[Archived] Paul Ince

[Ste B]

Oh am I?

I'm sick of this. I say anything positive and I get people calling me a paullette and jumping on anything I say. It's pointless.

Frisky Jim WAS trolling... I wouldn't take much notice of what he had to say.

[CrazyIvan]

QUOTE (Ste B @ Nov 19 2008, 19:32 ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Frisky Jim WAS trolling... I wouldn't take much notice of what he had to say.

Yeah, he is on my ignore list.

[tonygreenbank]

Aside of all the bitching.

I personally think if Paul Ince gets it right on Sunday and then away at Pompy then he will still find himself on a sticky wicket because of the fact that we cannot or havent addressed our home form. What he doesnt need is the resurgent Liverpool team rolling into Ewood backed up by 7500 thieves, because in all liklihood they will steal points against us (as well as a few cars no doubt).

Should we fail with any points out of the next available 9, then when we play Wigan and Stoke, the pressure will be so intense that I think it will become infectious on the whole club, but most importantly the fans at the matches.

Rovers have to be looking at the New Year with a minimum of 20 points on the board before the FA Cup 3rd round becuase after that it becomes so much harder to get the points.

I just dont see the New Year impetus for Rovers like we have seen over recent years when we have gone on a run and bagged say 20 plus points from 30 on offer.

I am pretty sad to see no comments from John WIlliams about our predicament and position, which remain perilous.

I genuinely want the guy to come good, but, with the current level of player fitness, the current backroom staff, I fail to see a way out of our current position. I know its tight but points have to be won and quickly.

If Ince wins us over great, if the failure is prolific, and by that I mean lose the next 3 games or fail to take at least 7 points from the next 15 the club have no option but to sack him or to take such action to replace the other backroom staff.

Yes it is a hard call but sacking managers is always a tough decision to make, it just has to be done at the right moment and that moment is imminent.

[1864roverite]

Have you forgot to write something TG?

[tonygreenbank]

Totally ignore the previous post! Sorry.

Ince can never win in this poster`s eyes.

[1864roverite]

Read the post properly, at the moment he cant do anything right but he can if he learns and admits his mistakes and proves us wrong.

I would love to see him right the wrongs and make a success of it BUT like many others there isnt a shred of evidence to suggest that he has it in his locker.

[den]

Ince can never win in this poster`s eyes.

Let me ask a question open to anyone, related to your post. The appointment of Ince has polarised views, more than any other appointment, from the moment his name was mentioned. Obviously a lot of posters weren't convinced that he would make a good manager for Rovers. Why were there more doubts about Ince?

Do you think there was good reason to doubt his appointment, or do you think that posters simply aren't as clued up as in previous years?

Compare the poll on Ince's appointment, with that of Mark Hughes HERE.

Why is that?

[CrazyIvan]

Let me ask a question open to anyone, related to your post. The appointment of Ince has polarised views, more than any other appointment, from the moment his name was mentioned. Obviously a lot of posters weren't convinced that he would make a good manager for Rovers. Why were there more doubts about Ince?

Do you think there was good reason to doubt his appointment, or do you think that posters simply aren't as clued up as in previous years?

Genuinely there are reasons and were reasons to doubt Ince's appointment. Absolutely no doubt about that. He hasn't rid me of my doubts. BUT he is the manager of Rovers and as such should get support from the fans until such times as he has proven himself unworthy of that support. That should be based solely on his performance as Rovers manager though. Nobody is requiring that everybody love Ince but that people get behind him as manager. That DOES NOT mean blindly following and agreeing with his every decision. That to me is fair.

[den]

Genuinely there are reasons and were reasons to doubt Ince's appointment. Absolutely no doubt about that. He hasn't rid me of my doubts. BUT he is the manager of Rovers and as such should get support from the fans until such times as he has proven himself unworthy of that support. That should be based solely on his performance as Rovers manager though. Nobody is requiring that everybody love Ince but that people get behind him as manager. That DOES NOT mean blindly following and agreeing with his every decision. That to me is fair.

Yes, but that isn't the question that I asked. I asked why so many people had doubts about Ince, when those doubts weren't there for Hughes.

It's a serious question. What were the doubts?

[Tris]

Compare the poll on Ince's appointment, with that of Mark Hughes HERE.

Why is that?

Den - following your own methods here - but Mark Hughes wasn't available when Paul Ince was one of the choices for our manager.

