering attitudes like yours is meat and drink to Hamas? The reason they attack from schools and hospitals etc is so that the Israelis WILL slaughter dozens of innocents in reprisal and that the shocking media clips of desperately wounded innocents will feature all around the globe garnering sympathy and support for their cause?

May I ask you TGM how it feels to be a victim of the Hamas propaganda machine?

[thenodrog]

The Palestinians were forced out of the homes in order to create Israel - as you say there wouldn't be this trouble now was it not for the Brits and USA guilt trip - oh an Rome, they do what was going on during ww2.

History eh Pafell? Well in that case it's the Egyptians fault for being so careless and letting their slaves escape! All this unpleasantness could so easily have been avoided eh?

[tony gale's mic]

So by definition you are defending the actions of Hamas missile launchers during the cease fire? And now I guess you must also be defending the missiles arrowing in on Israel from the Lebanon?

Do you not realise that swaying public opinion the world over and fostering attitudes like yours is meat and drink to Hamas? The reason they attack from schools and hospitals etc is so that the Israelis WILL slaughter dozens of innocents in reprisal and that the shocking media clips of desperately wounded innocents will feature all around the globe garnering sympathy and support for their cause?

May I ask you TGM how it feels to be a victim of the Hamas propaganda machine?

Theno I'm not a fan of Hamas, far from it. Many of their methods are abhorrent. I'm not siding with them, I'm siding with the Palestinian people. They're the real victims in this. So are the relatively minute number of Israelis who've also died as a result of this conflict, I hasten to add.

You and me both know that if there's any conflict involving Muslims, your natural reaction would be to side against them.

I'm not defending the actions of the missile launchers, but Israel blocked off most of the supplies into the Gaza Strip, denying food supplies, medical care etc to an area which was already massively deprived thanks to the Palestinian people having to flee there having been kicked out of their homes to create the state of Israel. And I think the methods of much of the Arab world do aggravate things greatly. But, on the other hand, with the Western powers so firmly behind Israel, it's not hard to see where these frustrations arise from.

[thenodrog]

Theno I'm not a fan of Hamas, far from it. Many of their methods are abhorrent. I'm not siding with them, I'm siding with the Palestinian people. They're the real victims in this. So are the relatively minute number of Israelis who've also died as a result of this conflict, I hasten to add.

You and me both know that if there's any conflict involving Muslims, your natural reaction would be to side against them.

1. Garnering worldwide criticism and opposition to Israel is the immediate aim of Hamas.

2. The Palestinian people heaped trouble on themselves by voting them in. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4650300.stm

"Hamas is currently maintaining a ceasefire, but remains committed to the armed struggle, the destruction of Israel and retaliatory attacks on Israeli civilians."

Isreals hard line is hardly suprising is it?

3. Guess so, and a completely natural and justified reaction cos every time I pick up a paper I note that islamic expansionism and intransigence is behind the majority of the troubles / conflicts / atrocities in the world today.

[DeadlyDirk]

This article from the Roque thread disgusts me firstly because once again it's spreading rumours that Roque is desperate to go but more so with Mark Hughes. I've also just saw his interview on SSN where he mentions half a dozen players they have bid for where previously he has stated it's unfair and unprofessional to talk about players from other clubs. Fine now though is it Mark?

What really disgusts me is him talking so freely about Roque's release clause which is supposed to be private. Now of course it can't be helped that he is aware of the release clause if it was in place when he was at the club but that does not mean he should be spouting it off as public knowledge. That should remain in the Man City camp and is highly unprofessional of Mark Hughes. Other clubs (Not that I expect them to be interested to at the price, but that's not the point) could now be alerted to make a bid as they know his asking price, well at least his asking price in the summer.

They know how much we want for him, either put up or shut up.

[philipl]

Manchester City were an unprofessional showeer of scum in the summer and they are an unprofessional shower of scum now.

Far from civilising them, Hughes has sunk down to their level.

Great shame but the guy looks a busted flush in the "next great thing" young manager stakes.

