[Archived] The Nice Side Of Jorg Haider

[philipl]

I must admit when I saw Haider fooling around with his bodyguards like something out of The sound of Music on top of an Austrian mountain, I thought "that guy is completely gay".

[thenodrog]

Oh right. Personally speaking I've never heard of him.

[blue phil]

I must admit when I saw Haider fooling around with his bodyguards like something out of The sound of Music on top of an Austrian mountain, I thought "that guy is completely gay".

Maybe he was , maybe he wasn't . Does it really matter ?

Another so-called Euro right wing "extremist" , Pym Forteyn , was openly gay . It didn't effect his great popularity .....excepting those who murdered him , of course

I think continental Europeans would be a little surprised at how the British tend to politicise a persons sexuality and take such an interest in it .

Especially those with a public school background ......

[tony gale's mic]

Maybe he was , maybe he wasn't . Does it really matter ?

Another so-called Euro right wing "extremist" , Pym Forteyn , was openly gay . It didn't effect his great popularity .....excepting those who murdered him , of course

I think continental Europeans would be a little surprised at how the British tend to politicise a persons sexuality and take such an interest in it .

Especially those with a public school background ......

It matters a lot when he had numerous policies which were against gay rights...the far right aren't widely known for their tolerant attitudes to these things..

[broadsword]

What a sweetie.

[rover6]

I don't know how such a politician can keep the fact that he has a gay side from public knowledge. It doesn't sound as if he was particularly furtive about it.

Also, could gay rights be the saving (or delaying) of Europe from prevalent right wing influence? The gradual increase in influence of far right groups seemed relentless - an inevitable and mindless response to the immigration problem (globalisation problem?).

Now, I'm thinking, splits over the issue of homosexuality could weaken these Nazi and Crypto-Nazis - am I hoping for too much? I guess, it would depend on the size/influence of the gay Nazi brigade, which I admit, I'm not particularly knowledgeable about.

[gillibrand]

I thought the Muslims were the group with biggest loathing of Gays?

[broadsword]

gay Nazi brigade

Never heard of this organisation, I have to be honest.

Are they the "Black and Pink Shirts"?

Pink is the new black, dahling!

[colin]

Gays , whites , hindus , christians , women , etc ad nauseum ...........you name it they hate it . Could be that their religion/culture is just pure hate and intolerance personified - centuries of inbred , indoctrinated barbarism .

In Blackburn we know all about these hate mongers and the despicable manner in which they refuse to ever to co-operate with the police in any crime which involves any member of their backward religion/culture .

LINK 1

LINK 2

I think poor Jorg Haider was an amateur when it comes to extremism .....

Has anyone been convicted for these crimes yet?

"I think poor Jorg Haider was an amateur when it comes to extremism"

Good to see you've lightened up on gay people. May it continue to other folk too. Well done.

[tony gale's mic]

Gays , whites , hindus , christians , women , etc ad nauseum ...........you name it they hate it . Could be that their religion/culture is just pure hate and intolerance personified - centuries of inbred , indoctrinated barbarism .

In Blackburn we know all about these hate mongers and the despicable manner in which they refuse to ever to co-operate with the police in any crime which involves any member of their backward religion/culture .

LINK 1

LINK 2

I think poor Jorg Haider was an amateur when it comes to extremism .....

Judging by this post, I think there's one very obvious example of hate and intolerance in this thread.

[blue phil]

Has anyone been convicted for these crimes yet?

"I think poor Jorg Haider was an amateur when it comes to extremism"

Good to see you've lightened up on gay people. May it continue to other folk too. Well done.

Never had a problem with gay people , Col - so long as they keep their perversions behind closed doors .

I think the Islamists you continally defend and encourage have more extreme views with how to deal with the gay community .

As for the crimes you talk about I'm sure the police are doing all they can under the circumstances they find themselves in .

All residents of Blackburn - which you're not , of course - know damn well they'll have to cope without the support of the "community" from which the perpetrators come from .

No comment from the man of Straw on the racist beating in Bank Top . But then again he's also perfectly prepared to look the other way if the perpetrators are Asian . Hatred , racism and intolerance of justice ; it's all there ....join the club , Col - you'll feel at home .

[colin]

Never had a problem with gay people , Col - so long as they keep their perversions behind closed doors .

"perversions behind closed doors"

It seems like you do have a problem with gay people. Never mind.

[blue phil]

You obviously don't know the definition of "perversion" , Col .