[BuckyRover]

Let me ask a question open to anyone, related to your post. The appointment of Ince has polarised views, more than any other appointment, from the moment his name was mentioned. Obviously a lot of posters weren't convinced that he would make a good manager for Rovers. Why were there more doubts about Ince?

Do you think there was good reason to doubt his appointment, or do you think that posters simply aren't as clued up as in previous years?

Compare the poll on Ince's appointment, with that of Mark Hughes HERE.

Why is that?

Hughes had played for the club less than 3 years earlier, including a great performance in our win against Spurs in Cardiff.

Do you think that might have had some bearing on the vote?

[den]

Den - following your own methods here - but Mark Hughes wasn't available when Paul Ince was one of the choices for our manager.

But what were the doubts about Ince? That's what I'm asking.

Hughes had played for the club less than 3 years earlier, including a great performance in our win against Spurs in Cardiff.

Do you think that might have had some bearing on the vote?

No. Do you think people weren't convinced about Ince because he hadn't played for the club?

C'mon guys a serious question - why were so many posters not happy about Ince's appointment?

[Look4Me]

Hughes had played for the club less than 3 years earlier, including a great performance in our win against Spurs in Cardiff.

Do you think that might have had some bearing on the vote?

I would think that mattered. He already had a positive image from his playing time.

Also, I would imagine, it helped him following Souness who wasn't so popular in the end. Most were happy to get a new manager at the time, while Ince has to live up to what Hughes has accomplished, and with him leaving before most people wanted him to, it would always be hard for Ince to take over..

[den]

I would think that mattered. He already had a positive image from his playing time.

Also, I would imagine, it helped him following Souness who wasn't so popular in the end. Most were happy to get a new manager at the time, while Ince has to live up to what Hughes has accomplished, and with him leaving before most people wanted him to, it would always be hard for Ince to take over..

Question again: why were so many not happy about Ince's appointment?

[RevidgeBlue]

C'mon guys a serious question - why were so many posters not happy about Ince's appointment?

Don't know den, it's certainly a strange one, when Ince arrived he ticked all the boxes.

Young, superb playing record, former England international, captain of his country and had made an excellent start to his managerial career.

Although when you say "he's polarised opinion more than any other appointment" I don't think that's strictly correct, most people seemed far more opposed to the idea of Allardyce as boss at that point.

[Parsonblue]

Question again: why were so many not happy about Ince's appointment?

I don't think there is an easy answer to that question. When Mark Hughes left everyone had their own particular favourite to become manager with their own reasons for making that choice. I felt Big Sam would have been ideal because of what he did at Bolton.

The reservations I had about Paul Ince all related to his previous experience. A couple of seasons of European football have meant more Sunday games and given me the opportunity to spend several Saturdays watching Accrington Stanley. I honestly believe that the gulf between the Premiership and the bottom division is greater than it has ever been. Football at that level is a different game and has more in common with the Rovers of the seventies than the Rovers of today. In the past when we have plucked managers from the lower divisions we have been in the Third or Second Division ourselves and so the difference has been insignificant.

I have always believed that it would take Paul Ince at least a season to find his feet in the Premiership and still do. His ambitions to play attractive football, while praiseworthy, are not realistic when facing the likes of the top four. A more pragmatic approach is required and, unfortunately, at the moment he has been a little too inflexible in his thinking. There will be games - and a good many of them if we remain near the bottom - where the team will have to battle for points to pull away from the relegation zone.

I also believe that the manager has been loyal to his backroom staff at MK Dons in bringing them to Ewood Park, but I'm not convinced that he wouldn't have been better served by making a fresh start with a group of coaches who were more experienced in the Premiership. While I accept that Archie Knox is an experienced coach, the coaches that Mark Hughes had were around the same age as the manager and were closer in age to the players who could, perhaps, relate to them more easily.

Talking to friends who are all Rovers supporters it is clear that the fanbase is split with regard to the manager. Hopefully, Paul Ince will turn things around and pull the club clear of the relegation zone. He needs time but the next three fixtures, on paper at least, offer little hope of an immediate recovery.

However, ultimately, the future of the club is far more important than the personalities involved. Relegation must be avoided at all costs as it could well put the future of the club in doubt. Only John Williams knows if he and his fellows directors have faith in the manager to retain Premiership status. If they believe that they appointed the right man in the summer then they must back him with money in January.

