[Archived] Johann Vogel

[leftfooter]

Considering he was free and, as most people here would agree, had a run of good games in a fairly weak central midfield before the end of last season I don't think he can be labeled as a bad signing.

Nothing is for free Commondore.

I'm just guessing, but let's say a conservative 15K per week for the last 6 months; that's 360K in wages to date and counting. That's not to be sniffed at (even for Robbie Fowler, and he no longer has a septum if rumours are to be believed).

Not to mention an old sweat with a big reputation cloggin up the midfield when a hungry replacement like Judge could be given an opportunity.

[DingleBaiter]

Sucess or failure? Neither really since he wasn't around all that long. If he'd been there a year then maybe he'd have been judged a success. If he's on his way out after 6 months then it can't be a success but he played reasonably well in the games I saw so he wasn't a complete failure (like Dino Baggio was for example).

Surely the original question is joke - asking someone to define a success or a failure in such a simplistic way? Surely it all depends on the criteria - and you're looking for opinions. He could be considered a success for Hughes - as he put him straight in the team, and kept him in, against some good sides, and he did okay. He hasn't had a sniff for Ince, and seemingly won't ever do - so he's now a failure?

It's the same pesh as turning everything into an Ince vs Hughes debate - it's not always that simplistic.

Look at Hakan Unsal for instance, what did he play for us - 3 games - before he went back to Turkey, whilst being a first choice left back for the best Turkey side in recent years, despite not playing too bad here? Some would say he was a failure for the same reasons - having a short career of only a few games here at Ewood - but it's not always a player's measure of success being based on his performances or length of career here. Sometimes offers come in, they don't settle, or a multitude of other things separate to performances.

Was Witsche (sp?) a failure when he was here? Based on performances, definitely. Was he a bad player overall - doubt it, given his pedigree & what he achieved subsequently (as many 'international' players seem to). Vogel clearly wasn't a donkey based on his pedigree or his performances here, it's his baggage that's the problem - not the talent.

Fickle

[leftfooter]

Surely the original question is joke - asking someone to define a success or a failure in such a simplistic way? Surely it all depends on the criteria - and you're looking for opinions. He could be considered a success for Hughes - as he put him straight in the team, and kept him in, against some good sides, and he did okay. He hasn't had a sniff for Ince, and seemingly won't ever do - so he's now a failure?

It's the same pesh as turning everything into an Ince vs Hughes debate - it's not always that simplistic.

Look at Hakan Unsal for instance, what did he play for us - 3 games - before he went back to Turkey, whilst being a first choice left back for the best Turkey side in recent years, despite not playing too bad here? Some would say he was a failure for the same reasons - having a short career of only a few games here at Ewood - but it's not always a player's measure of success being based on his performances or length of career here. Sometimes offers come in, they don't settle, or a multitude of other things separate to performances.

Was Witsche (sp?) a failure when he was here? Based on performances, definitely. Was he a bad player overall - doubt it, given his pedigree & what he achieved subsequently (as many 'international' players seem to). Vogel clearly wasn't a donkey based on his pedigree or his performances here, it's his baggage that's the problem - not the talent.

Fickle

You’re right DB.

The EPL is an awfully elitist and terribly competitive tournament of a rather exclusive nature isn’t it?

I think it’s commendable of you to chide me for unfairly judging whether such a highly paid sportsman such as Vogel has failed or succeeded, and for suggesting that Mark Hughes might have made a duff signing.

I promise to make more effort to be less judgmental in future and focus less on failure or success in terms of criticising professional footballers.

After all; it’s not the winning that counts, is it Dingle Baiter? It’s the taking part.

Thanks DB for drawing that to my attention; and well done Johann!

[DingleBaiter]

You’re right DB.

The EPL is an awfully elitist and terribly competitive tournament of a rather exclusive nature isn’t it?

I think it’s commendable of you to chide me for unfairly judging whether such a highly paid sportsman such as Vogel has failed or succeeded, and for suggesting that Mark Hughes might have made a duff signing.

I promise to make more effort to be less judgmental in future and focus less on failure or success in terms of criticising professional footballers.

After all; it’s not the winning that counts, is it Dingle Baiter? It’s the taking part.

Thanks DB for drawing that to my attention; and well done Johann!

Good - gold star in your workbook for today

Wasn't chiding you, just simply saying it's not a finite thing defining success/failure, as everyone has different perceptions.

For instance - take a normal typical lad going out on a Sat night to pull someone he can make the beast with two backs with. End of night he ends up with Martha Dumptruck, but 'any port in a storm'. By his goal - of getting jiggy - he succeeded. By his mates perceptions/goals - he was a failure, as they all bagged hotties.

Here endeth the lesson.....

[leftfooter]

Good - gold star in your workbook for today

Wasn't chiding you, just simply saying it's not a finite thing defining success/failure, as everyone has different perceptions.

For instance - take a normal typical lad going out on a Sat night to pull someone he can make the beast with two backs with. End of night he ends up with Martha Dumptruck, but 'any port in a storm'. By his goal - of getting jiggy - he succeeded. By his mates perceptions/goals - he was a failure, as they all bagged hotties.

Here endeth the lesson.....

You're alright DB

[CrazyIvan]

Good - gold star in your workbook for today

Wasn't chiding you, just simply saying it's not a finite thing defining success/failure, as everyone has different perceptions.

For instance - take a normal typical lad going out on a Sat night to pull someone he can make the beast with two backs with. End of night he ends up with Martha Dumptruck, but 'any port in a storm'. By his goal - of getting jiggy - he succeeded. By his mates perceptions/goals - he was a failure, as they all bagged hotties.

Here endeth the lesson.....

pmsl... Reminds me of this...