[Archived] Paul Ince

[JAL]

It’s been suggested those who are pro-Ince or, at least, do not support his dismissal fail to provide any arguments to support him remaining as manager. Hopefully I’m going to put a part of the case. First I need to make clear:

I did not support Ince’s appointment

Our football this season has been some of the worst I’ve seen at Ewood in recent years. After the Sunderland game I would happily have seen Ince leave

I make my judgements solely on what I see on the pitch. I have no time, and never have, for all the rumour, tittle tattle and tabloid headlines. My position is to wait for the club’s position to be stated. I think Williams has been slow on this all season but that’s where we are. The bulk of this thread is nothing more than rumour and tittle tattle. If half were true Ince might well be dismissed regardless of results. Every word or action from Ince is analysed and then spun in a negative fashion and is partly responsible for building the head of steam demanding his sacking. No poster or journalist has provided any substantial evidence to back up the numerous claims made against Ince.

JW and TF are the men in a position to judge the true position. Why do the fans suddenly doubt them?

Last Saturday the crowd and team had the opportunity to respond and demonstrate their views on Ince. It seems to me this was, at worse, neutral or at best supportive. For the first time the team looked to have more desire and the crowd did not turn against the manager en masse.If we stick with Ince the club know where it stands and what the problems are. Changing managers presents a whole set of new problems. Any ne w appointment will be made with a view to securing PL status and the next 3 years. One has to assume we already have a three year plan in place with Ince. Any current planning will be blown away with the salary demands of a new manager, his support staff and new signings. We do not have any money. £5m in January will not save the club. It’s conceivable we simply cannot afford to replace Ince.

There is nothing to suggest a new manager will encourage players to stay, nothing to suggest a new man won’t upset others. A new manager will cost the club a fortune in half a season in compensation to Ince et al, new players, new staff etc. It could leave the club utterly unable to compete in the transfer market next season.

There is little one can say to support Ince other than we had a glimmer of improvement on Saturday. However what many on here are failing to consider are the implications of dismissing him now. Leaving Ince in place means we know exactly the task we face. Bringing in a new manager gives the club a whole set of new and different issues.

The gamble is huge. Stick with Ince, stay within the budgets and risk relegation but with the knowledge parachute payments might get us back in a year. Alternatively spend millions now, probably all of next season’s spare cash, risk relegation in the knowledge there would be nothing left in the pot.

I can’t justify Ince remaining on past performance, I’m not sure he’s the right man for the club but to date nobody has put forward a sound argument as to the right man. Allardyce is the popular choice – a man who 3000 of you voted against last summer compared with +/-350 who have voted against Ince today. All the thought against Ince is short term, Williams has to think for the long term.

So my ramblings can be summarised as this. We are in deep, deep trouble. The club have to gamble, the choices are:

Stick with Ince and put every effort in to resolving the problems

Sack Ince, bring in a new manager and players, spending every penny we have

Should we do this for the short or long term

Given the choices I feel the club are right to stick with Ince and find ways to support him through this crisis. Next summer the board can then take time to assess the situation and decide who is the right man to take Rovers forward. I also feel Williams is going to back his man and if we go down, both Ince and Williams may leave.

Me? I’ve decided to go to Wigan on Saturday to do my bit and to gauge what I hear around me.

History teaches us that to resolve the problem Ince has to be removed, a new manger along with new players HAVE to come in, if it means spending every penny then so be it, as this is not only the short term remedy but part of the long term startegy Rovers have no other route to go down .

Key is can Williams and co. find the right man after this debacle which has been a sorry, sorry episode in the clubs history.

[bellamy11]

I am in absolute agreement with the honourable FLB - we simply must win on Saturday, even if it would upset the people who want Ince out. Three weeks ago perhaps (just perhaps) it would have been beneficial to drop points if it resulted in Ince's dismissal. Rightly or wrongly, the chairman - whom I have the greatest respect for - has kept his faith in Ince.

We absolutely cannot afford to lose on Saturday or we could very well be cut adrift. There's no point having Mourinho in charge if you're already relegated. The tipping point was a couple of weeks ago - we now need every single point make no mistake. Stating that losing on Saturday is good for the long term is completely suicidal, especially because it looks like we will be keeping Ince regardless.