[The Harwood Yankee]

I don't think there is an easy answer to that question. When Mark Hughes left everyone had their own particular favourite to become manager with their own reasons for making that choice. I felt Big Sam would have been ideal because of what he did at Bolton.

The reservations I had about Paul Ince all related to his previous experience. A couple of seasons of European football have meant more Sunday games and given me the opportunity to spend several Saturdays watching Accrington Stanley. I honestly believe that the gulf between the Premiership and the bottom division is greater than it has ever been. Football at that level is a different game and has more in common with the Rovers of the seventies than the Rovers of today. In the past when we have plucked managers from the lower divisions we have been in the Third or Second Division ourselves and so the difference has been insignificant.

I have always believed that it would take Paul Ince at least a season to find his feet in the Premiership and still do. His ambitions to play attractive football, while praiseworthy, are not realistic when facing the likes of the top four. A more pragmatic approach is required and, unfortunately, at the moment he has been a little too inflexible in his thinking. There will be games - and a good many of them if we remain near the bottom - where the team will have to battle for points to pull away from the relegation zone.

I also believe that the manager has been loyal to his backroom staff at MK Dons in bringing them to Ewood Park, but I'm not convinced that he wouldn't have been better served by making a fresh start with a group of coaches who were more experienced in the Premiership. While I accept that Archie Knox is an experienced coach, the coaches that Mark Hughes had were around the same age as the manager and were closer in age to the players who could, perhaps, relate to them more easily.

Talking to friends who are all Rovers supporters it is clear that the fanbase is split with regard to the manager. Hopefully, Paul Ince will turn things around and pull the club clear of the relegation zone. He needs time but the next three fixtures, on paper at least, offer little hope of an immediate recovery.

However, ultimately, the future of the club is far more important than the personalities involved. Relegation must be avoided at all costs as it could well put the future of the club in doubt. Only John Williams knows if he and his fellows directors have faith in the manager to retain Premiership status. If they believe that they appointed the right man in the summer then they must back him with money in January.

Excellent post. I think you sum up for me why I felt so apprehensive when Ince was appointed. I also thought Allardyce was the obvious choice and couldnt understand why so many Rovers fans were so opposed to him. Bolton are a similar club to us in terms of funds, fanbase, geography, and aspirations. I know many Bolton fans and all of them would take Sam back in a second. Ignore Newcastle - thats just a poisoned chalice. What Allardyce achieved at Bolton was reminiscent of what Hughes did for Rovers - taking little known players and turning them into stars, and attracting the occasional big name for a season or two - achieving a top 8 finish which the club probably wouldnt achieve otherwise. I'm not in the least bit surprised that Ince has steered us into the relegation zone and I cant see him turning it round. We might narrowly escape going down, but its going to be a grim season of mediocre football and moronic press interviews from Ince. I dont understand why some people on here think 'getting behind whoever the boss is' is the same as supporting the club. If you genuinely support the club then you dont want to see them go down and if you believe the manager isnt up to the job then getting rid as soon as possible and getting a grown-up into the job is the best way to support the club.

[tony gale's mic]

Don't know den, it's certainly a strange one, when Ince arrived he ticked all the boxes.

Young, superb playing record, former England international, captain of his country and had made an excellent start to his managerial career.

Although when you say "he's polarised opinion more than any other appointment" I don't think that's strictly correct, most people seemed far more opposed to the idea of Allardyce as boss at that point.

I don't know what boxes you were after.

Young? I'd rather have someone with top level experience.

Superb playing record? Means nothing. How many of the big four managers had a superb playing record?

Former England international? Ditto.

Captain of his country? Maybe means something a little more as he would have needed some grips of leadership, but again look at how many successful managers had captained their country - only a handful of them.

Excellent start to his managerial career? At a level far, far lower than ours.

Hughes had masterminded excellent results against the likes of Italy, Argentina, Germany, Croatia, Czech Republic etc as manager of Wales and he'd been manager for the last five years. He had managed top level players and come up against top quality managers and beat them tactically. He also inspired more confidence in interviews.

Ince had been managing for two years and hadnt come up against any remotely tough opposition. I was also concerned by some of the interviews he was giving around the time that England were looking for McLaren's successor. For someone to still insist the England manager had to be English even after what happened seemed to indicate a pretty backwards thinking man. There were other interviews too that just didnt reflect too well on him.

