[Archived] The Nice Side Of Jorg Haider

[Bazzanotsogreat]

So your assumptions about me lifting my beliefs from the Guardian is completely different? Champagne socialist mantra? Sorry?!

Well read? I've seen nothing from his posts that references this, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I'm not sure how you'd know either, unless you knew him well off this forum.

Clued up? I very much doubt it, I would respect the opinion of someone who has spent time interacting within communities and familiarising themselves with a culture than someone who has read theoretical texts. You can read dozens of historical and theoretical accounts but if theyre all from similar viewpoints then they're only going to lead you in a certain direction. I certainly wouldn't call someone labelling a religion and culture as "barbaric" as a throwaway remark.

I certainly don't agree with various aspects of Islam like some aspects of Sharia Law but then that, like many religious examples (Islam, numerous branches of Christianity, Jehovahs Witnesses to name just three examples) is based on interpretations of texts much of the time, or people not putting them into their correct historical contexts. But even something like Sharia Law which we would see as quite extreme, from what little I've seen of it, a lot of it would make perfect sense with us and not be that out of keeping with our own beliefs. It's just the parts that are out of our own beliefs stick out like a sore thumb. And some practices do need stopping, this goes without saying.

Which countries did you spend time in and what were you doing?

You really are not doing yourself any favours with this myopic, superior attitude. PhilipL has tried and failed with this arrogant approach to debating.

It is clear from your posts you have little to offer in terms quantifiable empirical knowledge apart from a few snippets on Sharia law- which for your information is more closely linked to the Hadith (sunnah) than the Quran. I suggest you read some texts written By Bernard Lewis or Edward Said before you try the ‘superior approach’.

For your info: I have visited Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia and Libya (very briefly- I must admit). I do include turkey in my list as it is not an Islamic state. Some for holidays the other for cultural experience/research.

[colin]

You obviously don't know the definition of "perversion" , Col .

Anyway , as a fervent apologist and appeaser of Islamists in this country you might care to compare my views on the subject with theirs LINK

Those unwilling to condemn Islamic fascists utterly in their treatment of women , homosexuals and non-believers of their disgusting creed are as bad as the fascists themselves .

Don't you agree ?

Yup,

I'ts just that I have more more fun taking the mickey out if intolerent & obsessive chunts like you, than them other idiots

Ishmallah.

[tony gale's mic]

Great Allah Almighty ! You have a go at someone for assuming you read The Guardian and then come out with this statement !

Are all trainee doctors as arrogant and narrow minded as you ? I'd hope to God some are more broad minded and prepared to concede that even people living in Blackburn are capable of reading and comprehending scources of information on any subject beyond that of tabloid newspapers .

Next time you speak to your Islamic medical colleagues in Yorkshire perhaps you could ask them why their faith has produced cells of fellow doctors who are perfectly prepared to blow themselves up in public in the name of their religion ? To my knowledge the C of E has yet to move in that particular direction .

My point has always been that not ALL Muslims are terrorists but that that particular faith/culture is far , far more likely than others to produce murderous extremists and hate mongers - not to mention those who give tacit and non tacit support to their aims - than any other group in our society . And yes , that does include far right white extremists .

Integration will NEVER happen in places like Blackburn because those controlling the way Islam is interpreted simply will not permit it . Those persons are EXTREMISTS , and furthermore self perpetuate their dogmatic beliefs generation after generation . You have to live in places like Blackburn to know the absolute truth of that statement . And you don't have to be an Islamic scholar either ....

I find it amazing that you call other people arrogant and narrow minded... I also see you ignored the rest of my post...you know, the part that was actually making a serious point rather than a flippant remark?!

I don't really see it as a relevant question to ask my colleagues, seeing that was an isolated incident involving a tiny handful of doctors. These people are psychopaths, my Muslim colleagues would not be able to speak up for them any more than you or I would. The only thing they share in common is their religion. This is part of the problem with folks like you Phil, you seek to stick people under one umbrella just because they follow the same religion which over a billion people in this world also follow.

What about the IRA? ETA? Tamil Tigers? The Shining Path? FARC? That's excluding the far right white extremists you've just mentioned. Surely, since you're a good deal older than me, you can remember a time, not even ten years ago, that the Muslim terrorist groups were confined to areas such as the Middle East and Kashmir? Our main terrorist threat was the IRA but you didnt see people writing off Catholics as hate mongers did you?

