[Archived] Paul Ince

[almuncle]

What's wrong with support tights Bwian? The wee is a problem admittedly but provide me with evidence that support tights won't be able to turn this around? They'll come good given time and if they don't then they'll go down. In the mean time I'll continue to support them just as they have supported me.

By the sounds of it a good run won"t be far off either!

[nicko]

Got to say that Tris's point earlier about there being no point in going over ground is spot on.

The only thing that matters is the Wigan game on Saturday, probably the biggest game in your recent history.

[roverfanuk]

Got to say that Tris's point earlier about there being no point in going over ground is spot on.

The only thing that matters is the Wigan game on Saturday, probably the biggest game in your recent history.

Nicko, is their any update at all on the takeover front? I just asked in the takeover topic however you might not have seen it?

[broadsword]

Nicko, is their any update at all on the takeover front? I just asked in the takeover topic however you might not have seen it?

Great news!

We're being taken over by Northern Rock!

[nicko]

Nicko, is their any update at all on the takeover front? I just asked in the takeover topic however you might not have seen it?

None at all, to my knowledge.

[bob fleming]

Keep this up, sunny, and I shall stick a half-chewed wham bar in your hair. Ha!

If your tights go down mate, it'll be years before you get it up again. Decades, maybe never.

OK Bwyan - you win. That's quite enough mild whimsical musings for one day. Back to reality now. I notice we still haven't won a game this week.

We're staring into the abyss and no mistake. No amount of "giving people time" is going to improve my mood. Did anyone buy a program on Saturday? Made for grim reading; every single team, from the youth's to the reserves and the first team, every match report was a defeat. The Ladies team got a point though.

So we're skint. Hull are linked to a Man Utd reserve team striker for £8m today. We couldn't even shell out some of the Bentley money for a right winger, and now that cash appears to have gone as well. And if it hasn't I'll be amazed and delighted come January.

Still - it's not all over yet. I'll get behind them again V Stoke (can't make Wigan).

One Love / Keep The Faith / Smilie with a Santa Hat / Blue & White Kit symbol etc etc

[Paul]

It’s been suggested those who are pro-Ince or, at least, do not support his dismissal fail to provide any arguments to support him remaining as manager. Hopefully I’m going to put a part of the case. First I need to make clear:

I did not support Ince’s appointment

Our football this season has been some of the worst I’ve seen at Ewood in recent years. After the Sunderland game I would happily have seen Ince leave

I make my judgements solely on what I see on the pitch. I have no time, and never have, for all the rumour, tittle tattle and tabloid headlines. My position is to wait for the club’s position to be stated. I think Williams has been slow on this all season but that’s where we are. The bulk of this thread is nothing more than rumour and tittle tattle. If half were true Ince might well be dismissed regardless of results. Every word or action from Ince is analysed and then spun in a negative fashion and is partly responsible for building the head of steam demanding his sacking. No poster or journalist has provided any substantial evidence to back up the numerous claims made against Ince.

JW and TF are the men in a position to judge the true position. Why do the fans suddenly doubt them?

Last Saturday the crowd and team had the opportunity to respond and demonstrate their views on Ince. It seems to me this was, at worse, neutral or at best supportive. For the first time the team looked to have more desire and the crowd did not turn against the manager en masse.If we stick with Ince the club know where it stands and what the problems are. Changing managers presents a whole set of new problems. Any ne w appointment will be made with a view to securing PL status and the next 3 years. One has to assume we already have a three year plan in place with Ince. Any current planning will be blown away with the salary demands of a new manager, his support staff and new signings. We do not have any money. £5m in January will not save the club. It’s conceivable we simply cannot afford to replace Ince.

There is nothing to suggest a new manager will encourage players to stay, nothing to suggest a new man won’t upset others. A new manager will cost the club a fortune in half a season in compensation to Ince et al, new players, new staff etc. It could leave the club utterly unable to compete in the transfer market next season.

There is little one can say to support Ince other than we had a glimmer of improvement on Saturday. However what many on here are failing to consider are the implications of dismissing him now. Leaving Ince in place means we know exactly the task we face. Bringing in a new manager gives the club a whole set of new and different issues.

The gamble is huge. Stick with Ince, stay within the budgets and risk relegation but with the knowledge parachute payments might get us back in a year. Alternatively spend millions now, probably all of next season’s spare cash, risk relegation in the knowledge there would be nothing left in the pot.

I can’t justify Ince remaining on past performance, I’m not sure he’s the right man for the club but to date nobody has put forward a sound argument as to the right man. Allardyce is the popular choice – a man who 3000 of you voted against last summer compared with +/-350 who have voted against Ince today. All the thought against Ince is short term, Williams has to think for the long term.

