[Archived] Match Preview: Manchester United (october 4, Ewood Park, 17:30)

[Paul]

Thanks Tony I hadn't seen that interview. The one I was referring to was on Sky Sports, the channel that comes with Freeview?

[brfcs5359]

For some reason, clubs like Newcastle, Villa, Spurs, Everton have had really poor results against the Big 4 in recent years.

On the other hand, Blackburn along with maybe Wham and Boro have had the best results against them if you take the last 5-6 seasons into consideration. So, a few defeats shouldnt be too worrying........

What would be worrying is slacking off, which seemed to be the case a number of times during our games against Arsenal and Manu Utd.....

We should be 100 % commited, but then again our 6-2 and 3-0 (twice) against Arsenal came in the days of us being "bully-boys" and playing "in your face" football

Great last point. In your face football.... add Larrisa, a team of insurance salesman and unemployed window cleaners... I could go back to Trellebourgs... Thats why Ince is right to play them 'at football' rather than rely totally on kicking them up the backside for 90 minutes.

Ince understands that.... Hughes and Souness never did and probably never will.

[thenodrog]

Care in the community has a lot to answer for.

[BuckyRover]

Care in the community has a lot to answer for.

A frank admission from thenodrog about his unscheduled release into the community

[thenodrog]

A frank admission from thenodrog about his unscheduled release into the community

Aha! The king of wit, backchat and repartee makes an appearance. Very funny bucky...... I'll remember to have a good laugh later about your intended humour............. when I've a bit more time on my hands.

[Parsonblue]

Great last point. In your face football.... add Larrisa, a team of insurance salesman and unemployed window cleaners... I could go back to Trellebourgs... Thats why Ince is right to play them 'at football' rather than rely totally on kicking them up the backside for 90 minutes.

Ince understands that.... Hughes and Souness never did and probably never will.

Which is why Hughes and Souness were a success and got results against the top four while Ince has suffered two comprehensive defeats so far against the big guns. Still it has been entertaining watching Arsenal and United play their football completely unchallenged at Ewood Park. I'm just not quite sure if this is meant the be the entertaining football that Ince was talking about.

[Rover4ever]

Which is why Hughes and Souness were a success and got results against the top four while Ince has suffered two comprehensive defeats so far against the big guns.

Hughes sure got results against the top 4 but had his fair share of defeats as well, Ince has played twice, yes thats just 2 times, lets judge after he has played 5-6 games with the top 4.

I still remember one season when we beat Man Utd Arsenal and Chelsea but lost to bottom placed Sunderland (twice), as well as the other 2 relegated teams.........

[Tris]

Which is why Hughes and Souness were a success and got results against the top four while Ince has suffered two comprehensive defeats so far against the big guns. Still it has been entertaining watching Arsenal and United play their football completely unchallenged at Ewood Park. I'm just not quite sure if this is meant the be the entertaining football that Ince was talking about.

Mark Hughes' first 5 fixtures against MU + Chelsea + Arsenal did not produce a single victory. Rovers failed to score a single goal, and conceded 9 (Chelsea lost 4-0 and 1-0, MU drew 0-0 and Arse lost 1-0 and 3-0 (FAC)).

In the next 5 such fixtures, there was a single win (2-1 v MU) and the aggregate defeat against them in the League Cup (1-1 draw and 2-1 defeat), and defeats to Arsenal conceding 3 goals and Chelsea conceding another 4.

So 1/10 for Mark Hughes. 0/2 for Ince so far, with 8 more chances to catch up!

And for those advocating "in your face" tactics, those 10 fixtures were most definitely played out using such tactics - to such an extent that 4 years on Rovers still haven't shaken off the bad reputation. In contrast, the 4-3 win over MU later in that second season was achieved with a more refined tactical style and proper football.

{I've left Liverpool out because they were hardly the team they are today, however for the record Hughes managed 2 draws and 2 defeats in his first 4 fixtures against them}

[BuckyRover]

Mark Hughes' first 5 fixtures against MU + Chelsea + Arsenal did not produce a single victory. Rovers failed to score a single goal, and conceded 9 (Chelsea lost 4-0 and 1-0, MU drew 0-0 and Arse lost 1-0 and 3-0 (FAC)).

In the next 5 such fixtures, there was a single win (2-1 v MU) and the aggregate defeat against them in the League Cup (1-1 draw and 2-1 defeat), and defeats to Arsenal conceding 3 goals and Chelsea conceding another 4.

So 1/10 for Mark Hughes. 0/2 for Ince so far, with 8 more chances to catch up!

And for those advocating "in your face" tactics, those 10 fixtures were most definitely played out using such tactics - to such an extent that 4 years on Rovers still haven't shaken off the bad reputation. In contrast, the 4-3 win over MU later in that second season was achieved with a more refined tactical style and proper football.

