[Archived] Two-tier Premier League?

[Hughesy]

Gartside at Notlob wants a 2 tier premier league with basically Premier League 1 and Premier League 2 both holding 18 teams.

Link Here

He says its essential so teams can survive in the financial climate.

Personally I think, im happy with how it is at the moment and I think 20 teams is the right balance. The only gripe is that the same teams win the league, but that I dont think can be changed.

Also what about the other 8 teams that are currently within the two leagues that he proposes to be dropped to 18 each??

So what do people think?

[Hasta]

Is that not just like saying we want more cash available to the Championship sides. He says it is to stop teams going down from the Prem going bust due to the drop in income. Would teams who then get relegated from Prem Division 2 not go bust anyway due to the drop in income ?

[novella]

Gartside at Notlob wants a 2 tier premier league with basically Premier League 1 and Premier League 2 both holding 18 teams.

Link Here

He says its essential so teams can survive in the financial climate.

Personally I think, im happy with how it is at the moment and I think 20 teams is the right balance. The only gripe is that the same teams win the league, but that I dont think can be changed.

Also what about the other 8 teams that are currently within the two leagues that he proposes to be dropped to 18 each??

So what do people think?

I dont think we should mess with the leagues any more. The set up at the moment is good. Dont mess with a good thing. Yeah we wont win the league but would teams prefer to win premier league 2 anyway?

[gumboots]

I dont think we should mess with the leagues any more. The set up at the moment is good. Dont mess with a good thing. Yeah we wont win the league but would teams prefer to win premier league 2 anyway?

If the league were rearranged according to league position at the end of the season it would make no difference to us initially anyway. We'd still be where we are now with no money but doing relatively well. I think Gartside is seeing the spectre of relegation looming over the Reebok this season and is trying to find a way of softening the blow. Why mess with what isn't really broken? Last year derby were and embarrassment but this year the promoted clubs don't look like the pushovers Derby were, and the league looks potentially better balanced. Still don't see anyone but the big 4 winning but the other places are up for grabs for teams that can be consistent.

[joey_big_nose]

I am in favour of anything that spreads the money more fairly and the gulf between the Prem and the Championship is much too large. But then problem is also the CL money which creates such an enormous gap between the teams in it and the teams without.

So if you spread more of the Prem money around the leagues then you would also widen the gulf massviely from fourth to fifth.

Bit of a rubbish situation.

[philipl]

Makes sense to me but I doubt there will be enough money in the next media deal for it to work.

[CrazyIvan]

In theory this might work but in practise I would say it is unlikely to ever go anywhere. Reducing the Premier League 1 by 2 teams would be easily achieved by not promoting 2 teams but what happens to the Championship? Does it get swallowed wholesale into the Premier League 2? If that is the case, what happens to the 6/8 teams that would need to be 'lost' from the Championship? Would they get absorbed into Football Leagues 1 and 2 making them 28 team leagues? Or would 8 teams need to be relegated out of League 2? Potentially they could create a third Football League to absorb the extra teams and maybe reduce the Footbasll Leagues to 18/20 teams as well.

Logistically it would be a nightmare. I can't honestly see the Premier League wanting to 'devalue' it's product by introducing a new league either although the spreading of the finances might make it more viable. The drop from Premier League 2 to Football League 1 could end up having the same financial impact as the drop from Premier League to Championship.

[philipl]

In theory this might work but in practise I would say it is unlikely to ever go anywhere. Reducing the Premier League 1 by 2 teams would be easily achieved by not promoting 2 teams but what happens to the Championship? Does it get swallowed wholesale into the Premier League 2? If that is the case, what happens to the 6/8 teams that would need to be 'lost' from the Championship? Would they get absorbed into Football Leagues 1 and 2 making them 28 team leagues? Or would 8 teams need to be relegated out of League 2? Potentially they could create a third Football League to absorb the extra teams and maybe reduce the Footbasll Leagues to 18/20 teams as well.

Logistically it would be a nightmare. I can't honestly see the Premier League wanting to 'devalue' it's product by introducing a new league either although the spreading of the finances might make it more viable. The drop from Premier League 2 to Football League 1 could end up having the same financial impact as the drop from Premier League to Championship.

As the relegation from league 2 is being determined by who is going bust and Altricham have been relegated three seasons running only to be saved by clubs above them going under, dropping 8 from league 2 into the Blue Square would make a huge amount of sense.

It might return the lower leagues to being football competitions.

Gartside's suggestion could well get supported- it will make space for the international club games. Prem 2 could come to Malta.

[ABBEY]

how about this for an original idea......divisions 1, 2 ,3 and 4!