Anyway , as a fervent apologist and appeaser of Islamists in this country you might care to compare my views on the subject with theirs LINK

Those unwilling to condemn Islamic fascists utterly in their treatment of women , homosexuals and non-believers of their disgusting creed are as bad as the fascists themselves .

Don't you agree ?

[tony gale's mic]

I will never understand what gives someone the authority to comment on a religion or a group of people when they have absolutely no first hand experience of those people themselves.

And don't include living in Blackburn Phil...we both know how segregated Blackburn is, whoever you apportion the blame for this to (and personally I apportion it to factions on both sides).

[blue phil]

Don't give me that kind of cr^p , Tony .

Living in a town for 20 years gives a person plenty of experience of those on both sides of the divide - and the right to comment on extremist elements .

But I'll remember your comments next time someone condemns the BNP if ever a bunch of white thugs kick the sh!t out of some innocent Asian some night .

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I will never understand what gives someone the authority to comment on a religion or a group of people when they have absolutely no first hand experience of those people themselves.

And don't include living in Blackburn Phil...we both know how segregated Blackburn is, whoever you apportion the blame for this to (and personally I apportion it to factions on both sides).

But surely that works both ways? You are defending people on the basis of mainstream leftist media sources such as the Guardian. That simply does not suffice – when you dismiss BP’s opinion, because he has no experience of living within a certain community.

Don’t take this the wrong way – but those that champion the Islamist cause on here have a rather weak grasp of the crux of the matter not to mention the roles of history, culture & theology. To reiterate, regurgitating the Guardian or shouting racist is not a proper debating tool.

[Rovermatt]

Never had a problem with gay people , Col - so long as they keep their perversions behind closed doors .

The ultimate 'I ain't a homophobe but...' refrain. Why wouldn't they be keeping it behind closed doors? Do gays have more of a predilection for public displays of 'perversion' than straight people? You'll be telling them not to recruit your kids and to forget about trying anything on with you next.

[tony gale's mic]

Don't give me that kind of cr^p , Tony .

Living in a town for 20 years gives a person plenty of experience of those on both sides of the divide - and the right to comment on extremist elements .

But I'll remember your comments next time someone condemns the BNP if ever a bunch of white thugs kick the sh!t out of some innocent Asian some night .

If someone condemns the BNP after that happens then I'd agree, it's not particularly relevant.

You weren't commenting on extremist elements though were you?

Could be that their religion/culture is just pure hate and intolerance personified - centuries of inbred , indoctrinated barbarism .

In Blackburn we know all about these hate mongers and the despicable manner in which they refuse to ever to co-operate with the police in any crime which involves any member of their backward religion/culture .

Living in Blackburn for twenty years without making any great effort to interact with the Muslim side of the divide does NOT give you much of a right to comment on their religion and their culture.

Not that I'm condemning you for not making a great effort...most people don't and the problem is just as much on their side as it is on the white side (this is coming from someone who can safely describe themselves as not on either side in this particular divide). But calling their religion and culture hate and intolerance personified is pretty strong stuff when you don't really have a clue.

[Rovermatt]

Don’t take this the wrong way – but those that champion the Islamist cause on here have a rather weak grasp of the crux of the matter not to mention the roles of history, culture & theology. To reiterate, regurgitating the Guardian or shouting racist is not a proper debating tool.

Nobody on here champions such causes. Nor does the Guardian have any relevance.

[tony gale's mic]

But surely that works both ways? You are defending people on the basis of mainstream leftist media sources such as the Guardian. That simply does not suffice – when you dismiss BP’s opinion, because he has no experience of living within a certain community.

Don’t take this the wrong way – but those that champion the Islamist cause on here have a rather weak grasp of the crux of the matter not to mention the role of history, culture & theology. To reiterate, regurgitating the Guardian or shouting racist is not a proper debating tool.

I'm not regurgitating the Guardian or shouting racist. Phil may be a racist, he may not be, I'd need to know him better to make that call. Although frankly that doesn't sound like the most appealing prospect...

And who says I'm defending people on the basis of the Guardian? Where on earth do you get these assumptions?! Although politically aligned with the centre-left, I prefer not to read the Guardian as I'd rather read a centrist paper (eg the Times which historically has been centre right although its shifted more left in recent years) than any sort of paper aligned to a particular side.

Having said that, I do enjoy reading columns by the likes of Charlie Brooker and Monbiot, but that's because they're excellent writers more than anything else.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I'm not regurgitating the Guardian or shouting racist. Phil may be a racist, he may not be, I'd need to know him better to make that call. Although frankly that doesn't sound like the most appealing prospect...