I have every faith that we will come out of this struggle but more than anything we need people pulling in the same direction. It could very well be too late to have an anti-Ince agenda - if we get much worse, we will go down. That means we need Ince to come good and we need the team to come good.

JW will have chosen Ince because he believed him to be a winner. As a general rule, he always has been. Now the manager must show that - and we have to let him.

[roverfanuk]

No offence but you need to look at the table. We are more than a win away from getting out of the relegation zone.

How you possibly think we do not need desperately need a win from anywhere bemuses me.

Your infatuation with Llewellyn Curbishley has clouded your judgement. We don't have a Carlos Tevez to save him if he comes in this time.

I have looked at the table which is why i want Ince gone...

If we win one and then loose six that would be ok for you i take it? But it's not ok if we loose against Wigan and then win the next five?

As for your comment about me wanting Curbs at the club. If you had any idea of how sad that little snipe made you look, you would be cringing like i am right now...

Your reasoning is flawed and ultimately goes against what the majority is thinking, ie. Ince needs to go...

It's quite obvious people like you cant hold a civilized debate, so im just going to leave it there with you...

[thenodrog]

That is how it should be done, it should not be possible for someone to manage a Premiership football club without first obtaining all their badges under any circumstances!

Well normally it isn't and special dispensation from the Chairmen of each of the other Prem clubs was needed in this case. As far as our situation with Paul Ince the colour of his skin easily outweighed any requirement for coaching qualifications in the opinions of the powers that be. For some unknown reason it was seen by press, media and obviously the Premier League itself as a big plus point to have a black person managing a Premier League team whatever the extent of his ability.

[philipl]

Lee disputed it when he said that a deal for a right winger fell through at the end of the day on the 31st.

(Speaking of historical revisionism.)

Two points- this squabble arose because of eroneous comments made by Paul Ince.

- Bentley was transferred on 31 July and the two transfer bids that failed were on 1 September. Friedel wasn't allowed out without a replacement having already been signed; surely Bentley should not have been treated better than Friedel was unless Mr Ince was actually telluing the truth when he said Emerton was his Bentley replacement.

[Mr Creosote]

Well normally it isn't and special dispensation from the Chairmen of each of the other Prem clubs was needed in this case. As far as our situation with Paul Ince the colour of his skin easily outweighed any requirement for coaching qualifications in the opinions of the powers that be. For some unknown reason it was seen by press, media and obviously the Premier League itself as a big plus point to have a black person managing a Premier League team whatever the extent of his ability.

Hold on......dont you say we shouldn't keep mentioning the colour of Paul Ince's skin?

[thenodrog]

So they employ some unskilled numpty for £1.5m per year, credit Revidge Blue, credit, are you having a laugh!

..... on a long contract apparently!

[Darth Paul]

Hold on......dont you say we shouldn't keep mentioning the colour of Paul Ince's skin?

Good call! See my comments in the Oliver Holt thread...Thenodrog can't make his mind up whether we should talk about skin colour or not, which is ironic because he keeps changing the colour of his!

[thenodrog]

Got to say that Tris's point earlier about there being no point in going over ground is spot on.

The only thing that matters is the Wigan game on Saturday, probably the biggest game in your recent history.

You've used that phrase about 3 times! Stop going over old ground.

[mick]

the argument that the compensation package for ince and co would seriously impact on money available in january is chump change when you consider what relegation will do to brfc. yes i know that i am one of those fans who don't go down to ewood because i live in canada, however, i have witnessed first hand two relegations from england's top division with the rovers and it is not in the best interests of either the club or its fans.

other clubs in the uk have dispensed with the services of their respective managers and some have turned things around. others in europe have dispensed with the services of their managers and hope to turn things around. Just about all of the recent sackings have involved managers with far more experience, credentials and success than paul ince. i was hopeful that he might produce a more attractive footballing team and early results and performance indicated that he might be on the right track. he has since been exposed; lacking both tactical nous and the ability to motivate his team to get results.

i was dead set against his appointment having met the man and disliking him as a person. i did set personal feelings aside and hoped that he might have changed. he hasn't. his personal arrogance has him clinging to the notion that he can get the result in the second half.

that notion comes from ince the player; supported by ten other players and any astute substitutions made for him by his manager. he is now the astute manager not the hard driving midfielder. his substitutions have not been that astute. his team selection has been woeful and they are no longer attractive to watch. in most games recently rovers have reminded me of a lower division playing a prem team in the fa cup, hopeful of getting a result only if they play their best and the prem outfit has an off day! rovers haven't played their best but neither have the teams that they have played rovers simply do not have enough talent,playing their best football, on the field. that is ince's job and he has failed in this one prerequisite...being a good manager.

he is not ready to be a premier league manager.

