[Archived] Cricket (tests, Odi's And 20/20)

[dave birch]

AiUK, I wouldn't have played Hayden. For me, he's gone, shouldn't have played the last NZ test.

Flopsy, his record as captain is not bad, better than most, even in recent times. It still does not make him a "tosser". If you spoke to him, I think that you might change your mind. Yep, he's had his moments, but haven't we all, I know I have.

[AussieinUk]

being a captain when you have langer, hayden, gilchrist, warne and McGrath in their pomp is probably rather easy, i'm sure that with me as captain they would have won more than they lost. 2005 and india showed that i bit of pressure and the wheels come off. I mean worrying about the run rate compared to actually trying to win a game? That shows a worrying lack of mental aclarity when the pressures on. You'll still hump us next summer

You could have a point on the talent of the team, but I still think some of the credit should go to punter as captain.

For the record;

Ponting as a captain has a 70% win record out of 50 tests (18% were draws).

Waugh finished his test career with an 72% win record as captain, out of 57 tests (12% were draws)

Tubby Taylor had a 52% win record as captain, out of 50 tests (22% were draws)

On the series you have mentioned - The Ashes in 05 was lost by two runs... too close to put that down to an average captain. I will agree with you on the debacle in India, regarding the run rate was poor. If it was me, I would have taken the fine or suspension and pushed for the win, but as dave quite rightly pointed out... we all make errors in our judgments.

Please note, what I have posted above is in no way a 'slight' on the performance of England and India in the respective test series. They deserved the series win.

EDIT: On the Ashes coming up.. still too early to call. Australia has to pay respect to England’s ability, especially at home. Test teams love playing the worlds best and always seem to rise to the challenge.

[Flopsy]

we're two middle order batsman and an opener short plus i have no faith in moores. Other than that, it's nailed on;)

[AussieinUk]

we're two middle order batsman and an opener short plus i have no faith in moores. Other than that, it's nailed on

Guess we'lll see then, but I think you're good enough.. Moores is a little worrying, but you cannot change him now, especially with a such big year coming up...

Adding to my previous post above.. I did a little digging on this and interestingly... Although Punter has a 70% win record in 50 tests, he has actually lost the toss 62% of time.. So if anything, he is not a very good 'tosser'...

Seriously though, Waugh actually won 54% of the toss in his 57 tests and Taylor had won the toss 52% out of his 50 tests (same ratio as his wins)..

[AussieinUk]

Saffa's will probably be into bat within the first ten minutes tomorrow, as Siddle is a complete rabbit with the bat.

Aus finished at 10/375.. Siddle made 23 and not a bad stand of 34 with Crazy ,for the last wicket... Ntini takes 4 for 72.

[Flopsy]

thats near criminal of sa to let you get 375. sa need to get 500 to win this. And that means i need kallis, who i dislike more than simian boy (ponting before hayden gets his knickers in a twist and claim i'm being racist ) will need to get a big big score

[AussieinUk]

thats near criminal of sa to let you get 375. sa need to get 500 to win this. And that means i need kallis, who i dislike more than simian boy (ponting before hayden gets his knickers in a twist and claim i'm being racist ) will need to get a big big score

Flopsy... What were you thinking?

As soon as you posted the above, Kallis was out, caught behind off Johnson and so has his little friend de villiers... Johnson with 4/42!!.

BTW - Kallis is a true legend

EDIT: Now Duminy is out as well.. SA 6/238. Johnson 5/42 and really throwing down some fire..

DOUBLE EDIT: Morkel out to Johnson.. SA 7/241 Midge now moves to 6/42..

TRIPLE EDIT: Harris out to Johnson.. SA 8/241 - Midge is 7/42!! WOW... Johsnon's current bowling spell is 5/2 of 24 balls

[Flopsy]

kallis is a true legend in protecting his average. Which is why i dislike him a hell of a lot more than ponting.

Johnson eh? A bit rubbish and overrated i see

and that's the series

[AussieinUk]

kallis is a true legend in protecting his average. Which is why i dislike him a hell of a lot more than ponting.

Johnson eh? A bit rubbish and overrated i see

and that's the series

C'mon, this one has still got some time to go and is not over yet, plus there is another two more tests.. I still am not really impressed by Siddle (and that is not just beacuse he is Victorian )

I was wrong above Midge's last spell was 5-2-5-5.

Day two goes to Aus, but that is only down to the last 40mins of play..

Re: Kallis - How can you say a person protects his average?

[Flopsy]

the saffers have choked again, the dressing room will be in tatters.

Kallis plays for himself, not the team

[neekoy]

Kallis is overrated. Classy allrounder but netherless overrated.

He has an average around 55 but when you look at the fact he averages less then 40 against Sri Lanka, England and around 35 against Australia and he gets found out.

If you are not scoring regular hundreds against the best test playing nations then you are not world class. Even as a bowler he has had only 5 5 wicket innings.

[AussieinUk]

Kallis plays for himself, not the team

Some could say the same of KP, before he got the captaincy...