And who says I'm defending people on the basis of the Guardian? Where on earth do you get these assumptions?! Although politically aligned with the centre-left, I prefer not to read the Guardian as I'd rather read a centrist paper (eg the Times which historically has been centre right although its shifted more left in recent years) than any sort of paper aligned to a particular side.

Having said that, I do enjoy reading columns by the likes of Charlie Brooker and Monbiot, but that's because they're excellent writers more than anything else.

So what exactly makes you more qualified to say that you’re ‘centre-left’ stance is correct & BP opinion is wrong? Yes you are a trainee doctor ( and as result an individual with obvious intellect)- but I would hazard a guess that BP has far more theoretical and primary knowledge of Islam and Islamists than yourself.

Please put me straight if you are well read on the matter and my assumptions are incorrect.

[tony gale's mic]

So what exactly makes you more qualified to say that you’re ‘centre-left’ stance is correct & BP opinion is wrong? Yes you are a trainee doctor ( and as result an individual with obvious intellect)- but I would hazard a guess that BP has far more theoretical and primary knowledge of Islam and Islamists than yourself.

Please put me straight if you are well read on the matter and my assumptions are incorrect.

It's not so much a 'centre-left' stance on this issue, I know plenty of centre right folk who would share my views on these issues aswell. It's not about political stances, it's about demonising a whole group of people.

How could blue phil possibly have a particularly large theoretical and primary knowledge of Islam and (as I'm fairly sure they prefer to be called) Muslims? The man lives in Blackburn and reads Daily Mail/Daily Express articles for ammunition, which even many of its readers in their heart of hearts would admit are just a little bit biased. Feel free to correct me if, in fact, he has a working knowledge of the Qu'ran as I certainly don't go anywhere near that far in my theoretical knowledge. I am making assumptions here...

I've got many Muslim friends, some have rejected their faith, some drink and go out but still call themselves Muslims, some are well and truly practicing. I'm not afraid to bring up their religion with them and I've had many a conversation with all three types. As a trainee doctor here in West Yorkshire I speak to them every day on a much more personal level than most people would do their friends. I spent a month this summer working in a hospital in the Malaysian city of Johor Bahru which is a Muslim city.

Their culture over the years has had many excellent things going for it, from mathematics, to architecture, art etc. There's also less savoury things I've seen - the consanguinity issue is a particular bugbear of mine and many Muslims I've spoken to have said it's a historic thing rather than something thats stated in the Qu'ran. But then, theyre hardly the only community where that happens. But either way, I know that someone who has actually made the effort to get to know them on a personal level couldn't possibly demonise them, their religion and their culture as "barbaric" in the way that BP did in his post. I know this isn't exactly always the easiest thing to do if you root yourself in Blackburn, but if you don't know, don't spread the ignorance.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

It's not so much a 'centre-left' stance on this issue, I know plenty of centre right folk who would share my views on these issues aswell. It's not about political stances, it's about demonising a whole group of people.

How could blue phil possibly have a particularly large theoretical and primary knowledge of Islam and (as I'm fairly sure they prefer to be called) Muslims? The man lives in Blackburn and reads Daily Mail/Daily Express articles for ammunition, which even many of its readers in their heart of hearts would admit are just a little bit biased. Feel free to correct me if, in fact, he has a working knowledge of the Qu'ran as I certainly don't go anywhere near that far in my theoretical knowledge. I am making assumptions here...

I've got many Muslim friends, some have rejected their faith, some drink and go out but still call themselves Muslims, some are well and truly practicing. I'm not afraid to bring up their religion with them and I've had many a conversation with all three types. As a trainee doctor here in West Yorkshire I speak to them every day on a much more personal level than most people would do their friends. I spent a month this summer working in a hospital in the Malaysian city of Johor Bahru which is a Muslim city.

Their culture over the years has had many excellent things going for it, from mathematics, to architecture, art etc. There's also less savoury things I've seen - the consanguinity issue is a particular bugbear of mine and many Muslims I've spoken to have said it's a historic thing rather than something thats stated in the Qu'ran. But then, theyre hardly the only community where that happens. But either way, I know that someone who has actually made the effort to get to know them on a personal level couldn't possibly demonise them, their religion and their culture as "barbaric" in the way that BP did in his post. I know this isn't exactly always the easiest thing to do if you root yourself in Blackburn, but if you don't know, don't spread the ignorance.

