[Archived] Johann Vogel

[DingleBaiter]

You'd think a senior player returning to fitness who played consistently when called upon, would be given at least some part in the second string.

Like Mike Newell did? Do agree with you though, but I think above anything Vogel's situation comes down to two things - manager rates other players more, and he's a miserable git that doesn't seem to want to change the manager's mind. Not the first time it's happened here, certainly won't be the last either. Look at Richard Witsche (sp?) - good pedigree before, even better afterwards - but was never going to do enough other than pull his face.

BTW - whos' the lass on the pic, she's rather fetching

[Frisky Jim]

Clearly, the opposite must also be true too? Isn't about perception (or your lack of it?). Conversely, Ince's opinion could also seriously enhance the long-term prospects of the club, given his influence he's had on the Academy/reserves already?

You know what they say about people that ass-u-me don't you?

We're talking about Vogel here, a player who has a history of moaning and falling out. Yes he's played around Europe and has some pedigree, but he only was a freebie after all. He could play more in the Euro style of passing and killing games, not so strong on the action/physical stuff. Though I felt he looked a decent player, he also seemed the type of guy that would need a ball-winner alongside him more than anyone.

If you look at the squad, Dunn Tugay or Judge would always be more likely to fulfill one central midfielder spot. The water carrier spot would be taken by Grella, Andrews or Moko.

Let's not forget Lord Hughes also dropped him too BTW.

Strangely enough, the only people that seem to presume Fowler & Andrews would be first-choicers (in building their 'straw men arguments) are the folks that seem to consider them 'adequate', which seems illogical, does it not?

Seems to me people are just picking up on a player that was probably never going to be streets in front of the other midfielders at the club anyways, when the manager has to cull some of the staff in positions were overloaded in. Vogel's a decent player, but in the eyes of the manager he's not more decent than anyone he's brought in or played to date.

If and when Vogel leaves, we'll be a good midfielder short.

Fowler and Andrews should be nowhere near the club. The pair of them are clearly not good enough.

As for Ince's long-term effect on the club - his comments about not worrying about losing to United and Arsenal is clear evidence that standards and expectations have slipped at Ewood Park.

[rover6]

These are just surmises on my part but I think that both Sergio Peter and Johann Vogel have fallen out with the management - not necessarily Ince but perhaps, the pugilistic Archie Knox.

As far as I know, neither are injured. However, they are not featuring for reserves or first team squads. Ince has shown that he is prepared to give the unknown quantity a chance. Vogel was unknown to him but hasn't had look in (partly due to injuries, admittedly).

I guess, the Sergio Peter thing could be to do with his facile attempt at a chip penalty in that friendly in Portugal. Hasn't been heard of since....

[philipl]

Has Vogel not even featured for the reserves? If not, it sounds like he's just been frozen out completely.

Sadly, you have it spot on.

[Billy Castell]

It is a shame, as I never really saw Vogel, so I'd like to have seen more of him. With Tugay being as old as Stonehenge, Grella returning from injury, Dunn's legs constantly falling off and Andrews not setting the world on fire I'd have thought Vogel should have a chance to prove himself.

[DingleBaiter]

These are just surmises on my part but I think that both Sergio Peter and Johann Vogel have fallen out with the management - not necessarily Ince but perhaps, the pugilistic Archie Knox.

As far as I know, neither are injured. However, they are not featuring for reserves or first team squads. Ince has shown that he is prepared to give the unknown quantity a chance. Vogel was unknown to him but hasn't had look in (partly due to injuries, admittedly).

I guess, the Sergio Peter thing could be to do with his facile attempt at a chip penalty in that friendly in Portugal. Hasn't been heard of since....

Sergio spotted only yesterday morning flouncing around BV looking like a knitwear model while rest of squad was training. However, think it's mischievous to suggest his fall from grace has only happened since the Ince regime; I'd suggest both regimes were agreed on some things Think it's simply injuries, loss of form/interest and milkthecontractitis. Treacy could have gone the same way - arguably was doing - but he's rose to the challenge and is clearly benefitting from it.

I wouldn't suggest they've fallen out, just they don't fall in with what the regime laid down in their expectations when they first took over. I'm sure they (Ince et all) were amenable to all the squad and give everyone an equal chance. If some folk didn't take that chance, or simply weren't considered what they wanted to keep, that's unfortunate - but they're there to make decisions after all (hopefully the right ones!)

[DingleBaiter]

It is a shame, as I never really saw Vogel, so I'd like to have seen more of him. With Tugay being as old as Stonehenge, Grella returning from injury, Dunn's legs constantly falling off and Andrews not setting the world on fire I'd have thought Vogel should have a chance to prove himself.

One point we're missing in all this is where Judgey may have been if not injured and away with internationals. Considering he's the player with the best running/distance covered on the Opta stats (even better than Emo & Peds) and Ince's apparent confidence in the lad, perhaps adds another angle to the Vogel debate. Perhaps it's best to give him the maximum time to find another club - likewise Moko - whilst getting his favoured players integrated soonest?

[stuwilky]

Sadly, you have it spot on.

you sound very certain Philip. Are you privy to insider information on this?