Kallis is overrated. Classy allrounder but netherless overrated.

He has an average around 55 but when you look at the fact he averages less then 40 against Sri Lanka, England and around 35 against Australia and he gets found out.

If you are not scoring regular hundreds against the best test playing nations then you are not world class. Even as a bowler he has had only 5 5 wicket innings.

Nope, strongly disagree with both of you. Lets set the record straight... Kallis has 30 test tons to his name..

3 tons vs AUS (and a 99) - 3/4 of those scores are in Australia

4 tons vs ENG - One of those scores at Old Trafford

2 tons vs IND (and a 90) - All in India

The only thing I can agree on is that he hasn't a got a ton against S.I. - his highest is 87*

In the last 12 months of tests, Kallis has six tons and three half tons to his name... Regarding your comment on his bowling.. So what if he has only 5x five fors?... Flintoff has only two! ...and to push that comparision further, Brett Lee has only 10...

He may be getting old (33), but has been a great servant to SA (nearly 10,000 test runs and 245 wickets) and IMV he is (may be WAS is a better word) defin a world class allrounder...

Let me ask you this.. are you telling me (in his pomp), Kallis wouldn't have made an Aussie test XI?

EDIT: Let me also add that he has won 20 MoM awards (1x Aus, 3x Eng & 1x SI) out of his 125 tests and 7 MoS awards and one of those was against Sri Lanka

[Flopsy]

Kallis plays for Not out, he's a dangerous runner who runs out his partners in scary regularity, he is reknowned for playing it safe and never risking his wicket in the aim of winning a game where he might be in danger of getting out.

The only people who ever said KP played for himself was Michael sodding Henderson and some bitter Aussies.

I've never ever seen him not play for the team.

[AussieinUk]

Kallis plays for Not out, he's a dangerous runner who runs out his partners in scary regularity, he is reknowned for playing it safe and never risking his wicket in the aim of winning a game where he might be in danger of getting out.

The only people who ever said KP played for himself was Michael sodding Henderson and some bitter Aussies.

I've never ever seen him not play for the team.

That's not really fair on Kallis, Flopsy... I do remember that the former test Aussie, Keith Stackpole labeled Kallis as a selfish player, but I seriously disagree with his sentiment... he has 33 NO's out of 211 innings... IMV, hardly what you would could a selfish person for a No.5 (and yes he did play some of his career as an opener).

Btw - It's not just those that you mention above, who think that KP has selfish tendencies, many Indian journo's have said the same about KP in the past... Personally, I don’t subscribe to that view, as I think he is a great batsman... the jury is still out for me on his captaincy.

Don't confuse bitter Aussies, with John Buchanan's big mouth...

EDITED: Here is a good South African blurb on Kallis.. maybe a little biased, but still a decent view

"Kallis seems as unloved amongst fans and ‘fundis’ alike as Sobers is loved and revered. His failings are repeated so often they’ve taken on the status of ‘facts’.

a. Cheap runs against minnows: Excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, Kallis’ average drops, but only to 53.6. But look at Sobers through the same lens: excluding India, Pakistan and New Zealand (the minnows of the time), he drops to 53.1. (Even Bradman suffers, averaging ‘only’ 89.8 against England, his only non-minnow opposition.)

b. Shirks his bowling duties: It beats me how people know that Kallis is reluctant to bowl – I’ve never heard anything like this over a stump mike or from a commentator. Somehow the idea took root. For the record, his 21.7 overs per test as 5th bowler doesn’t compare too badly with, say, Flintoff’s 31.3 overs as 3rd or 4th bowler – only 5 overs per innings fewer. And since Kallis has also been SA’s batting mainstay almost from day one, one could argue that bowling him a little less has shown (surprisingly) good resource management by South Africa. Perhaps that is why he was able to bowl 15 overs today at age nearly 33.

c. Bats for himself, not the team, and is slow/boring: I have often been frustrated watching Kallis, especially in ODIs, just wanting him to get on with it. Yet his ODI strike rate is over 70 and one feels he has carried South Africa to victory with a few balls to spare innumerable time. He has 29 ‘Man of the Match’ awards in 274 matches. Ricky Ponting’s strike rate is 80 with 28 ‘Man of the Match’ awards in 301 matches.

But this is the main point: Kallis is not Ponting or Lara or Sehwag. He is not Viv Richards or Barry Richards or indeed Garry Sobers. He came into the South African team when ‘90 for 5’ was our all-too-regular scoreline. In his seventh Test, he had to bat all day against a full-strength Australian attack in Melbourne to save the match. This is how his playing personality was shaped. Kallis took the approach of Rahul ‘The Wall’ Dravid, the path of Steve Waugh, not Mark – eliminating risk, protecting his wicket, allowing others to bat freely by being ‘Mr Reliable’. Calling this selfish is to misunderstand the interplay that cricket imposes between team needs and personal goals. Calling it slow or boring is to ignore one of cricket’s delights, the inch-by-inch battle for domination, as different from the Lara or Sehwag approach as trench warfare is from mounted charges, but no less enthralling. Criticising Kallis for not batting like Lara is like criticising Thelonius Monk for not playing piano like Duke Ellington – it is beside the point.