[Tris]

Hughes had masterminded excellent results against the likes of Italy, Argentina, Germany, Croatia, Czech Republic etc as manager of Wales and he'd been manager for the last five years. He had managed top level players and come up against top quality managers and beat them tactically. He also inspired more confidence in interviews.

Is that the same Mark Hughes who can no longer mastermind some of the most expensive players in the world to beat the likes of Hull, Spurs, Bolton, Boro, Newcastle, Wigan and Brighton???

Maybe he lost his magic touch whilst working at nasty little Rovers, eh?

[47er]

Question again: why were so many not happy about Ince's appointment?

[/quote

When Hughes was appointed he was replacing Souness, that in itself was a cause for rejoicing. Plus he was popular as a player and had been an absolute star in the Worthy Cup Final and helped us get promoted. He'd also done a great job with Wales. Whats not to like?

Ince by contrast was replacing one of the best managers we'd ever had and we all worried about any successor meeting those standards. To that extent I feel sorry for Ince, Hughes was a hard act to follow. he had ltd experience in very lower leagues but had done well.ndobtedly it was a gamble. Plenty didn't like him fom his days as a player.

That's about it as far as I can see. I thought he'd do alright,but many of his decisions have been bewilderingly bad.

[tony gale's mic]

Is that the same Mark Hughes who can no longer mastermind some of the most expensive players in the world to beat the likes of Hull, Spurs, Bolton, Boro, Newcastle, Wigan and Brighton???

Maybe he lost his magic touch whilst working at nasty little Rovers, eh?

One poor run after big top level performances in taking us to three top ten finishes and Wales fifty places up the FIFA rankings isnt that significant, especially when there's only two players that are that expensive in there (Robinho and Jo) - both of whom were forced on Hughes. Not so sure about Jo, Robinhos done excellent so far but is just one player after all.

Got any more irrelevant points for me Tris, or are you done for the night?

[philipl]

My reservations about Ince were:

- no formal qualifications and the reasons being given indicating a lack of intelligence as much as anything

- a lack of personal presence which suggested that the authority of being highly capped and playing with top clubs that worked down the leagues might not transfer to having similar clout with players with not dissimilar CVs and frankly earning a lot more money at Ewood

- reputation and bearing of being a bit of an inarticulate bully

- a man whose only comments about the Rovers had hitherto been 100% negative and that horrific interview with James Richardson which crossed the line to being gratuitously and vindictively nasty about our great club

I am now scared witless because:

- he seems to have zero appreciation and understanding that he inherited a club that came 7th last season and with the resources at his disposal should be challenging for UEFA qualification

- his transfer dealings are wierd and little sign he isn't going down the Keane route of importing friends and lower league players

- his inablity to organise a team to give top 4 clubs a challenging game

- Sunderland second half and the very real threat of relegation

- I have heard enough to think that if he survives the current crisis and gets through January at Rovers, he has close to zero ability to pull us round if we have another slump later in the season (and look at the March/April fixture list- we need a buffer of 9 points above 18th going into that particular tunnel)

[dingles staying down 4ever]

I don't think there is an easy answer to that question. When Mark Hughes left everyone had their own particular favourite to become manager with their own reasons for making that choice. I felt Big Sam would have been ideal because of what he did at Bolton.

The reservations I had about Paul Ince all related to his previous experience. A couple of seasons of European football have meant more Sunday games and given me the opportunity to spend several Saturdays watching Accrington Stanley. I honestly believe that the gulf between the Premiership and the bottom division is greater than it has ever been. Football at that level is a different game and has more in common with the Rovers of the seventies than the Rovers of today. In the past when we have plucked managers from the lower divisions we have been in the Third or Second Division ourselves and so the difference has been insignificant.

I have always believed that it would take Paul Ince at least a season to find his feet in the Premiership and still do. His ambitions to play attractive football, while praiseworthy, are not realistic when facing the likes of the top four. A more pragmatic approach is required and, unfortunately, at the moment he has been a little too inflexible in his thinking. There will be games - and a good many of them if we remain near the bottom - where the team will have to battle for points to pull away from the relegation zone.

I also believe that the manager has been loyal to his backroom staff at MK Dons in bringing them to Ewood Park, but I'm not convinced that he wouldn't have been better served by making a fresh start with a group of coaches who were more experienced in the Premiership. While I accept that Archie Knox is an experienced coach, the coaches that Mark Hughes had were around the same age as the manager and were closer in age to the players who could, perhaps, relate to them more easily.