[philipl]

QUOTE (BuckyRover @ Oct 23 2008, 13:15 )

You have just completely made something up and claimed it as fact.

Where is there any hard evidence that Ince does not like vogel "as a footballer"?

I thought we already understood that Ince picked players on a game by game basis dependent on many things, but one of them is how they perform in training, have you seen any training sessions, do you know what kind of attitude Vogel is displaying???

I am pretty confident that Ince knows a lot more than "our man in Malta"

Read the Johann Vogel thread on the Rovers official website.

Admin said:

It is quite straightforward, the manager prefers other players for that position.

and

This is what happens when clubs change managers, people have different ideas.

[Mafioso]

If we are to get anything financially for Vogel than we had better play him a couple of times before January. I would rather play him (fully fit) than Warnock in the centre. Don't get me wrong he hasnt really disappointed, I just think there should be a little more technique to Stephen's game if he is to play in the centre. I'm not a Vogel fanatic but like some others have said, with the injuries we have in the centre (its not hypothetical) we could try to gel him into the team. Especially when Ince plays 2 infront of the back 4.

[AussieinUk]

Not really phased by this piece of news.. The squad is too large and PI has obviously made up his mind on some of the 'squad' players.

One down and another three to go...

[CrazyIvan]

Now that is a joke.

Vogel is in every respect superior to what I have seen of Andrews thus far. Vogel can pass with both feet, has quick feet and didn't arrive in tackles minutes too late.

One tackle that was actually because Andrews slipped and you decide to jump on him? You need to get your 'facts' straight. Check the statistics for Andrews!

[dingles staying down 4ever]

One tackle that was actually because Andrews slipped and you decide to jump on him? You need to get your 'facts' straight. Check the statistics for Andrews!

It was a bad tackle though and in the scheme of things probably helped win the game. It does not warrant Phil's outburst though.

[imy9]

He believes that Vogel is inferior to Andrews, he signed Robbie Fowler and has also lavished praise on Jason Roberts. Clear examples that suggest that the club is in trouble under Ince's guidance.

Signing poor players whilst letting good ones leave is rather reckless. I have no faith in Paul Ince.

It is simply a case of a player not fitting into the plans of a manager, Vogel was signed on a free when no one else wanted to sign him for SIX months, no big loss.

Lavished praise on JR, that would be called giving your players confidence, only a twit would come out and criticise a player who the club and...ummm Mark Hughes paid £3 million pounds for.

Fowler is on a short term pay as you play deal, similar to Youri D when Hughes first arrived.

What about Robinson?, Simpson?, Carlos? Introducing Olsson and Judge into the first team too, is that not better than signing 31 Year old Swiss rejects like Berner? Did not see you complaining then...

[sambo]

I am annoyed by this, he's a great passer and played well last season:S

[pksrover]

In today's prematch comments from Incey on the official site about the options in midfield, Vogel wasn't mentioned. It's a shame as everyone says, cos I thought he played well at the end of last season.

[frosty]

Disappointing news that he may be on his way out. He really impressed me at the end of last season considering he hadn't played for months, I'm sure he would have got better this season too.

[Amo]

In today's prematch comments from Incey on the official site about the options in midfield, Vogel wasn't mentioned. It's a shame as everyone says, cos I thought he played well at the end of last season.

To not even consider Vogel as an OPTION, indicates that the player's either fallen out with the manager or Ince doesn't know who he is.

[philipl]

To not even consider Vogel as an OPTION, indicates that the player's either fallen out with the manager or Ince doesn't know who he is.

The latter unfortunately.

[imy9]

Obviously had a major impact on Ince in training then...

[philipl]

Obviously had a major impact on Ince in training then...

or had to make way for Ince's pet?

[Exiled in Toronto]

The latter unfortunately.

Hmmm, Ex Man Yoo, Inter, Liverpool, 50-cap England midfielder has opinion based on seeing player every day in training vs Maltese-based bean-counter who hasn't been to Ewood in years and has seen bits of Vogel on 2" x 3" internet feed.

Ok - you've convinced me!

And it totally explains why Vogel couldn't find a club - any club - for months before we 'swooped' for him.

[philipl]

Hmmm, Ex Man Yoo, Inter, Liverpool, 50-cap England midfielder has opinion based on seeing player every day in training vs Maltese-based bean-counter who hasn't been to Ewood in years and has seen bits of Vogel on 2" x 3" internet feed.

Ok - you've convinced me!

And it totally explains why Vogel couldn't find a club - any club - for months before we 'swooped' for him.

Calm down old boy.

[imy9]

Hmmm, Ex Man Yoo, Inter, Liverpool, 50-cap England midfielder has opinion based on seeing player every day in training vs Maltese-based bean-counter who hasn't been to Ewood in years and has seen bits of Vogel on 2" x 3" internet feed.

Ok - you've convinced me!

And it totally explains why Vogel couldn't find a club - any club - for months before we 'swooped' for him.

[CrazyIvan]

or had to make way for Ince's pet?

Bee in bonnet time... Which one is Inces pet then?