The reason why there seems to be excessive numbers is not because of the faith or the culture, but because of the Middle East conflicts. How many Islamic terrorist activities were there before the creation of Israel and the careless British divisions of India and Pakistan? I am not taking sides in either conflict but to blame it on their faith and culture is missing the point entirely.

I grew up in Blackburn and still go there regularly so it's not like I'm not from there. The segregation issue is a far more complex one than your simplistic suggestion. Integration is a two way street. For all the will in the world, it would be VERY hard for Muslims to integrate fully into Western society if they follow their religion. Their no alcohol rule is probably the biggest factor here, and you can hardly begrudge them of that. Additonally those that follow their religion closely will only marry Muslims (again, not unique to Islam), and many social situations as you start to grow up have this as a big factor, going to clubs, parties etc. Even going to restaurants, they have Halal (like the Jews have kosher), and so they tend to eat at places they know will be halal. You can't possibly begrudge them simply for following their faith.

Hindus and Sikhs integrate better in general because it is easier for them to adapt and because they don't tend to follow their religions as strongly. Even then you still see large Hindu and Sikh communities in the Midlands and areas of London, where you'll also see Greek, Polish, etc. All these other minorities do integrate better but theyre not bound by their religions in the same way Muslims are. But there's a difference between being very religious (which a lot of Muslims are) and being an extremist (which a small minority are).

I agree that Muslims in general could make more of an effort too but it's a two way street, if people like yourself showed a little more understanding to these factors then they'd probably find it more appealing. Muslims will ALWAYS be the most segregated community in this country but that's down to the factors I outlined above, factors you can't begrudge them for. People should be allowed to follow their own faith, I'm sure you'd agree. But ignorance on both sides just makes the situation a lot worse.

[tony gale's mic]

You really are not doing yourself any favours with this myopic, superior attitude. PhilipL has tried and failed with this arrogant approach to debating.

It is clear from your posts you have little to offer in terms quantifiable empirical knowledge apart from a few snippets on Sharia law- which for your information is more closely linked to the Hadith (sunnah) than the Quran. I suggest you read some texts written By Bernard Lewis or Edward Said before you try the ‘superior approach’.

For your info: I have visited Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia and Libya (very briefly- I must admit). I do include turkey in my list as it is not an Islamic state. Some for holidays the other for cultural experience/research.

I wouldn't give debating tips to someone who's debated at the Cambridge Union in his lifetime if I were you, but thanks, I'll take it on board.

Fact is I do have very little to suggest blue phil is at all enlightened on this subject, and even if he has read texts, it's absolutely no substitute for going somewhere, experiencing the culture and interacting with the people...which I'm almost certain he hasn't done.

My biggest interest area when it comes to reading historical texts is Chinese history, and that isn't exactly kind to the Chinese people. The China of today still has rather extremist leaders, albeit leaders more welcome to open up their country to the free market. But I spent two months there in 2005 teaching English and travelling and had a brilliant time. Not that I wrote off a group of over a billion people thanks to a few extremist leaders and the actions of a minority of people, personally I'd never be that foolish....

[American]

I wouldn't give debating tips to someone who's debated at the Cambridge Union in his lifetime if I were you, but thanks, I'll take it on board.

With the way you are debating on this thread, obviously you and a mate broke in and had an argument after hours....

[tony gale's mic]

With the way you are debating on this thread, obviously you and a mate broke in and had an argument after hours....

Interesting that you choose to throw an insult rather than engage with anything I've said....

[American]

Not worth it, you're just as hypocritical and pig headed as the rest you are arguing with.

[tony gale's mic]

Not worth it, you're just as hypocritical and pig headed as the rest you are arguing with.

If anyone's hypocritical and pig headed it's yourself. The sheer arrogance on commenting on someone's debating skills whilst offering absolutely nothing themselves is hypocrisy at its finest. I'll just assume you lack the capabilities....

[American]

Assume all you want - fits in with your arguing style of not knowing any facts.

[stuwilky]

Another thread predictably descends into the usual nonsense.

[tony gale's mic]

Assume all you want - fits in with your arguing style of not knowing any facts.

I've stated plenty of facts in this thread. Any of them in particular you care to disagree with?

Or are you just trolling?