You let yourself down with wild rather snobbish assumptions that someone who lives in Blackburn and who doesn’t follow the champagne socialist mantra- simply can’t have such knowledge.

For your information, BP is probably one of the most clued up and well-read posters on this board. I would hasten a guess that he has far more knowledge of the major theological and historical events than yourself.

The last great achievements of Islam, which you reference, were actually pre 17th century (as the European enlightenment seemed to coincide with the complete demise of Islamic achievement and progression). Islam both intrigues and polarises me in equal proportions, as such I have spent months in five different Islamic nations to take in this unique culture and yes I have seen much of the negative aspects of the Islamic culture first-hand.

As for BP’s throwaway remark you keep referencing, he is actually refereeing to the practice of Islamism rather than Islam as a religion. Furthermore, I tend to agree that a political system that is solely based on a book written some 1500 years ago- is, at best monolithic

[tony gale's mic]

You let yourself down with wild rather snobbish assumptions that someone who lives in Blackburn and who doesn’t follow the champagne socialist mantra- simply can’t have such knowledge.

For your information, BP is probably one of the most clued up and well-read posters on this board. I would hasten a guess that he has far more knowledge of the major theological and historical events than yourself.

The last great achievements of Islam, which you reference, were actually pre 17th century (as the European enlightenment seemed to coincide with the complete demise of Islamic achievement and progression). Islam both intrigues and polarises me in equal proportions, as such I have spent months in five different Islamic nations to take in this unique culture and yes I have seen much of the negative aspects of the Islamic culture first-hand.

As for BP’s throwaway remark you keep referencing, he is actually refereeing to the practice of Islamism rather than Islam as a religion. Furthermore, I tend to agree that a political system that is solely based on a book written some 1500 years ago- is, at best monolithic

So your assumptions about me lifting my beliefs from the Guardian is completely different? Champagne socialist mantra? Sorry?!

Well read? I've seen nothing from his posts that references this, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I'm not sure how you'd know either, unless you knew him well off this forum.

Clued up? I very much doubt it, I would respect the opinion of someone who has spent time interacting within communities and familiarising themselves with a culture than someone who has read theoretical texts. You can read dozens of historical and theoretical accounts but if theyre all from similar viewpoints then they're only going to lead you in a certain direction. I certainly wouldn't call someone labelling a religion and culture as "barbaric" as a throwaway remark.

I certainly don't agree with various aspects of Islam like some aspects of Sharia Law but then that, like many religious examples (Islam, numerous branches of Christianity, Jehovahs Witnesses to name just three examples) is based on interpretations of texts much of the time, or people not putting them into their correct historical contexts. But even something like Sharia Law which we would see as quite extreme, from what little I've seen of it, a lot of it would make perfect sense with us and not be that out of keeping with our own beliefs. It's just the parts that are out of our own beliefs stick out like a sore thumb. And some practices do need stopping, this goes without saying.

Which countries did you spend time in and what were you doing?

[blue phil]

How could blue phil possibly have a particularly large theoretical and primary knowledge of Islam and (as I'm fairly sure they prefer to be called) Muslims? The man lives in Blackburn and reads Daily Mail/Daily Express articles for ammunition, which even many of its readers in their heart of hearts would admit are just a little bit biased.

Great Allah Almighty ! You have a go at someone for assuming you read The Guardian and then come out with this statement !

Are all trainee doctors as arrogant and narrow minded as you ? I'd hope to God some are more broad minded and prepared to concede that even people living in Blackburn are capable of reading and comprehending scources of information on any subject beyond that of tabloid newspapers .

Next time you speak to your Islamic medical colleagues in Yorkshire perhaps you could ask them why their faith has produced cells of fellow doctors who are perfectly prepared to blow themselves up in public in the name of their religion ? To my knowledge the C of E has yet to move in that particular direction .

My point has always been that not ALL Muslims are terrorists but that that particular faith/culture is far , far more likely than others to produce murderous extremists and hate mongers - not to mention those who give tacit and non tacit support to their aims - than any other group in our society . And yes , that does include far right white extremists .

Integration will NEVER happen in places like Blackburn because those controlling the way Islam is interpreted simply will not permit it . Those persons are EXTREMISTS , and furthermore self perpetuate their dogmatic beliefs generation after generation . You have to live in places like Blackburn to know the absolute truth of that statement . And you don't have to be an Islamic scholar either ....