Talking to friends who are all Rovers supporters it is clear that the fanbase is split with regard to the manager. Hopefully, Paul Ince will turn things around and pull the club clear of the relegation zone. He needs time but the next three fixtures, on paper at least, offer little hope of an immediate recovery.

However, ultimately, the future of the club is far more important than the personalities involved. Relegation must be avoided at all costs as it could well put the future of the club in doubt. Only John Williams knows if he and his fellows directors have faith in the manager to retain Premiership status. If they believe that they appointed the right man in the summer then they must back him with money in January.

Excellent post ParsonBlue but I'd like to discuss a couple of points:-

i. Sam Allerdyce was not the fans' choice because the media's football experts had deemed his football negative and boring. They emphasised that everytime they mentioned Bolton and never really made a big song and dance over the good job he did at Bolton. Bolton played football in the final third of the field and not wasted time playing neat foootball where it does not hurt teams. This was like Rovers' press appearance of being a dirty side. Someone has made a point on this MB that he was not as good without Phil Brown as his assistant and that may have been an issue. Like Rovers, Bolton appointed a midfielder from a massive club promosing bright passing football quickly and it did not work. The Bolton realised their mistake and acted.

ii. Ince learning curve - He does need time to adapt to the premiership but if thats the case he should not have tried changing a 'successful' style of play so quickly. Hughes had drilled that style into his regiment of troops. He should of assessed what he had first as there were no coaching staff left who pass on judgement. Like Hughes, Ince has brought a team of coaches whom he has trusted. The difference is that all Hughes' coaches are Pro qualified where Ince, I suspect, like himself are not.

Once he had taken time to assess he should now be tinkering with it rather than rebuilding it. As the palying squad changes then is the time to change of play.

Ultimately his change of style may work but at present it is not. The change over time is time I suspect Rovers, as a club, do not have.

[Paul]

edit

[Parsonblue]

Excellent post ParsonBlue but I'd like to discuss a couple of points:-

i. Sam Allerdyce was not the fans' choice because the media's football experts had deemed his football negative and boring. They emphasised that everytime they mentioned Bolton and never really made a big song and dance over the good job he did at Bolton. Bolton played football in the final third of the field and not wasted time playing neat foootball where it does not hurt teams. This was like Rovers' press appearance of being a dirty side. Someone has made a point on this MB that he was not as good without Phil Brown as his assistant and that may have been an issue. Like Rovers, Bolton appointed a midfielder from a massive club promosing bright passing football quickly and it did not work. The Bolton realised their mistake and acted.

ii. Ince learning curve - He does need time to adapt to the premiership but if thats the case he should not have tried changing a 'successful' style of play so quickly. Hughes had drilled that style into his regiment of troops. He should of assessed what he had first as there were no coaching staff left who pass on judgement. Like Hughes, Ince has brought a team of coaches whom he has trusted. The difference is that all Hughes' coaches are Pro qualified where Ince, I suspect, like himself are not.

Once he had taken time to assess he should now be tinkering with it rather than rebuilding it. As the palying squad changes then is the time to change of play.

Ultimately his change of style may work but at present it is not. The change over time is time I suspect Rovers, as a club, do not have.

I fully agree with both points that you make.

The media may not like the football that Big Sam played but he brought success to the club. Perhaps the reason that Bolton's gates fell had as much to do with pricing as quality of football. It's interesting that the fans don't like the football that is being played now by Bolton but their gates have risen. However the club have drastically reduced their ticket prices and have provided free transport to several away matches.

Big Sam took Bolton into Europe and made them a top ten club. For clubs like Bolton and the Rovers this is the most we can expect and, in many ways, is beyond what our resources can realistically fund.

I also agree with you that trying to change the style of football too quickly has not really worked, particularly with the injury situtation limiting his squad numbers. As I have said, Ince needs time to develop but, unfortunately, time is the one thing that the Premiership doesn't give you. If we had three teams from the Championship who had struggled to pick up points then things might not seem quite so bad. However, the fact that Hull, Stoke and West Brom have all collected early points has put more pressure on the rest of the clubs in the bottom half.

I fully agree with your conclusion that time is going to be the biggest enemy in this situation. The manager needs time and a fully fit squad before he can be judged properly. However, if results continue to go against us then time will be the one thing that he doesn't have.