[CrazyIvan]

how about this for an original idea......divisions 1, 2 ,3 and 4!

That's just too sensible!

[T4E]

There are way too many professional clubs in this country, a problem particularly evident in Lancashire and one of the driving forces behind the continued suggestion of Gordon United.

[MCMC1875]

There are way too many professional clubs in this country, a problem particularly evident in Lancashire and one of the driving forces behind the continued suggestion of Gordon United.

And why Stanley are the worst supported club in the league.

[Al]

The best way to make the bottom two divisions viable would be to return to the old 3rd Div. North and South.

Not so far to travel might boost the away support.

I do not believe that sharing the TV money with the Championship clubs is the way forward.

[thenodrog]

Fact is that as far as a competetive and evenly balanced division is concerned providing intrigue, angst and excitement for all fans the Championship is miles ahead of the Prem. One week toward the end of March only QPR knew definitely that they were playing in the same div this season. Hows that for keeping interest going? The Champions league format has turned the Prem into a copy of the scottish league where two teams dominate totally with only Abromovich being in place to form a welcome distraction. Truth is our season like the seasons of the 16 or so other clubs consists of initial fear until 40 points is reached and then finishing in crushing boredom. Virtually any change would be an improvement in many ways.

[brightonrover]

Something has to be done to make the Premiership more competitive but this isn't it.

[Majiball]

Fact is that as far as a competetive and evenly balanced division is concerned providing intrigue, angst and excitement for all fans the Championship is miles ahead of the Prem. One week toward the end of March only QPR knew definitely that they were playing in the same div this season. Hows that for keeping interest going? The Champions league format has turned the Prem into a copy of the scottish league where two teams dominate totally with only Abromovich being in place to form a welcome distraction. Truth is our season like the seasons of the 16 or so other clubs consists of initial fear until 40 points is reached and then finishing in crushing boredom. Virtually any change would be an improvement in many ways.

Dead right, the championship is far more competitive than the premiership. Its a pity its ended up like this but it was always going to. I do miss the days when teams came up shocked the lot of them and were still in the top 2 after Christmas.

TV money wise I think championship teams get around 1M per season does that even buy a championship level player? The coverage is awful, I'd be quite happy to see more especially on domestic TV.

The trouble is like TND said its too predictable now, Christ even winning one of the cups is almost mission impossible. Its all about money now the premier league has stolen football's soul.

[philipl]

Gartside repeats his call, urges support for for small town club owners and pushes for a salary cap

[jim mk2]

The most important issue is salaries - until something is done to cap wages (come in Mr Platini) the present imbalance between have and have-nots will continue.

Raw capitalism makes top-level sport uncompetitive and boring - even the Americans realise that.

[CrazyIvan]

Gartside repeats his call, urges support for for small town club owners and pushes for a salary cap

Having read that article he makes a very good point about having 14 foreign owners in the Premier League and the way that would affect voting. We would see so much less understanding of the English game with foreign owners seeking to make as much money as they can or decisions that take football away from the real fans, those that go week in week out. It can't really be good in the long term.

[DingleBaiter]

Agree that this idea has the right intentions, but is impractical and not the best solution to the perceived problem. Also agree that Gartside maybe has somewhat of a vested interest here, with the spectre of relegation. He can't be taken too seriously though given they've sold on themselves, so is it not just sour grapes they've only done it to someone less rich than the big 4?

I would like to see some element of better governance, with some tips taken from how the Yanks do it - to make it more of a level playing field, such as a salary cap. In reality, this is extremely unlikely due to being practically unworkable (mainly due to bias towards the 'big' clubs)

Then again, there is also the argument that capitalism is cyclical, and whilst the big clubs may get richer/stronger/dominant, other factors may level them in the long term.

Still think the City thing will blow up sooner rather than later, Spurs & Newcastle's supposed riches hasn't got them anywhere consistently, Liverpool's improvement on the pitch seems inversely proportional to their financial strength, United's debt will eventually take it's toll, with Arsenal probably looking the most solid in the long term (boardroom wranglings notwithstanding).

Hats off to Jack Walker once again - considering he's still (wrongly) blamed in a lot of quarters for starting all this off, one look at the infrastructure & operations at Ewood (off field) shows we were really ahead of the game in lots of ways, and will probably batten down the hatches and see all this bluster out.

[DingleBaiter]

Agree that this idea has the right intentions, but is impractical and not the best solution to the perceived problem. Also agree that Gartside maybe has somewhat of a vested interest here, with the spectre of relegation. He can't be taken too seriously though given they've sold on themselves, so is it not just sour grapes they've only done it to someone less rich than the big 4?