Kallis’ real problem is that he hasn’t ‘marketed’ himself well. Steve Waugh and Rahul Dravid are rightly revered for their role and contributions – but Kallis is Waugh together with Jason Gillespie in a single player, Dravid and Javagal Srinath rolled into one. He deserves his spot up there with Sobers"

[SouthAussieRover]

There was me hoping we were in for a summer of hard fought cricket...

[AussieinUk]

There was me hoping we were in for a summer of hard fought cricket...

SAR, I wish you wouldn't say those things... I am very superstitious regarding cricket...

SA all out for 281. Aus 94 runs ahead.

Midge finishing with 24-4-8-60... Absolute stellar performance. Siddle got the last wicket of Boucher...

[AussieinUk]

Hayden out for 4... really unlucky in the decision as it wasn't a caught & bowled. Although Hayden wasfacing some real decent bowling by Steyn.

I see that Phil Hughes has made another ton for NSW against the redbacks... Slater saying that if he continues this form, he may get called up to the test squad, after the Ashes series next year..

England looking good with Sehwag out for a duck..

WI off to a shakey start at 4/194, with the Aussie Brendan Nash has made his fifty.. nice work

[Flopsy]

we are, those record beatings dont just arrive, you have to work hard to get them

Bloody Harper's doing us no favours today.

What was Hussey thinking with that shot?

[AussieinUk]

we are, those record beatings dont just arrive, you have to work hard to get them

Bloody Harper's doing us no favours today.

What was Hussey thinking with that shot?

Harper is a doushce bag... no doubt about it.. Bugger me, I go out to dinner, with India 1/8 and come back and thats the score.. Who hasn't pulled their weight on this?!?!?

Btw - Dont get me started on Hussey... over the last couple of innings, he needs his head checked (never mind the fact that this is his home wicket!)

I see Kallis is looking good and keeping the pressure on Aus...

[neekoy]

Flintoff has only two! .

Let me ask you this.. are you telling me (in his pomp), Kallis wouldn't have made an Aussie test XI?

I would rather Flintoff. I will explain why though.

Flintoff is a game breaker, it is the same when I am asked to compare Warne to Murali, Warne was the superior bowler because he made things happen, he changed games.

It is like saying that a bowler who took 200 wickets is better then someone who took 100. On aper it would seeme right but delve a little deeper and you may find the 200 wickets were tail enders whilst the other guy was knocking of the top 3 every match.

I don't see the same qualities about Kallis and I understand exactly what Flopsy is saying.

And yes he would have made the all rounder spot for Australia in a canter but only because we haven't had a decent one for about thirty years.

I certainly wouldn't have picked him for a batting position or bowling.

[AussieinUk]

I would rather Flintoff. I will explain why though.

Flintoff is a game breaker, it is the same when I am asked to compare Warne to Murali, Warne was the superior bowler because he made things happen, he changed games.

It is like saying that a bowler who took 200 wickets is better then someone who took 100. On aper it would seeme right but delve a little deeper and you may find the 200 wickets were tail enders whilst the other guy was knocking of the top 3 every match.

I don't see the same qualities about Kallis and I understand exactly what Flopsy is saying.

And yes he would have made the all rounder spot for Australia in a canter but only because we haven't had a decent one for about thirty years.

I certainly wouldn't have picked him for a batting position or bowling.

I would agree with you on both points.. Flintoff V Kallis (although Kallis is a better batsman) and Murali V Warne. The point being made, was whether Kallis is overrated and selfish in his approach and to the team. Personally, I thought Kallis bowled very well in the second innings, being the pick of the bowlers (Match figures of 29-6-3-89) - Lets see how he performs in the 2nd innings..

Aus now all out for 319 (a lead of 413) Haddin made 94... Good innings, his average is now at a notch above 40.

[AussieinUk]

I guess tomorrow, will see how much of a player Kallis really is...

I must say the game is very much in favor of the Saffa's at the moment... I can't believe some were going to write-off the whole three test series, based on first couple of days of this one....

Btw - Siddle is a joke.

Saffa's were 7-1 at the bookies this morning...

EDIT: Very good work by England to get back into the second test. 9/123 is a strong come back by the bowling unit, considering the slow and solid batting performance of Dravid and Ghambir...

[neekoy]

Wow, just wow.

If you though India's batting performance was something the South Africans have certainly topped it.

What a cracking game.

[Flopsy]

means the death of declarations me thinks

[dave birch]

I'm glad the Saffers won.

It will mean the the Aussies have a good look at their structure, and in that I include Neilsen, Ponting, and one or two of the selectors. There were some woeful decisions made, not just in this test, but in the India tour as well.

With a little bit of thinking, they'll get it right next test.