So my ramblings can be summarised as this. We are in deep, deep trouble. The club have to gamble, the choices are:

Stick with Ince and put every effort in to resolving the problems

Sack Ince, bring in a new manager and players, spending every penny we have

Should we do this for the short or long term

Given the choices I feel the club are right to stick with Ince and find ways to support him through this crisis. Next summer the board can then take time to assess the situation and decide who is the right man to take Rovers forward. I also feel Williams is going to back his man and if we go down, both Ince and Williams may leave.

Me? I’ve decided to go to Wigan on Saturday to do my bit and to gauge what I hear around me.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Wot he said

I see your Pro-Ince thread got canned again

[Tris]

philipl - why do you invent stuff like this -

The players' agents who are hawking at least half the first team squad round the rest of the Premier League will be looking at the League Table and knowing a relegation will smash their (the agents') earning power irrespective of whatever Managerial inspiration is being offered at Brockhall.

That is one reason I believe yesterday's board meeting relegated us.

... and this -

ten games of Derby County performances (that is the reality of three points from 30- it is the same as eleven points from 38) has slashed at least £13m off the amount Rovers can expect to earn in 2008/9 compared with 2007/8.

That is the difference between having £20m to spend and having £5m to spend.

Mr Ince has just earned that drop in his transfer funds from his brilliant stewardship of the last ten games.

and come out with stuff like this -

My attitude is we are down already and frankly so do the fans.

when all it does is turn from fabrication + speculation into perceived reality, because you repeat it all so often?

How exactly is it helping anyone?

[broadsword]

I think what's clear is that nothing is going to happen until Saturday (well, other than some training, hopefully).

Until we know the result against Wigan (and I'm not saying what I think it'll be ...) it's pointless. I think there's such an outpouring on here because people are rightly frustrated and worried. It's natural to seek an outlet.

Maybe things will change after the Wigan result (and a draw does us no favours really - we need to start potting blacks, not yellows and greens). Maybe they won't.

But right now, I'm heartily sick of it all.

[only2garners]

I pretty much agree with all of Paul's post. My difference would be. that whilst I wasn't ecstatic when Ince was appointed, it seemed to me at the time a reasonable call, replicating the model of success with Hughes. OK, he didn't have the benefit of having played for us and indeed was one of those players you loved to hate, but he did have successful club management experience in difficult situations, more than Hughes did. Despite the views of some on here he was probably the most popular option from the final shortlist. Certainly he must have been preferable to the man who 3,000 took the time to vote against on Facebook.

Hughes had the "advantage" of taking over a team at the bottom and replacing a manager who had become extremely unpopular. Everyone accepted a backs to the wall attitude and some dreadfully dull football to get us out of a mess. In contrast, Ince has come into a hiding to nothing position - given the fact that a complete new backroom team was appointed over the Summer we were highly unlikely to replicate last year's finish.

My position was that we have to give a new manager at least half a season before making any judgement, so I've not offered an opinion as yet. Of course I'm worried by recent form, but it's no good saying one thing in August and then panicking after a few bad results.

There seems to have been a small number of fans who have never accepted Ince as manager and have continually told us so for months. They have been joined recently by others starting to panic, who now seem to be the most strident, posting pretty much every page the same opinions, presumably on the assumption that we all have the attention span of gnats. On the other hand we have a small group who are doing the same in Ince's defence.

My assumption is that there is currently a majority of fans who would like Ince to go, although I doubt it is really the 75/20 split of the poll on here.

Paul points out above the dangers of a knee jerk reaction. I don't think the last two performances (poor at Old Trafford, decent against Liverpool) should have significantly changed the position - after all defeats were always the most likely outcome.

I'll be at Wigan. I fear what will happen if we go behind. I suspect we will get some constant Ince Out chanting, which will in all likelihood force him out and will be a victory for the mob - I just hope that, if that is what you wish, you have the next step worked out.

That's my opinion - I won't be defending it ad nauseam for the next 10 pages - life's too short.

[grizfoot]

Well summed up there Paul.

Sacking Ince now would cost money that could be used on strengthing the squad in January. Although some would argue Ince would only waste the money on inadequate signings anyway. Maybe a transfer adviser may be need if we are to keep Ince, or maybe this would seen as undermining him.

I know it's all rumours and everything but I do feel that this Wigan game could be the final straw for Ince should we not win. Feel a bit more confident after Saturday's imporved performance, was also glad to see the fans behind the team. Wigan is usually the best away supported game of the season for Rovers hopefully we'll get a similiar backing from the supporters at the game. Remember the ideal outcome is that Ince manages to turn this around and get us back to winning ways.

[Manc Rover]

Well summed up there Paul.

Sacking Ince now would cost money that could be used on strengthing the squad in January. Although some would argue Ince would only waste the money on inadequate signings anyway. Maybe a transfer adviser may be need if we are to keep Ince, or maybe this would seen as undermining him.

