[Archived] The Sunderland Preview Mark II

[den]

I've avoided the board because I knew it would be like this. We were brilliant in the first half, I thought we lost a bit of drive when Andrews went off and Tugay came on too late.

The biggest problem is that the players keep making mistakes. Every player was guilty of sloppy passing and not running for the ball.

Something I did notice yesterday was how Andrews plays a little differently to the rest of the players. he runs TO the ball and doesn't wait for it, and he plays a good pass and move game. Could this be because he has played under Ince for much longer, so he already understands the style and how to play it?

It's disappointing, yes, but we missed so many chances we only have ourselves to blame. They were clinical, we were not.

As I said yesterday, I only remember rovers creating one chance from open play - Warnock's early miss.

[thenodrog]

How so?

We never come out for the second half, conceded a quick equaliser, heads collectively dropped and we conceded an inevitable second but the tactics/formation were the same at that point as in the first half.

Neither of you two are giving S'land and Keane any credit when it is deserved. It wasn't so much us as them. They changed tactics and came out with all guns blazing , they pressed on Simpson cos he had been left isolated all first half by having nobody in front of him. They expertly exploited the obvious chink in our armour.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

As I said yesterday, I only remember rovers creating one chance from open play - Warnock's early miss.

Obviously you snuck off early, because we somehow managed to miss from about a yard out in the dying moments when the Sunderland box was like the Alamo. It just wouldn't go in.

EDIT: That might have been corner actually.

Either way, why does open play matter? We hit the bar from a different corner.

I fail to see how it being open play and set pieces makes any difference to being clinical?

EDIT2: I agree with that Drog. They came out and really battered us, it was like watching United at times when we just couldn't get near them. The equaliser was inevitable.

[tonygreenbank]

Actually 1864 I agree with your last post entirely as to how we lost the game in the second half. However, I cant agree that Ince has to go because he has lost the dressing room as some people seem to be saying. We played well in the first half and the game should have been 3-0 at halftime. I am sure noone was saying then that Ince has lost the confidence of the team. He was as shocked as the rest of us at what happened in the second half. He had every right to be fuming at the end as his players let him down badly. Ooijer admitted as much on Radio Rovers. The players have to accept blame when they forget the basics of football such as ball control and technique.

We are suffering badly from injuries to key players and Ince must be very frustrated at the lack of a settled team. He knows his best 11 from the current squad but he`s not able to put it out.

it is not very helpful to be saying Ince must go after every setback.

[tony gale's mic]

Actually 1864 I agree with your last post entirely as to how we lost the game in the second half. However, I cant agree that Ince has to go because he has lost the dressing room as some people seem to be saying. We played well in the first half and the game should have been 3-0 at halftime. I am sure noone was saying then that Ince has lost the confidence of the team. He was as shocked as the rest of us at what happened in the second half. He had every right to be fuming at the end as his players let him down badly. Ooijer admitted as much on Radio Rovers. The players have to accept blame when they forget the basics of football such as ball control and technique.

We are suffering badly from injuries to key players and Ince must be very frustrated at the lack of a settled team. He knows his best 11 from the current squad but he`s not able to put it out.

it is not very helpful to be saying Ince must go after every setback.

If he keeps playing his players out of position then what does he expect?

It's far more unhelpful to sit around, pretend everything is alright and watch us slide into the Championship. Noone can logically deny that's the way things are going right now.

We were playing SUNDERLAND at HOME. It's not good enough to say we were good in the first half.

[Laurence]

I call for everyone to be patient and calm and most important of all stay UNITED!!!

Seems to me that we are united.

[Laurence]

After yesterday's performance I'd like to congratulate PI on taking one of the league's less talented players and developing him in to a world class player.

In the second half he made Nyron Nosworthy look like Paolo Maldini.

[joey_big_nose]

Sunderland absolutely took us apart in the second half yesterday. In Jones and Cisse they have a top top quality paring and we just couldn't live with them. Clear game plan for them was get the ball in the air to Jones and look for the knockdowns, and despite Samba doing quite well at clearing his lines ithe ball would just keep on coming back. Jones is one of the best players in the air I have ever seen.

If we had anyone with any pace we could have caused them problems on the counter but we just didn't.

And most depressingly of all we ended up trying to play them at their own game by hoofing the ball in the air to Cruz which didn't help any.