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I wouldn't give debating tips to someone who's debated at the Cambridge Union in his lifetime if I were you, but thanks, I'll take it on board.

Fact is I do have very little to suggest blue phil is at all enlightened on this subject, and even if he has read texts, it's absolutely no substitute for going somewhere, experiencing the culture and interacting with the people...which I'm almost certain he hasn't done.

My biggest interest area when it comes to reading historical texts is Chinese history, and that isn't exactly kind to the Chinese people. The China of today still has rather extremist leaders, albeit leaders more welcome to open up their country to the free market. But I spent two months there in 2005 teaching English and travelling and had a brilliant time. Not that I wrote off a group of over a billion people thanks to a few extremist leaders and the actions of a minority of people, personally I'd never be that foolish....

My friend you really are doing yourself no favours with this superior attitude. We get that you are a trainee doctor & obviously have a decent intellect. However ,what you must release is that there are people out there - that have also been to university and just perhaps have qualifications even better than your own.

As for your Cambridge quote- I’m pretty sure we have posters on here who have post-grad qualifications from Cambridge. I had the necessary grades to enter the phd course run by the political science faculty- which was something I contemplated, but in the end choose a different life path.

I am yet to see any evidence that you any sort of advanced knowledge of the subject matter. Instead you choose to run down BP or anyone from Blackburn - as such people ‘simply won’t have the intellect required to understand the subject matter’

Just out of curiosity how old are you?

[tony gale's mic]

My friend you really are doing yourself no favours with this superior attitude. We get that you are a trainee doctor & obviously have a decent intellect. However ,what you must release is that there are people out there - that have also been to university and just perhaps have qualifications even better than your own.

As for your Cambridge quote- I’m pretty sure we have posters on here who have post-grad qualifications from Cambridge. I had the necessary grades to enter the phd course run by the political science faculty- which was something I contemplated, but in the end choose a different life path.

I am yet to see any evidence that you any sort of advanced knowledge of the subject matter. Instead you choose to run down BP or anyone from Blackburn - as such people ‘simply won’t have the intellect required to understand the subject matter’

Just out of curiosity how old are you?

Sorry mate, but you have a pop at my debating style and I'll defend my debating skills. I'm not making any aspersions about you or anyone on this board.

I didn't bring up my status as a trainee doctor - YOU did. After you did so I merely said it meant that I interacted closely with Muslim people and their families on a daily basis. Hardly me claiming some sort of superior intellect is it?

Why would I want to run down folks from Blackburn? I'm a Blackburn lad myself even though I don't live there anymore. I just advocate people, whether they live there or not, taking a look and getting experiences beyond their own doorstep before they make sweeping statement about people who follow a certain religion being "barbaric".

If you're going to use quotation marks like you did at the end of your post, then at least make it something I said. Or at least came remotely close to saying. That's just misleading and leads to folks like American above who seem to find it hard to read or write posts that are longer than two sentences, to jump to incorrect conclusions. Not really healthy that is it...

I have experience on this subject matter, and as I've asserted spending time working in and with Muslim communities is far, far more pertinent here than reading historical texts, which either way I have absolutely no evidence of blue phil having done either. If he's got great knowledge on the subject matter, he is yet to demonstrate it once in this thread. I'd say my knowledge on the "theoretical" side of things in this instance, while much better than your average bloke on the street, is probably not as good as some folks on here, but as I've experienced time and time again myself, that's no substitute for getting in and amongst a community.

[Rovermatt]

It is apt (not to mention alarming) that a thread about a gay politician has descended into a big willy competition.

[rover6]

It just depresses me to think how intractable some human problems are.

We get frenzied, interminable heated debates on here - a small speck in cyberspace - what hope is there for stuff getting practicably resolved in the real world?

Sadly, it seems like none. Which is why two dangerous paths are being more frequently tread - extremism and ignore-ism. Both could have devastating effects but, i have to admit, they are very attractive compared to throwing yourself into the debilitating quagmire of debate.

[colin]

It just depresses me to think how intractable some human problems are.

We get frenzied, interminable heated debates on here - a small speck in cyberspace - what hope is there for stuff getting practicably resolved in the real world?

Sadly, it seems like none. Which is why two dangerous paths are being more frequently tread - extremism and ignore-ism. Both could have devastating effects but, i have to admit, they are very attractive compared to throwing yourself into the debilitating quagmire of debate.