I know it's all rumours and everything but I do feel that this Wigan game could be the final straw for Ince should we not win. Feel a bit more confident after Saturday's imporved performance, was also glad to see the fans behind the team. Wigan is usually the best away supported game of the season for Rovers hopefully we'll get a similiar backing from the supporters at the game. Remember the ideal outcome is that Ince manages to turn this around and get us back to winning ways.

A transfer adviser is generally used when the manager is more of an out-an-out coach and can concentrate on that side (in a continental stylie). Mr Ince doesn't even qualify as a coach!! Instead, he sends out his team of dinosaurs to coach premier league players in a Unibond league fashion - has them totally unprepared for matches, no system, no tactics and an utter shambles! I'm praying that by giving him some support, he can turn it around but we need to get rid of the chuckle brothers (Knox and Matthias) and get some proper coaches in.

[roversmum]

I'm not happy. I supported Ince when he came but he has shown me nothing to give me belief that he is up for the job. He has been doing a Bentley with the press and I am not convinced that all is rosy with the players. If he can pull us out of the mire I'd be delighted but I have no faith.

The supporters on Saturday were clearly behind the players. It is my belief it was the players and the club they were showing support for, not the manager. Again I would be delighted to be proved wrong. I only hope I am for the sake of my beloved club.

[FourLaneBlue]

It seems obvious that Ince will be staying for the Wigan game so there is little point doing much but hope we will win that and so we can support the team.

We are at the stage now where all that matters is getting a win. We cannot afford to think about what will be best in the long run...we have no long run!

We need 3 points at Wigan and whatever happens after that can wait.

[roverfanuk]

We are at the stage now where all that matters is getting a win. We cannot afford to think about what will be best in the long run...we have no long run!

No offence, but thats the kind of thinking that got us here in the first place.

This club needs to be thinking more long-term then the likes of Chelsea and Manu. Their financial futures are garenteed, ours is not... Especially with relegation under the current manager looming!

[FourLaneBlue]

No offence, but thats the kind of thinking that got us here in the first place.

No offence but you need to look at the table. We are more than a win away from getting out of the relegation zone.

How you possibly think we do not need desperately need a win from anywhere bemuses me.

Your infatuation with Llewellyn Curbishley has clouded your judgement. We don't have a Carlos Tevez to save him if he comes in this time.

[1864roverite]

I agree totally with Rovermum, it was about the team rather than Ince on saturday.

I dont want people to forget that even though Rover showed a little more desire on Saturday it was still very poor fare. We hardly created and the midfield were swamped by a pass and move outfit whilst ours simply stood still.

I am joining the ranks at pieland on Saturday and I will support my team. However, to dampen whatever fervour there is I am going to Wigan NOT expecting anything other than a defeat.

I am still to be convinced this management team can pull off a job. I want Ince out but will be satisifed with a change of staff. Matthias simply has to go as well as winterburn.

A defeat on Saturday has to be the back breaker of the Williams "lets wait and see" decision. I hope he has got it right and I hope we win.

The traffic out of wigan is the worst ever and I dont want to be sat in the car fuming at yet another inept display to come home and listen to the same old excuses of recent times.

[FourLaneBlue]

Especially with relegation under the current manager looming!

We are getting to the stage where if we lose a few more -maybe even the next one might be a loss too far - we will be relegated under any manager who comes in either.

[American]

There is a lot of historical revisionism going on but

1) Friedel was not let out of the door until Robinson was signed - FACT

2) Ince told JW that Emerton was his Bentley replacement - nobody seems to be disputing that and mosdt of the press carried the story at the time

Lee disputed it when he said that a deal for a right winger fell through at the end of the day on the 31st.

(Speaking of historical revisionism.)

[T4E]

We are getting to the stage where if we lose a few more -maybe even the next one might be a loss too far - we will be relegated under any manager who comes in either.

Agreed. I could understand the thinking behind the "take a loss, get rid, be stronger in the long run" stance - but we cannot afford to think that way any longer. We could be miles adrift by the end of Saturday if we lose - if we win and other results go our way for once we'll be goals rather than points off 17th.

Lee disputed it when he said that a deal for a right winger fell through at the end of the day on the 31st.

Lee also said that Friedel put a transfer request in the day after Hughes left. Then Brad was quoted in the press saying JW had assured a new manager would be in soon and laterly that he looked forward to working with Paul Ince. Hardly the words of a man on the transfer list of his own accord.

[Blue blood]

Brilliant post Paul, considered all the implications of our dire situation, and added yet more credability to the fact that rovers may well be financially powerless to give Ince the boot.