[tony gale's mic]

1. Garnering worldwide criticism and opposition to Israel is the immediate aim of Hamas.

2. The Palestinian people heaped trouble on themselves by voting them in. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4650300.stm

"Hamas is currently maintaining a ceasefire, but remains committed to the armed struggle, the destruction of Israel and retaliatory attacks on Israeli civilians."

Isreals hard line is hardly suprising is it?

3. Guess so, and a completely natural and justified reaction cos every time I pick up a paper I note that islamic expansionism and intransigence is behind the majority of the troubles / conflicts / atrocities in the world today.

1. That's extremely poor logic. If some skinhead today started saying their goal was the destruction of all Muslims everywhere, conducted violent attacks on Muslims etc, then would I say your current position was pandering to their propaganda machine? Israel's actions are what make me draw criticism and opposition to them. Hamas are murderers too, although not on as wide a scale, and I would never say I back them.

2. It was a vote borne out of frustration. Let me ask you this Theno, as you do seem less able than many to put yourself in the shoes of others. Imagine if you lived in the Gaza Strip. It's 70% made up of those who were kicked out of their homes back in '48 and their descendants. People who lived in relative prosperity, who had lived there for generations, suddenly forced by the Zionists, America and the UK to live in this squalid ghetto. If we exclude places like Singapore, Macau, Hong Kong and Monaco where the high population is a marker of prosperity, it is the most densely populated territory on earth, 4 times more densely populated than the nearest comparable country in the list.

What would your reactions be as you saw the country next door, who kicked you out of your rightful home, suddenly prosper as it became awash with Western funding, while all the while doing so on the land you once occupied, while you were forced to live in this hell hole. Would you be happy? What would your feelings to the West be as they kick you out and then take the side of the country occupying your area? You'd be very angry, and then the more violent factions of your society would unite to form an armed resistance. This is hardly unique to Muslims - see ETA, the IRA etc. Only the situation for the Palestinians were much worse - noone in Northern Ireland or the Basque country had to live in conditions anywhere near how people in Gaza have to live.

Now you write off this injustice as irrelevant, and this seems to form much of your argument but it's not irrelevant. It is a gross, gross injustice. If you still were living there, day in day out, while the Israelis were blockading the borders as they are doing now, cutting off the supply of food and medical supplies to a critically low point, further adding insult to injury.

I cannot support HAMAS or condone their actions, as they are murderers. Their actions over the years have helped to regress the peace process and drive international sympathy away from the Palestinian cause. However, I can see how the oppressed folk of Palestine can see their radicalism as the only hope for them as they live in these conditions. But the Israeli government kill innocents too, on a far, far greater scale than anything have done. Far greater than many of the Islamic terrorist groups combined and yet you condone their actions. And you cannot - nay will not see what makes the Palestinian people feel this way because you refuse to believe that anyone but the Muslims are in the wrong.

3. It is not natural and justified. Whatever way you look at it, it's never that 100% black and white either way. I stand more in support of the Palestinian cause, much more in support but I can see that the actions of HAMAS over the years have brought the process backwards and they have blood on their hands too. But I can see why people see them as one last ray of hope. You cannot do the same, you place the blame squarely on the Muslims for all these problems, without realising that had the British not signed the Balfour Declaration, had the Western forces not kicked the Palestinians out of their own homes and made them live in squalour, that would have removed the root cause for much of these problems.

[colbert]

Hughes will loose his job at the end of the season, if not before.

He is just not in the Mould of the new owners imagination. look back on this post and smile soon.........

[tony gale's mic]

Hughes will loose his job at the end of the season, if not before.

He is just not in the Mould of the new owners imagination. look back on this post and smile soon.........

No offence but you're hardly Nostradamus with that prediction...

[colbert]

No offence but you're hardly Nostradamus with that prediction...

i never said i was, but thanks for pointing it out, i really thought i was!!!!

I feel really gutted now!!

[Mc Love]

I am loving how everyone is holding Citeh to ransom! Its Hughes own fault!

[colbert]

i know, he is gonna come out and say he has been bullied

[Paul]

I presume we can look forward to the thread being re-titled?