Only when Tugay was introduced did we look like we could hurt them. I bet Ince wished he had brought him on at half time.

I accept that if we had Grella, Dunn and Emerton available we would have probabaly played a lot better, but realistically we do not have the time to wait 4 weeks minimum for them to return. We need a balanced formula now. At the moment it does not look good.

I imagine 'Arry is lookign at the video now thinking about getting the ball in the air to Pav toknock down for Bent. We can't deal with it at all.

I can't see us geting points at Spurs.

[brfcs5359]

As a big Ince fan this was woeful.... If Ince isn't for Rovers then I will be critical. We are heading towards a relegation fight if the last few games are to go by. Everything that was positive is being lost. We were abysmal yesterday. And the players in front of the fans on the pitch falling out with each other was just terrible.

I don't agree with the anti-Ince people who talk rubbish IMO. What I do see is West Brom away, and Sunderland at home, some real problems emerging. Most our problems is our inability to score and put chances away. Up to recently we have gone from a team outplayed (Hughes) to a team who has territorial advantage. So where's it all going wrong?

Jason Roberts mainly. A crucial points he is missing sitters. The ball is coming back so often we are put on the back foot when we should be going forward. And when he fails to score (the easy chances made for him), we then let one in. Yesterday RSC I counted won 5 consecutive balls and Roberts was either AWOL, to busy fighting with the defender, or it bounced right off him. Easy balls into his feet he simply lost possesion. No team can suceed with such a player. And when we replace him with Matt, he too is lightweight and ineffective. We have a real striker problem. And now the pressure has built up RSC missed a sitter and Warnock missed a sitter.

West Brom was the time Roberts should have been kicked out of club. We could have hung on there but he insisted on giving consecutive free kick after consecutive free kick away instead of holding the ball up for his team mates.

Ince is playing players out of position and chopping and changing. Andre Ooijar is our best/most reliable CB yet he does not figure or is messed about. Olson who has played very well wasn't there either. Ince has messed about with Benni and played Fowler who is a PR disaster and a complete waste of time. And Mokoena has looked a much better player than Grella ever will. Worrying when he cost us £4million.

I think we would have been on our way down now had Hughes stayed. Ince has got all the players playing better than last season and despite Bentley and Dunns absence, we have had a lot more possession than previous season. He's got the defence pushing out (the reason we are having more possesion) and looking more ornanised. The gap between the striker and midfield has narrowed and midfielders (who didn't score previously) are scoring. Critically he has sorted the 'set piece' shambles under Hughes, the goal yesterday from a corner.

I think we are now at a very low place. Confidence has clearly ebbed away. Ince has real problems and no amount of pretty football is going to make up for missed chances and poor results.

[den]

Blimey Graham, that's a big turn round for you.

You slate the "anti Ince" fans, but at least they're consistent and haven't changed their views every 45 minutes of football.

[tony gale's mic]

I think we would have been on our way down now had Hughes stayed. Ince has got all the players playing better than last season and despite Bentley and Dunns absence, we have had a lot more possession than previous season. He's got the defence pushing out (the reason we are having more possesion) and looking more ornanised. The gap between the striker and midfield has narrowed and midfielders (who didn't score previously) are scoring. Critically he has sorted the 'set piece' shambles under Hughes, the goal yesterday from a corner.

Nonsense, complete and utter nonsense.

We had improved last season from the previous season, sure you can look at isolated games like Larissa, Wigan and Birmingham but fact is we had more points on the board and a better league position than the previous term. That's a team either staying steady or improving, not a team just about to go down. Hughes will have had a bit of money to spend this summer and not spunked £4 million on utter dross like Grella.

All the players are playing better than last season? Then why are we in the relegation zone?!

The defence look more organised? Then why do we have the joint worst defensive record in the league?

If Hughes had stayed there's no reason to think we wouldnt at least be mid table again right now. All of our previous rivals bar Villa have had sub standard starts and he wouldve at least bought some kind of replacement for Bentley.

[Amo]

Saying we'd be in the same position (or thereabouts) under Hughes is completely hypothetical. It's possible sure, but based on the fact he'd kept us in the top 10, and the prospect of money to invest in a gem or two, I'd be willing to wager more success than we've had so far.

[brfcs5359]

Blimey Graham, that's a big turn round for you.