[FourLaneBlue]

I have looked at the table which is why i want Ince gone...

If we win one and then loose six that would be ok for you i take it? But it's not ok if we loose against Wigan and then win the next five?

As for your comment about me wanting Curbs at the club. If you had any idea of how sad that little snipe made you look, you would be cringing like i am right now...

Your reasoning is flawed and ultimately goes against what the majority is thinking, ie. Ince needs to go...

It's quite obvious people like you cant hold a civilized debate, so im just going to leave it there with you...

OK let´s get something straight...I want Ince gone regardles of the result on Saturday. The man is not up to the job. So what are you talking about regarding my "reasoning¨ being "flawed and ultimately goes against what the majority is thinking, ie. Ince needs to go..."...

I want Ince gone regardles of the result on Saturday. I have posted this again and again since the Sunderland game. My point is that we cannot afford to lose any games regardless or by the time any manager comes in we will not be salvagable.

So try and get your facts straight.

As for "people like you"...and you think I should be the one cringing....

[roverfanuk]

Let´s get something straight...my "reasoning is flawed and ultimately goes against what the majority is thinking, ie. Ince needs to go..."...I want Ince gone regardles of the result on Saturday. I have posted this again and again since the Sunderland game. My point is that we cannot afford to lose any games regardless.

So try and get your facts straight.

What good apart from gaining 3 points will it do, in the aim of getting rid of Ince then?

What im saying is, if we scrape a win against Wigan or even achieve a draw, it might make the board think twice.

The fact is, Ince should be gone now, and i think a defeat against Wigan might benefit the club longterm more then a defeat. However twisted it sounds...

[FourLaneBlue]

What good apart from gaining 3 points will it do, in the aim of getting rid of Ince then?

What im saying is, if we scrape a win against Wigan or even achieve a draw, it might make the board think twice.

The fact is, Ince should be gone now, and i think a defeat against Wigan might benefit the club longterm more then a defeat. However twisted it sounds...

The fact is Ince is not gone yet and seeing our board falling over themselves to do nothing it could take ages.

We need to be picking up points and now.

Even people like me can see that.

[sam_rovers]

The only person more incompetent than Ince is that buffoon Nigel Winterburn; How can a man so inept come out and defend Ince. It's obvious that the lot of them have to go and I'm really really disappointed that the board has bottled the decision and not sacked them.. I hope we win at Wigan, but I wouldn't be surprised to see players played out of position(again), Robinson giving away soft goals(again), and our strikers standing around with very little service and when they do get their chances they'll miss (again)

[American]

Two points- this squabble arose because of eroneous comments made by Paul Ince.

- Bentley was transferred on 31 July and the two transfer bids that failed were on 1 September. Friedel wasn't allowed out without a replacement having already been signed; surely Bentley should not have been treated better than Friedel was unless Mr Ince was actually telluing the truth when he said Emerton was his Bentley replacement.

Bentley had already (allegedly) thrown the toys out of the pram and was being a disruptive influence. Brad was, as always, ever the professional and doing his job while he still was employed by Rovers.

[den]

Well done Paul, for trying to get this topic back on track. You make some good points that others agree with. I'll take some of them up as well. Your comments in bold.

First off, JW and TF are the men in a position to judge the true position. Why do the fans suddenly doubt them?. The problem with that from my point of view is that neither of them have exactly demonstrated their faith in Ince turning this around. I suggest exactly the opposite. Now I know you don't accept anything written in the newspapers, but last weekend three or four of them ran a story saying that JW was asking the people at Sunderland whether they intended taking Allardyce on as manager. The story was that they had Souness and Tugay ready as back up. It might have been an absolute load of cobblers, but - if that was untrue, then why didn't JW shoot down those stories? Surely those stories were big enough to cause a lot of unrest for Ince and the fans. Damaging enough to merit some comment, if they were untrue surely?