That's the beauty of the internet.

A load of people playing "slaps" and thinking they are making important points.

No one gives a flying sausage about your opinion; or how many books you've read; or how many debates you've been to at Cambridge; or how many societies or clubs you are a members of.

You are just wasting your time. Really honestly. I'm just wasting my time typing this (but at least I've got something going on on the kitchen.)

Oh well, MOTD is on in a bit.

[DingleBaiter]

The guy in the picture looks a nice fella; interesting story too. Must admit, after hearing the story in the news, had a completely different mental image of him than that. Made out to be some ogre according to the media?

Got to admit, read through all the peeing contest posts, but must have missed the general relevance to the thread?

Unless of course, the thread was posted initially knowing someone would make reference to the gay element, sparking someone taking umbrage, then the usual defensive stance, bit of religion thrown in, some PC - all so predictable.

Interesting, possibly - but how does it push this thread on?

[broadsword]

Another thread predictably descends into the usual nonsense.

Don't you jyst love it? :laugh:

Can't beat a bit of the "usual nonsense".

[adopted scouser]

No comment from the man of Straw on the racist beating in Bank Top

Whilst I agree with your view, that extremists shouting and punching the air are more likely to come from Blackburn's ethnic majority, it should be pointed out that the two arrested for this offence are Kieran Chatburn and Stuart Hartley.

Names that suggest thay are probably more flat cap than niquab.

Yup,

I'ts just that I have more more fun taking the mickey out if intolerent & obsessive chunts like you, than them other idiots

Ishmallah.

No offence Col, but I hope you are on one of those warning thingies for that.

[philipl]

Sorry mods, I was being a ######-stirring troll when I set-up this thread.

Haider was a very unpleasant piece of work who got completely lashed at his favourite gay club before crashing his Government car whilst travelling at double the speed limit.

A somewhat hyperbolic article from Daniel Finkelstein in The Times but it makes the point very strongly that Obama's victory is a massive win for moderation and integration and against the forces of segregation and violence of both left and right.

[blue phil]

Sorry mods, I was being a ######-stirring troll when I set-up this thread.

Haider was a very unpleasant piece of work who got completely lashed at his favourite gay club before crashing his Government car whilst travelling at double the speed limit.

A somewhat hyperbolic article from Daniel Finkelstein in The Times but it makes the point very strongly that Obama's victory is a massive win for moderation and integration and against the forces of segregation and violence of both left and right.

Well , I think we can conclude that Haider was a very tame extremist who didn't advocate violence during his career and died , rather unfortunately , hours after spreading around his particular version of peace and love .

What posting another of your interminable I-love-Obama links has to do with this I just don't know .

Just send him a love letter , Philip , and have done with it .....

[blue phil]

Fact is I do have very little to suggest blue phil is at all enlightened on this subject, and even if he has read texts, it's absolutely no substitute for going somewhere, experiencing the culture and interacting with the people...which I'm almost certain he hasn't done.

More assumptions ; more arrogance . All designed to assert and underline the writer's "education" and qualifications I suspect . Snobbery is alive and well .

All in all , a worthy product of the Cambridge debating society .

(Not quite the Bullingdon Club , though......Oxford probably rejected him)

[tony gale's mic]

More assumptions ; more arrogance . All designed to assert and underline the writer's "education" and qualifications I suspect . Snobbery is alive and well .

All in all , a worthy product of the Cambridge debating society .

(Not quite the Bullingdon Club , though......Oxford probably rejected him)

For you to accuse me of making assumptions when you make so many assumptions about a community you have no real idea about is hypocrisy in the extreme. Bazza said you were extremely well-read on the subject - all I said is that I have seen absolutely no evidence of that in this thread. I also said that it's no substitute for getting in amongst the culture and interacting with the people. That has nothing to do with my "education and qualifications", which incidentally weren't initially brought up by me I think you'll find, and I only mentioned my past success at debating skills when I was challenged about them. No arrogance on this side, although when debating these issues with folks like yourself it can probably come across this way.

Now are you going to extend your selective quoting to my post earlier when I challenged you on your narrow minded views, or are you going to keep proving any of these assumptions I might have? Perhaps you can finally display your immense knowledge on Islamic culture that Bazza was harping on about?