You slate the "anti Ince" fans, but at least they're consistent and haven't changed their views every 45 minutes of football.

I don't agree with your assessment of Ince that's why. I think playing football, dominating, is the way forward. I did not like Hughes or his style and thought we were going backwards. Set piece goals last season Rovers 12%, Aston Villa 48%. That's just poor management.

I am a Rovers fans and back Ince, however as Ince said post match... there are problems. I am sure he thinks he has contributed because he slated the players in a roundabout way. I think he has contributed to the problems and Robbie Fowler, Jason Roberts, Matt Derbyshire (and to some extent Benni McCarthy) is 80% of that problem. Pederson and not good enough performances from Grella and Andrews and a clanger from Robinson have all added to that.

I think I said Den that we're going tactically in the right way (pass and move) but January is a massive month for Ince.

BTW I think it was John Maynard Keynes who said "When the facts change, my opinion changes"! West Brom was bad and it is clear Ince has his hands full. Getting shut of Jason Roberts will make his job a lot easier.

[AndyC]

good evening folks!

i haven't read any other postings yet on this, so apologies if i'm repeating what's been said.

It was my first live game of the season yesterday and I couldn't have been more excited to be driving down from London, knowing I'd be seeing Ewood Park again! If truth be told, I was part nervous and part excited. I've seen quite a few games on tv, but that's never the same as seeing the game live, and i've been firmly in the 'lets give Ince our support' camp.

So - the game starts and within 5 minutes, we've had 2 very good chances to score.

As the game carries on, I see we're playing a much more fluid game and andrews really caught my eye with his non stop running and excellent one touch football. I counted 2 mistakes in the first 45 mins from him with neither being in a dangerous position. I also thought samba and zurab were playing well. Zurab playing especially well reading the game.

RSC was his usual quality self, but nothing seemed to be sticking to roberts.

simpson at right back was ok, but I was somehow expecting more from him. He didnt get forward very often and his crosses were always intercepted.

Oouijer at left back was a strange decision, considering olsen has been playing well. He's just not quick enough, nor does he have the energy to overlap pederson.

As Samba scored on the stroker of half time, I was relieved that we had gone in 1 nil up and thought it inconceivable that we would lose this game. We were so on top and sunderland looked absolutely woeful.

What a difference 15 minutes makes.

What I saw in the second half shocked me.

It was plain to see that within 10 mins of the re-start, we just couldnt get hold of the ball and re tain possession. In times like that - we were crying out for Tugay, yet he took off andrews and left both the axe and warnock on. Baffling.

I personally would have taken off ouijer, moved warnock back to left mid and put tugay on.

It then went from bad to worse. Players running around not knowing their positions and this all stems from the manager playing people out of position. Warnock may have a good engine, but his positional sense on saturday was terrible.

zurab, who was immense in the first half went awol in the 2nd half along with most of his colleagues.

I still can't quite believe how much we capitulated!

Anyway - what does all this mean moving forwards?

I'm still giving Ince my support, as he needs it now more than ever. BUT - he has to win back a lot of fans, who frankly have wanted him out from day 1. You know who you are.

Do I have a time frame for how long I give him? Yes - I'd give him until the January transfer window opens, and If I was JW, I'd be looking at my contingency plan right now.

He can still back Ince 100%, but nothing wrong with looking at contingencies. We need to be clear of the relegation zone and looking like we're improving.

It's difficult to see how we can go from playing so well in the first half and creating loads of chances, to playing so poorly in the 2nd half.

But one thing really struck me yesterday - We are missing Bentley so much. It's very similar to when Duff left the club. Although they were completely different players, they both drew 2 opposition players to them at all times. Opposition teams knew they had to try and contain them and if they didn't - they would damage them. We simply don't have that kind of threat anywhere on the park, apart from RSC.

Now is the time for some seriously hard work. Fans were speculating that Keano might have been on the verge of leaving having spent so much money and losing the last 4 games, but look at how the fans respond when they win a game.

Let's hop Ince can get 2 good results and get us back up that league.

Up the ROVERS and sorry for the ramble.

[bazza]

Thank goodness. A positive post at last from Andy C.

[bazza]

Just a point for those unaware.

Nelsen and Olsson were not available for selection on Saturday due to illness.

[Tris]

good evening folks!