{I've left Liverpool out because they were hardly the team they are today, however for the record Hughes managed 2 draws and 2 defeats in his first 4 fixtures against them}

How dare you present facts in such a logical manner!

Are you trying to say that it actually took time for Hughes to refine his tactial style against Premiership teams? Having to play them a few times before getting it "right"?

There is no place for such facts on this messageboard.

[CrazyIvan]

Someone will come back with the comment that this is the same team and we should play the same way etc etc. Truth is that this is not the same team, it's a different manager and there are different players playing in different positions. New manager, new tactics, new team equals learning curve for everybody and it is still early on in that curve.

[waggy]

Sorry but did we not beat them 4 - 3 in 2005 (I think) with Ronaldo, Rooney, Van Nistelrooy and Ferdinand playing? Mind you, the attitude and commitment was spot on that night.

the financial gap between rovers and utd was narrower 3 years ago,do you realise 600,000 thais have manure credit cards

[LDRover]

the financial gap between rovers and utd was narrower 3 years ago,do you realise 600,000 thais have manure credit cards

On the pitch it wasn't waggy, that's all I care about.

People are missing the point on here when they talk about tactics, I thought closing down the opposition and getting tackles in, especially in midfield, was a basic requirement not a tactic.

By the way, just been talking to a Man U supporting supplier who couldn't believe how we rolled over on Saturday, said he'd never associated us with such abject surrender before and that they had possibly their weakest midfield of the season on show.

[BRFC95]

I thought closing down the opposition and getting tackles in, especially in midfield, was a basic requirement not a tactic.

How long have you though that and what's it like to have been wrong for so long?

By the way, just been talking to a Man U supporting supplier who couldn't believe how we rolled over on Saturday, said he'd never associated us with such abject surrender before and that they had possibly their weakest midfield of the season on show.

We had our weakest midfield of the season on show too.

[T4E]

How long have you though that and what's it like to have been wrong for so long?

Tackling is a tactic? Are you serious? Looks like you could probably answer your own question there.

[den]

People are missing the point on here when they talk about tactics, I thought closing down the opposition and getting tackles in, especially in midfield, was a basic requirement not a tactic.

You mean like all the best sides do LD? [including how Man Utd did it to us on Saturday].

[LDRover]

How long have you though that and what's it like to have been wrong for so long?

We had our weakest midfield of the season on show too.

That'd be the same midfield who'd won two in a row then.

So you're happy with us pretty much giving up then. Good on yer.

Oh and by the way, name me a team, any team that doesn't close down or tackle. Then maybe I'll tell you how it feels to have been wrong for so long.

[Parsonblue]

Mark Hughes' first 5 fixtures against MU + Chelsea + Arsenal did not produce a single victory. Rovers failed to score a single goal, and conceded 9 (Chelsea lost 4-0 and 1-0, MU drew 0-0 and Arse lost 1-0 and 3-0 (FAC)).

In the next 5 such fixtures, there was a single win (2-1 v MU) and the aggregate defeat against them in the League Cup (1-1 draw and 2-1 defeat), and defeats to Arsenal conceding 3 goals and Chelsea conceding another 4.

So 1/10 for Mark Hughes. 0/2 for Ince so far, with 8 more chances to catch up!

And for those advocating "in your face" tactics, those 10 fixtures were most definitely played out using such tactics - to such an extent that 4 years on Rovers still haven't shaken off the bad reputation. In contrast, the 4-3 win over MU later in that second season was achieved with a more refined tactical style and proper football.

{I've left Liverpool out because they were hardly the team they are today, however for the record Hughes managed 2 draws and 2 defeats in his first 4 fixtures against them}

But then again Hughes didn't take over a team that was 7th in the League. Hughes had to rebuild a team from scratch more or less. He didn't have the luxury of inheriting players who had achieved three successive top ten finishes. I don't make the point to put Ince down but do feel that there are some who want to rewrite history by putting Hughes down and building up Ince at every opportunity.

In my opinion Hughes was one of the best managers that this club has had. He built a side that had a reputation for making life difficult for the 'big boys' and if the media want to give us a bad reputation because under Hughes we refused to roll over for the top teams then so be it. I would rather have the reputation and points rather than be patted on the head and told that we played really well but simply aren't good enough to win points from the top teams.

I hope that Ince can build upon what Hughes achieved but I fear he will have to adopt a more pragmatic approach to games, particularly against the top clubs. Like it or not "in your face" tactics have proved to be successful for smaller clubs like the Rovers when facing the likes of Arsenal and United. Hopefully, the coaching courses will prove beneficial to Ince and enhance his tactical thinking.