HOWEVER I disagree and feel a new manager MUST be appointed.Why? Well other than Ince being utterly shocking - reason enough imo - I feel it's the best investment we can make with our money.

We don't have enough to invest our way out of trouble - buy the 4/5 class players we need with performances being as they are at the moment. And besides a couple of injuries to these personnel (even if we could scrape together the cash) and we're no better off.

A new manager can lift all the personnel at the club - and potentially improve ALL of the playing staff. Imagine getting back a consistent and high level of performance from the likes of Pedersen, Roberts, Nelsen, Ooijer and so on.

This to me is a far better investment of our money as on paper we've some talented players not performing, and many of our errors are workable on. A good manager should get us much better organised, marking tighter, passing neater - all of which would make us so much harder to beat and see us picking up points. As much of what is wrong with our team seems basic stuff, a decent manager should be able to do this.

Yes it's not guarenteed but nothing is. The squad is miles better than that which Hughes had to keep us up and a good manager should be able to keep us up with the players we have. Hull, Stoke etc. are also proof of this.

[Scotty]

The best thing for Blackburn Rovers is that the current management team turn things around and become successful. This will save us any compensation payments, ensure continuity and stability, and delay having to appoint a new manager (always a risky business).

Personally, I've very little faith that Ince and co can turn things around, but the board have clearly decided to give them more time so the best thing we can do is get our collective arses down to Wigan and get behind the team at the weekend. A win will gives us a bit of much-needed confidence going into the next game and who knows, we could go on a little run.

[RovertheHill]

For now everyone's energy should be focussed on that because at the end of the day, 3 points is the best outcome for the club.

Absolutely correct but very easy to say and difficult to do. Let's be frank, pretty much everyone on here has the clubs best interests at heart and we can't focus. Do you really think that with the deafening silence behind him Paul Ince will be able to motivate a bunch of overpaid and spoilt footballers (and more importantly their agents) to give their best for him and the club? I hope he can, but I doubt it

[JAL]

It’s been suggested those who are pro-Ince or, at least, do not support his dismissal fail to provide any arguments to support him remaining as manager. Hopefully I’m going to put a part of the case. First I need to make clear:

I did not support Ince’s appointment

Our football this season has been some of the worst I’ve seen at Ewood in recent years. After the Sunderland game I would happily have seen Ince leave

I make my judgements solely on what I see on the pitch. I have no time, and never have, for all the rumour, tittle tattle and tabloid headlines. My position is to wait for the club’s position to be stated. I think Williams has been slow on this all season but that’s where we are. The bulk of this thread is nothing more than rumour and tittle tattle. If half were true Ince might well be dismissed regardless of results. Every word or action from Ince is analysed and then spun in a negative fashion and is partly responsible for building the head of steam demanding his sacking. No poster or journalist has provided any substantial evidence to back up the numerous claims made against Ince.

JW and TF are the men in a position to judge the true position. Why do the fans suddenly doubt them?

Last Saturday the crowd and team had the opportunity to respond and demonstrate their views on Ince. It seems to me this was, at worse, neutral or at best supportive. For the first time the team looked to have more desire and the crowd did not turn against the manager en masse.If we stick with Ince the club know where it stands and what the problems are. Changing managers presents a whole set of new problems. Any ne w appointment will be made with a view to securing PL status and the next 3 years. One has to assume we already have a three year plan in place with Ince. Any current planning will be blown away with the salary demands of a new manager, his support staff and new signings. We do not have any money. £5m in January will not save the club. It’s conceivable we simply cannot afford to replace Ince.

There is nothing to suggest a new manager will encourage players to stay, nothing to suggest a new man won’t upset others. A new manager will cost the club a fortune in half a season in compensation to Ince et al, new players, new staff etc. It could leave the club utterly unable to compete in the transfer market next season.

There is little one can say to support Ince other than we had a glimmer of improvement on Saturday. However what many on here are failing to consider are the implications of dismissing him now. Leaving Ince in place means we know exactly the task we face. Bringing in a new manager gives the club a whole set of new and different issues.

The gamble is huge. Stick with Ince, stay within the budgets and risk relegation but with the knowledge parachute payments might get us back in a year. Alternatively spend millions now, probably all of next season’s spare cash, risk relegation in the knowledge there would be nothing left in the pot.

I can’t justify Ince remaining on past performance, I’m not sure he’s the right man for the club but to date nobody has put forward a sound argument as to the right man. Allardyce is the popular choice – a man who 3000 of you voted against last summer compared with +/-350 who have voted against Ince today. All the thought against Ince is short term, Williams has to think for the long term.

So my ramblings can be summarised as this. We are in deep, deep trouble. The club have to gamble, the choices are:

Stick with Ince and put every effort in to resolving the problems

Sack Ince, bring in a new manager and players, spending every penny we have

Should we do t