{...}

Up the ROVERS and sorry for the ramble.

Pretty much spot on Andy. Good ramble.

[Paul]

Three threads on this subject is ridiculous. What happened to the merge facility?

I've a great deal of faith in JW, I said when Ince was appointed we had to hope JW saw things the fans couldn't. The time for the experiment to end has arrived, JW has to face up to reality. Paul Ince is not a PL manager, perhaps he will be one day but he isn't now and Rovers cannot afford to let him learn. Relegation could mean we never return to the PL and the club slips into obscurity. The board have to bite the bullet now. Paul Ince will not lead us away from relegation and he must be replaced at the first opportunity.

Please don't ask me who. I don't care who it is. I'll take Allardyce if it means safety because at the present Rovers are in total freefall and facing certain relegation.

John Williams has to get this right.

I posted the above earlier but I've thought about it more since then. I've changed my view. Why?

1. At Rovers appointing a manager to get out of trouble could saddle us with a manager nobody wants for at least three years. That in itself would be very damaging.

2. Who is available? Not any that would inspire me as a fan. I listened to Sparky talking after the Hull game yesterday - we were spoilt. He is a professional. He made you proud.

3. Financially we could be held to ransom over players, new signings, manager's salary and size of back room squad. It wouldn't work at Ewood

All season I've been worried about several areas:

1. The lack of any buzz around the club

2. Ince doesn't seem to have the personality or aura to inspire either fans or players

3. We don't look professional. I half expect our trainer to run on with a bucket and sponge

4. Our inability to create chances and score goals

5. The message sent out by signing Fowler and Andrews (who is nothing like as bad as everyone suggests). As for the other signings Robinson is as good as we could have hoped for, Grella on the little we've seen looks OK, Carlos is perhaps too lightweight? If Sparky had signed those three I wouldn't have worried about it.

6. Playing players out of position

7. The undercurrent of anti-Ince sentiment and its overtones

I'm not sure if we can get out of trouble with Ince in charge. I'm not sure if he's the right man for Rovers but to be honest until 4.50pm on Saturday I was relatively happy. In fact at 4.00pm on Saturday I was happy enough. It can't be denied there have been signs of some decent football, just as it can't be denied we lack creativity, cutting edge and bodies in the box.

Some are questioning the silence from Ewood this weekend. When was it last headline day on a Sunday at Ewood? 14th May 1995. As regards football I can make any decision I want, John Williams has to make the right decision. That's why he's the chairman and I'm the fan. That's why there is silence from Ewood, it's called reflection.

I don't believe all this cr@p about being late for training. It comes mainly from the usual sources and I wonder about the motivation. So what? I come and go in my job as I wish because I'm doing things the staff don't know about. It's the result that counts. What does worry me about this weekend's events is:

1. The management have publically criticised the players. Unacceptable and unprofessional

2. If the rumoured walk out took place it's possible those players won't return till Friday. Kiss and make-up would have been better done today

3. Not having the players available till Friday is frightening in itself, regardless of other problems

4. Why did we totally collapse in the second half? What happened to the confidence? Even my wife knew Roy Keane was going to b0llock his players into a better performance and she wasn't there!!

There's far too much ranting and raving on here. The massive anti-Ince sentiment is as detrimental to the club as the results we are getting. It's contributed to the continued decline in quality on the MB. I don't have confidence in Ince but that's not my problem. It's one for John Williams who I have every confidence in. Williams will be aware of the above and more PLUS he will know the true picture at Ewood. If Williams thinks Ince should stay that's good enough for me and it should be for everyone else.

I think the solution is to surround Ince with some experienced PL men. A couple of good coaches, not Venables but that type of scenario.

Sacking the manager is not the answer.

[thenodrog]

Three threads on this subject is ridiculous. What happened to the merge facility?

THEY BOTH RESIGNED!

I posted the above earlier but I've thought about it more since then. I've changed my view. Why? ERR MUST BE COS THE EDIT FACILITY'S GOOSED TOO?

[Paul]

[CrazyIvan]

Well said Chris!

[RevidgeBlue]

Three threads on this subject is ridiculous. What happened to the merge facility?

I posted the above earlier but I've thought about it more since then. I've changed my view. Why?

1. At Rovers appointing a manager to get out of trouble could saddle us with a manager nobody wants for at least three years. That in itself would be very damaging.