Last Saturday the crowd and team had the opportunity to respond and demonstrate their views on Ince. It seems to me this was, at worse, neutral or at best supportive. We've done this to death, but IMO there was no pointer that anyone could take from the crowd on Saturday

If we stick with Ince the club know where it stands and what the problems are. Changing managers presents a whole set of new problems. Any ne w appointment will be made with a view to securing PL status and the next 3 years. One has to assume we already have a three year plan in place with Ince. I'm not sure knowing where it stands is a lot of help, when we're seemingly going out of the Prem. Again, - the three year plan - it's all gone wrong already hasn't it? Whatever it was, surely this wasn't part of it. Is Ince capable of delivering a one year plan, I wonder?

The gamble is huge. Stick with Ince, stay within the budgets and risk relegation but with the knowledge parachute payments might get us back in a year. We did that once with Jack Walkers financial backing. I suggest there's no way we could come back again within the parachute payment term. We go down, we lose the vast majority of the better players we have. We would IMO, be a long way off having a squad to compete with the top clubs in the Championship. The better players would want to leave and even if they didn't, the club would likely push them out. The contracts we pay now surely couldn't be met in the lower league.

Given the choices I feel the club are right to stick with Ince and find ways to support him through this crisis. Next summer the board can then take time to assess the situation and decide who is the right man to take Rovers forward. I also feel Williams is going to back his man and if we go down, both Ince and Williams may leave. If there's a need to assess the situation, then surely the time to do that is now, not when it's too late. As for your last comments here, if JW was to leave, I think it would be more to do with the trusts backing/lack of.

So, I thought I'd try to respond to a thoughtful post, with a thoughtful reply. At the end of the day, all this comes down to judgement doesn't it? Is Ince the right man for BRFC? At the moment I think not. However, like you I will be at Wigan shouting as loudly as I can through this 'flu, hoping for three points. And if he can follow that by winning a few more games and taking us out of the drop zone I'll be delighted. If he can't do that, then he'll get what he gets from the fans, he'll just have to be strong enough to deal with it. After all, he is the Guv'nor isn't he. I'll add one more thing, I wont be one jeering or booing him - never done that. What will be will be. Nowt anyone on here will be able to do about that.

Interesting to see who responds to your post.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Thank you guys ( Paul and Den ) for those measured and carefully chosen words. Both of you encapsulate the dilemma we and the board face. I nailed my colours to the mast a while back but I'm grateful that you both took the trouble to deal with both sides of the issue in an adult way, thanks again. Tyrone

[imy9]

Well done Paul, for trying to get this topic back on track. You make some good points that others agree with. I'll take some of them up as well. Your comments in bold.

First off, JW and TF are the men in a position to judge the true position. Why do the fans suddenly doubt them?. The problem with that from my point of view is that neither of them have exactly demonstrated their faith in Ince turning this around. I suggest exactly the opposite. Now I know you don't accept anything written in the newspapers, but last weekend three or four of them ran a story saying that JW was asking the people at Sunderland whether they intended taking Allardyce on as manager. The story was that they had Souness and Tugay ready as back up. It might have been an absolute load of cobblers, but - if that was untrue, then why didn't JW shoot down those stories? Surely those stories were big enough to cause a lot of unrest for Ince and the fans. Damaging enough to merit some comment, if they were untrue surely?

Last Saturday the crowd and team had the opportunity to respond and demonstrate their views on Ince. It seems to me this was, at worse, neutral or at best supportive. We've done this to death, but IMO there was no pointer that anyone could take from the crowd on Saturday

If we stick with Ince the club know where it stands and what the problems are. Changing managers presents a whole set of new problems. Any ne w appointment will be made with a view to securing PL status and the next 3 years. One has to assume we already have a three year plan in place with Ince. I'm not sure knowing where it stands is a lot of help, when we're seemingly going out of the Prem. Again, - the three year plan - it's all gone wrong already hasn't it? Whatever it was, surely this wasn't part of it. Is Ince capable of delivering a one year plan, I wonder?

The gamble is huge. Stick with Ince, stay within the budgets and risk relegation but with the knowledge parachute payments might get us back in a year. We did that once with Jack Walkers financial backing. I suggest there's no way we could come back again within the parachute payment term. We go down, we lose the vast majority of the better players we have. We would IMO, be a long way off having a squad to compete with the top clubs in the Championship. The better players would want to leave and even if they didn't, the club would likely push them out. The contracts we pay now surely couldn't be met in the lower league.