I would like to see some element of better governance, with some tips taken from how the Yanks do it - to make it more of a level playing field, such as a salary cap. In reality, this is extremely unlikely due to being practically unworkable.

Then again, there is also the argument that capitalism is cyclical, and whilst the big clubs may get richer/stronger/dominant, other factors may level them in the long term.

Still think the City thing will blow up sooner rather than later, Spurs & Newcastle's supposed riches hasn't got them anywhere consistently, Liverpool's improvement on the pitch seems inversely proportional to their financial strength, United's debt will eventually take it's toll, with Arsenal probably looking the most solid in the long term (boardroom wranglings notwithstanding).

Hats off to Jack Walker once again - considering he's still (wrongly) blamed in a lot of quarters for starting all this off, one look at the infrastructure & operations at Ewood (off field) shows we were really ahead of the game in lots of ways, and will probably batten down the hatches and see all this bluster out.

The only other answer is keep the Prem and kick out the big four/Champs League teams into their own league(English Champs League-ECL), possibly having a one out/one in to keep an element of competition from the Premiership as it would be?

Then anybody that wants to register for promotion into the ECL - such as Man City - have to register a bond of, say £20 million, to be split up equally against the OTHER Premiership teams for that season (except them!). If nobody can afford, or partakes, there is no promotion or relegation - but the bottom club of the ECL group pays that 20 million bond to stay in for next season, which can then go into a 'good causes-Lottery type fund to regenerate through to grass-roots).

The rest of the Premiership then is governed on an EQUAL basis (unlike now) by competent people (unlike now) and each club can only operate way on an equal footing with regard to central contracts, wage caps, transfer periods, squad sizes, home-grown players etc. Perhaps we could do the MLS thing in allowing one 'superstar' such as LA have done with Beckham, likewise on the recruitment side we could have a points system for allowing in non-nationals (in a nod to the Daily Mail and/or the new UEFA rules)

The race for 'Europe' as it stands is another problem, it does keep the season interesting - last day capitulations against Birmingham notwithstanding - but I'd rather see simply based on league positions, not fair play, InterToto or anything. Perhaps it could be first in new Prem into Champs league, Second into UEFA, Third into InterToto.

See, it really is that simple - its just the FA, the powerbrokers, the gnomes, etc. that complicate it.

[iamarover]

Fact is that as far as a competetive and evenly balanced division is concerned providing intrigue, angst and excitement for all fans the Championship is miles ahead of the Prem. One week toward the end of March only QPR knew definitely that they were playing in the same div this season. Hows that for keeping interest going? The Champions league format has turned the Prem into a copy of the scottish league where two teams dominate totally with only Abromovich being in place to form a welcome distraction. Truth is our season like the seasons of the 16 or so other clubs consists of initial fear until 40 points is reached and then finishing in crushing boredom. Virtually any change would be an improvement in many ways.

Agreed. But not this. Are we seriously saying Leeds and Leicester should be excluded for ever? Or that Bristol Rovers should not have a dream? Remember just one thing. Jack made his move in December 1990. We were outside the top 38 then. Would he have done so if a plate glass ceiling sat above us then? No he wouldn't.

[Majiball]

I like the idea of evening-up the playing field, it has made me chuckle how people go on about the SPL when its been the same in england for 10 years or so. The main part that I completely disagree with is the no relegation part otherwise we would never see things like Hull and Wimbledon's meteoric rises up the pyramid.

The Brazilian model could be looked at with two leagues running on a par say north and south with the top X teams entering the national championships (either cup or mini league format). The only trouble is you would have to re-structure everything below to fit in.

We speak about the gulf in terms of big 4 and the rest, but its the continuing gulf between the prem and the rest that worries me. How many clubs outside of the prem go into administration every year?

I do believe however with things like salary caps it has to be everyone IE the whole of UEFA, otherwise we will shot our-selfs in the foot in Europe. Getting the G14 to agree though will probably require a few loaded guns.

Its an interesting debate to be honest, with superb undertones of communism IE everyone being equal and all that. but in reality I doubt it will happen unless it comes from above club level.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

i know whats coming next.

The suggestion that Rangers and Celtic be invited to join Premiership level 2.

[gumboots]

i know whats coming next.

The suggestion that Rangers and Celtic be invited to join Premiership level 2.

the media have been banging on all week about how we can help celtic and rangers be more competitive in Europe. Quite frankly why should we? Just because the general standard of their league is poor why should english clubs give them a hand. the french league overall is not much use either. why not invite them in too? Some of their teams are probably as close to the South coast as Glasgow or edinburgh is. Where would you stop? Don't really see how this Prem League split would help either. the tv money's still going to go to the league with the big boys in it and that would mean 2 more clubs doing worse out of it than they do now.