2. Who is available? Not any that would inspire me as a fan. I listened to Sparky talking after the Hull game yesterday - we were spoilt. He is a professional. He made you proud.

3. Financially we could be held to ransom over players, new signings, manager's salary and size of back room squad. It wouldn't work at Ewood

All season I've been worried about several areas:

1. The lack of any buzz around the club

2. Ince doesn't seem to have the personality or aura to inspire either fans or players

3. We don't look professional. I half expect our trainer to run on with a bucket and sponge

4. Our inability to create chances and score goals

5. The message sent out by signing Fowler and Andrews (who is nothing like as bad as everyone suggests). As for the other signings Robinson is as good as we could have hoped for, Grella on the little we've seen looks OK, Carlos is perhaps too lightweight? If Sparky had signed those three I wouldn't have worried about it.

6. Playing players out of position

7. The undercurrent of anti-Ince sentiment and its overtones

I'm not sure if we can get out of trouble with Ince in charge. I'm not sure if he's the right man for Rovers but to be honest until 4.50pm on Saturday I was relatively happy. In fact at 4.00pm on Saturday I was happy enough. It can't be denied there have been signs of some decent football, just as it can't be denied we lack creativity, cutting edge and bodies in the box.

Some are questioning the silence from Ewood this weekend. When was it last headline day on a Sunday at Ewood? 14th May 1995. As regards football I can make any decision I want, John Williams has to make the right decision. That's why he's the chairman and I'm the fan. That's why there is silence from Ewood, it's called reflection.

I don't believe all this cr@p about being late for training. It comes mainly from the usual sources and I wonder about the motivation. So what? I come and go in my job as I wish because I'm doing things the staff don't know about. It's the result that counts. What does worry me about this weekend's events is:

1. The management have publically criticised the players. Unacceptable and unprofessional

2. If the rumoured walk out took place it's possible those players won't return till Friday. Kiss and make-up would have been better done today

3. Not having the players available till Friday is frightening in itself, regardless of other problems

4. Why did we totally collapse in the second half? What happened to the confidence? Even my wife knew Roy Keane was going to b0llock his players into a better performance and she wasn't there!!

There's far too much ranting and raving on here. The massive anti-Ince sentiment is as detrimental to the club as the results we are getting. It's contributed to the continued decline in quality on the MB. I don't have confidence in Ince but that's not my problem. It's one for John Williams who I have every confidence in. Williams will be aware of the above and more PLUS he will know the true picture at Ewood. If Williams thinks Ince should stay that's good enough for me and it should be for everyone else.

I think the solution is to surround Ince with some experienced PL men. A couple of good coaches, not Venables but that type of scenario.

Sacking the manager is not the answer.

Exellent post Paul, such a refreshing change to read a balanced view on this m/b these days as opposed to all the tripe trotted out by the usual suspects who never wanted Ince in the first place.

The only thing I would take issue on is with the criticism of the players. I thought Ince was absolutely spot on with his comments, RSC and Samba grafted like trojans and Tugay did very well when he came on. The rest just hid quite frankly.

Now I don't think Ince can say anything at all positive about that second half display without losing even more credibility with the fans. He was completely honest about it and personally I applaud him for that.

That said he ultimately carries the can for results and they have to change sooner rather than later.

Having had a couple of days to reflect though, the more convinced I am than ever that this is not a time for kneejerk reactions and Ince needs to be given every possible chance.

I'm guessing that one of the things that persuaded the Board to hand the job to Ince was a belief he would give the younger players a fairer crack of the whip and concentrate more on youth development in general in the long term.

That is something that will take time.

I do agree with those who say there will be no way back (or at best it will be very difficult) if we do go down though.

[den]

Exellent post Paul, such a refreshing change to read a balanced view on this m/b these days as opposed to all the tripe trotted out by the usual suspects who never wanted Ince in the first place.

Is that as opposed to all the usual tripe trotted out by all the usual suspects who wanted Ince in the first place, Rev?

[RevidgeBlue]

Is that as opposed to all the usual tripe trotted out by all the usual suspects who wanted Ince in the first place, Rev?

Or maybe merely those that wanted him to be given a chance.

[den]

Or maybe merely those that merely wanted him to be given a chance.

It was a joke Rev and that's as good as it gets with me.

He's never been denied his chance has he?