Given the choices I feel the club are right to stick with Ince and find ways to support him through this crisis. Next summer the board can then take time to assess the situation and decide who is the right man to take Rovers forward. I also feel Williams is going to back his man and if we go down, both Ince and Williams may leave. If there's a need to assess the situation, then surely the time to do that is now, not when it's too late. As for your last comments here, if JW was to leave, I think it would be more to do with the trusts backing/lack of.

So, I thought I'd try to respond to a thoughtful post, with a thoughtful reply. At the end of the day, all this comes down to judgement doesn't it? Is Ince the right man for BRFC? At the moment I think not. However, like you I will be at Wigan shouting as loudly as I can through this 'flu, hoping for three points. And if he can follow that by winning a few more games and taking us out of the drop zone I'll be delighted. If he can't do that, then he'll get what he gets from the fans, he'll just have to be strong enough to deal with it. After all, he is the Guv'nor isn't he. I'll add one more thing, I wont be one jeering or booing him - never done that. What will be will be. Nowt anyone on here will be able to do about that.

Interesting to see who responds to your post.

I have read the thread for three days and its like the British buses, nothing arrives and then two arrive at the same time! Posts instead of buses that is.

I agree with most of what Den and Paul have said and I think the realisation is clear for everyone, we MUST stay in the premier league, now whether that is with Ince or someone else is down to the board. I am extremely depressed to think that the board can find £5 million for Ince for January when we have received three times that amount in fees alone this year, that is seperate from TV money. Out of interest if Ince does not sign Carlos, is that another £4 million in the coffers?

I think that our best hope lies with getting Dunn, Grella and co fit and healthy and purchasing a couple of pacy wingers/strikers.

[Bobby G]

We are all discussing relegation!

This is a team that was pushing for Europe every season. Some people should look at the wider perspective and know that Ince has put us down in the dumps. Survival will make us all happy this season and thats so disappointing...

The team has my support as in every game, and I hope we beat Wigan, otherwise we are doomed.

[Manchester Blue]

Lee also said that Friedel put a transfer request in the day after Hughes left. Then Brad was quoted in the press saying JW had assured a new manager would be in soon and laterly that he looked forward to working with Paul Ince. Hardly the words of a man on the transfer list of his own accord.

So you're accusing Lee of lying? I've known Lee put a positive spin on things for obvious reasons. I've also known Lee be pretty candid in private as long as things aren't made public. However in all my time I can never remember an occasion when he has come out and outright lied about something. More often than not he will keep back stuff he knows for obvious reasons again but that is a bit different from lying.

[Paul]

First off, JW and TF are the men in a position to judge the true position. Why do the fans suddenly doubt them?. The problem with that from my point of view is that neither of them have exactly demonstrated their faith in Ince turning this around. I suggest exactly the opposite. Now I know you don't accept anything written in the newspapers, but last weekend three or four of them ran a story saying that JW was asking the people at Sunderland whether they intended taking Allardyce on as manager. The story was that they had Souness and Tugay ready as back up. It might have been an absolute load of cobblers, but - if that was untrue, then why didn't JW shoot down those stories? Surely those stories were big enough to cause a lot of unrest for Ince and the fans. Damaging enough to merit some comment, if they were untrue surely?

I agree we haven't publically demonstrated faith in Ince, on the other hand it would be easier for JW to sack him and appoint Allardyce? So in a sense that Ince is still here shows some suppport. it bothers me that JW is hedging his bets in public, he needs to come down on one side or the other. On the press issue, I do believe the newspapers, the ones that report what actually happened. On Saturday we had two Rovers stories - one dealing with Ince's everyone is against me outburst which was a factual report of his press conference. The second was the Sunderland / Souness / Tugay thing - nicko reported this and in defending the story on here confirmed other papers had the story from the same source. On Sunday nicko followed that up with a wildly inaccurate piece in the People which I was tempted to pull apart as it contained nothing which can be substantiated - this is the journalism which i don't believe as it has one purpose, money. Frankly I can't be bothered to deal with the inaccuarcies in his reporting because it is always written in a manner to provide a get out. Very clever.