[brfcs5359]

But then again Hughes didn't take over a team that was 7th in the League. Hughes had to rebuild a team from scratch more or less. He didn't have the luxury of inheriting players who had achieved three successive top ten finishes. I don't make the point to put Ince down but do feel that there are some who want to rewrite history by putting Hughes down and building up Ince at every opportunity.

In my opinion Hughes was one of the best managers that this club has had. He built a side that had a reputation for making life difficult for the 'big boys' and if the media want to give us a bad reputation because under Hughes we refused to roll over for the top teams then so be it. I would rather have the reputation and points rather than be patted on the head and told that we played really well but simply aren't good enough to win points from the top teams.

I hope that Ince can build upon what Hughes achieved but I fear he will have to adopt a more pragmatic approach to games, particularly against the top clubs. Like it or not "in your face" tactics have proved to be successful for smaller clubs like the Rovers when facing the likes of Arsenal and United. Hopefully, the coaching courses will prove beneficial to Ince and enhance his tactical thinking.

With a midfield of Emerton, Reid, Tugay & Pederson yes he bloody did inherit a team. They were all Souness signings that Hughes kept faith with for 4 full years! Hughes handed Ince a knackered out Tugay aged 38 and a team most on here said had several concerning weaknesses. Under Souness we won a trophy and qualified for Europe twice, saved relegation to the Johnson Paints Trophy Leagues and won promotion.

[Tris]

But then again Hughes didn't take over a team that was 7th in the League. Hughes had to rebuild a team from scratch more or less. He didn't have the luxury of inheriting players who had achieved three successive top ten finishes. I don't make the point to put Ince down but do feel that there are some who want to rewrite history by putting Hughes down and building up Ince at every opportunity.

Neither did Ince - two of the best players b*ggered off. Rebuild from scratch?? That's you re-writing history I'm afraid. And while there were only 2 out of 3 top ten finishes for the team Hughes inherited - the one miss was only by 6 points. No history re-written there.

I don't want to put Hughes down and his overall record is great - but some perspective has to be put in when a large group of posters are still choosing to belittle Ince at every single opportunity. If he can't be benchmarked against his predecessor then it's a poor do - or it's revealing things people don't want to see revealed because it's actually giving Ince breathing space rather than ramming him in to the ground again.

And the fact remains that Hughes won ONE out of his first TEN games against the best opposition

[den]

Tris, - your defence of all things Blackburn Rovers, is admirable. It really is. How did this conversation get drawn into a comparison of results against the top four though? I don't recall reading too many complaints about Saturday's scoreline, just the performance and Ince's after match comments.

92er said it, - last Saturday's performance against Man Utd was the worst he'd [and me] seen since Utd scored 5 second half goals against us at Ewood in the sixties. The two home games against MU and Arsenal could well have shown a goals ratio of 0 - 12! That's the truth isn't it?

Now you're going to call me anti Ince and to get behind the club. I get behind the club every time I watch them, but that doesn't stop me having an opinion on what's on show. I'm NOT against PI. I really hope he'll make us into what he wants, an attacking, winning side. It's difficult to defend the displays in the two games we're talking about though, isn't it?

What's your take on the actual performance on Saturday?

[JAL]

Tris, - your defence of all things Blackburn Rovers, is admirable. It really is. How did this conversation get drawn into a comparison of results against the top four though? I don't recall reading too many complaints about Saturday's scoreline, just the performance and Ince's after match comments.

92er said it, - last Saturday's performance against Man Utd was the worst he'd [and me] seen since Utd scored 5 second half goals against us at Ewood in the sixties. The two home games against MU and Arsenal could well have shown a goals ratio of 0 - 12! That's the truth isn't it?

Now you're going to call me anti Ince and to get behind the club. I get behind the club every time I watch them, but that doesn't stop me having an opinion on what's on show. I'm NOT against PI. I really hope he'll make us into what he wants, an attacking, winning side. It's difficult to defend the displays in the two games we're talking about though, isn't it?

What's your take on the actual performance on Saturday?

You've got him there den - he probably didnt go

[Tris]

Tris, - your defence of all things Blackburn Rovers, is admirable. It really is. How did this conversation get drawn into a comparison of results against the top four though? I don't recall reading too many complaints about Saturday's scoreline, just the performance and Ince's after match comments.

92er said it, - last Saturday's performance against Man Utd was the worst he'd [and me] seen since Utd scored 5 second half goals against us at Ewood in the sixties. The two home games against MU and Arsenal could well have shown a goals ratio of 0 - 12! That's the truth isn't it?

Now you're going to call me anti Ince and to get behind the club. I get behind the club every time I watch them, but that doesn't stop me having an opinion on what's on show. I'm NOT against PI. I really hope he'll make us into what he wants, an attacking, winning side. It's difficult to defend the displays in the two games we're talking about though, isn't it?

What's your take on the actual performance on Saturday?

It's about perspective Den, and this MB badly needs some.

The top 4 comparison has come about becuase flavour of the week this week is to beat Ince with that particular stick, not just on this thread. The same people who used to say he hasn't got a clue what he's doing full stop are now saying he hasn't got a clue what he's doing when faced with the best teams in the division. Well, let's see how his record against them looks after 10 such games - will he improve on Hughes' single win??

Saturday wasn't great - it's a shame Derbyshire didn't take his chance and it's a shame the referee missed the elbow into Jason Brown. It wasn't the calamity that is being portrayed though - it was 2-0 bad, not collapse of civilisation bad.

I am defending Paul Ince on the MB because he isn't getting a fair hearing from the majority of vocal posters. Philip called the Daily Mail story a "damning disgrace of the Ince regime" yesterday, one illustration of the unfair treatment Ince is getting.

I don't think he's the best thing since sliced bread, and I have reservations about him from his playing days. I watched aghast from the stands at Wembley in June 1996 when the (then) "guvnor" sat in the centre circle with his back to the action and condemned Gareth Southgate to the penalty miss. I still maintain Ince should have been taking a pen, and that picture of him shirking his responsibility is the image that came into my head when I heard he had been appointed Rovers manager.

However 12 years is a long time for a person to learn, grow up and develop. Ince needs a fair crack of the whip as our manager and from me he will get one. For many on this MB (not including you Den), he has been lined up to be shot at from before he even got the job, and that just isn't right.

So for the sake of perspective (and to help stop Blackburn becoming another Bridgend) I try to add some balance to the debate.

You've got him there den - he probably didnt go

Wrong again arsehole. Which isn't a surprise.

[imy9]

Well said Tris, an excellent post.

Ince has played two games against the top 4 sides (Interestingly enough we actually beat the side that finished 5th last year) and lost but you can judge his record against Hughes at the end of the season, hughes did win one out of ten.

Yes the performance was poor but this is a team in transition and as I stated before I expect a positive response against Bolton

[Parsonblue]

With a midfield of Emerton, Reid, Tugay & Pederson yes he bloody did inherit a team. They were all Souness signings that Hughes kept faith with for 4 full years! Hughes handed Ince a knackered out Tugay aged 38 and a team most on here said had several concerning weaknesses. Under Souness we won a trophy and qualified for Europe twice, saved relegation to the Johnson Paints Trophy Leagues and won promotion.

So it is now the fault of Mark Hughes that Tugay is 38! It shouldn't be a problem anyway now that Keith Andrews has arrived to be our new midfield general!

On a serious note, with respect, you appear to have missed the point I was trying to make. I was merely stating that I find it strange that history is now being rewritten with Hughes being castigated while in some quarters Ince can do no wrong. Surely you cannot argue against the fact that Hughes achieved two seasons of European football on limited resources and kept the club competitive in the Premier League.

The task that faces Ince is to build upon this achievement. Ultimately, I can't believe that there is anyone on this messageboard who doesn't want him to be successful. If he is successful the Rovers are successful and that's what everyone wants.

However, it is possible to support the club and support Ince and yet question the tactics, signings and performances in certain matches. No manager is ever going to be right with every decision they make. As I said earlier, although he was not my first choice, I have become increasingly impressed with certain aspects of his management. However, I still reserve the right to voice an opinion - as I have done with all managers since Jack Marshall - when I believe he gets something wrong. I honestly believe that we adopted the wrong approach on Saturday against United. That doesn't make me anti-Ince it just makes me a supporter with an opinion! Ultimately, everyone who posts on this messageboard has an opinion or there would be no need for such boards.

[gumboots]

The task that faces Ince is to build upon this achievement. Ultimately, I can't believe that there is anyone on this messageboard who doesn't want him to be successful. If he is successful the Rovers are successful and that's what everyone wants.

Unfortunately it does seem that there are those who would like to see Ince fail so badly that they don't seem to think what would be the possible consequences. It may not be true and I may be misreading what some have said but I do find some people's dislike of Ince and all he is trying (and sometimes failing) to do beyond what I consider reasonable. I have no complaints whatsoever if you want to say he got this wrong in my opinion, or he should imo have done this, played this player or whatever. That can be discussed sensibly and rationally and whilst I might not agree, I can accept what you want to say and how you decided that. But there are those, and we all know who they are, who have taken their dislike of this managerial appointment too far and do not give credit where credit is due. I was hugely disappointed with the performance on Saturday, but it came on the back of some better performances and some wins that I feel might not have happened in previous seasons. I liked what Hughes did here and I'm not trying to rewrite any of his achievements or failures. i just want people to be fair to Ince, who appears to have grown up quite a lot through his couple of years in the lower leagues where he seems to have shown no signs of the attitude that made Ferguson call him a big time Charlie, but seems to have got stuck in and done jobs that many of his stature would have found beneath them