Last Saturday the crowd and team had the opportunity to respond and demonstrate their views on Ince. It seems to me this was, at worse, neutral or at best supportive. We've done this to death, but IMO there was no pointer that anyone could take from the crowd on Saturday

I agree there was no real pointer from the crowd except one is always more likely to hear from unhappy people than happy fans. I felt the lack of a "riot", which I expected, said a lot.

If we stick with Ince the club know where it stands and what the problems are. Changing managers presents a whole set of new problems. Any ne w appointment will be made with a view to securing PL status and the next 3 years. One has to assume we already have a three year plan in place with Ince. I'm not sure knowing where it stands is a lot of help, when we're seemingly going out of the Prem. Again, - the three year plan - it's all gone wrong already hasn't it? Whatever it was, surely this wasn't part of it. Is Ince capable of delivering a one year plan, I wonder?

Knowing the position, no matter how bad, is preferable to the unknown. Current situation is we are going down and the manager isn't good enough but JW believes, or did believe, in him. If one accepts we are skint what resources we have can be used to solve the problems rather than pay off the management team and then throw money we haven't got at the transfer window. As for a three year plan it has obviously gone wrong. What I was trying to get at is the club will have budgets in place based on discussion with Ince, to start all over again sets us back even further.

The gamble is huge. Stick with Ince, stay within the budgets and risk relegation but with the knowledge parachute payments might get us back in a year. We did that once with Jack Walkers financial backing. I suggest there's no way we could come back again within the parachute payment term. We go down, we lose the vast majority of the better players we have. We would IMO, be a long way off having a squad to compete with the top clubs in the Championship. The better players would want to leave and even if they didn't, the club would likely push them out. The contracts we pay now surely couldn't be met in the lower league.

You're probably right though wouldn't we have one year at £25-30m from the parachute payments? That could be enough but it would have to be an immediate promotion.

Given the choices I feel the club are right to stick with Ince and find ways to support him through this crisis. Next summer the board can then take time to assess the situation and decide who is the right man to take Rovers forward. I also feel Williams is going to back his man and if we go down, both Ince and Williams may leave. If there's a need to assess the situation, then surely the time to do that is now, not when it's too late. As for your last comments here, if JW was to leave, I think it would be more to do with the trusts backing/lack of.

The situation has been assessed, the board are backing Ince for the time being.

So, I thought I'd try to respond to a thoughtful post, with a thoughtful reply. At the end of the day, all this comes down to judgement doesn't it? Is Ince the right man for BRFC? At the moment I think not. However, like you I will be at Wigan shouting as loudly as I can through this 'flu, hoping for three points. And if he can follow that by winning a few more games and taking us out of the drop zone I'll be delighted. If he can't do that, then he'll get what he gets from the fans, he'll just have to be strong enough to deal with it. After all, he is the Guv'nor isn't he. I'll add one more thing, I wont be one jeering or booing him - never done that. What will be will be. Nowt anyone on here will be able to do about that.

Interesting to see who responds to your post.

I'll see you at Wigan then, if my cold alows me to cheer I will!

[T4E]

Don't put words in my mouth Christian.

I have raised previously the peculiarity of Lee's announcement in comparison with the things Brad was saying to the press at the same time. Thus far no explanation has been given. If there is one I'd very much like to hear it.

[Mc Love]

Come on Incey do a Keany (as you call him)!

MUPPET...totally not happy that he hasnt been sacked yet. We should be aiming to win more than nine games! More than that!!!

[BuckyRover]

Some great comments on here tonight. Really appreciate them. I believe this is our epiphany. We accept this is what we, Blackburn Rovers are, and we deal with it. Maybe the effort displayed by the players wasn't primarily about Ince, maybe it was the support they received from the fans. It is always difficult replacing a successful manager and we need to me the twelfth man, infighting never got anybody anywhere. Let's all pull together and continue to ruffle a few feathers in the Premier league, for many years to come.

Up the rovers! Let's make them play well!!!

[The Prof.]

Not at all, there are many managers in the Championship with top flight experience -

Mick McCarthy

Alex McLeish

Steve Coppell

Dave Jones

Neil Warnock

Chris Coleman

Paul Sturrock

Paul Jewell

Glenn Roeder

Suddenly that looks a likely list. But all of them will b given funds larger than ours - OHhhhh!