[Archived] Paul Ince

[Hughesy]

Former Inter Milan coach Roberto Mancini, who is learning English in London, turned down the QPR job because he did not want to work in the Championship. (The Times)

Surely the only option if Ince doesnt turn it around!

[Jan]

If HE'S indicating interest in the Premiership. Pot Ince NOW and get him in. First actual good suggestion for a manager.

[Tris]

My reservations about Ince were:

- no formal qualifications and the reasons being given indicating a lack of intelligence as much as anything

- a lack of personal presence which suggested that the authority of being highly capped and playing with top clubs that worked down the leagues might not transfer to having similar clout with players with not dissimilar CVs and frankly earning a lot more money at Ewood

- reputation and bearing of being a bit of an inarticulate bully

- a man whose only comments about the Rovers had hitherto been 100% negative and that horrific interview with James Richardson which crossed the line to being gratuitously and vindictively nasty about our great club

I am now scared witless because:

- he seems to have zero appreciation and understanding that he inherited a club that came 7th last season and with the resources at his disposal should be challenging for UEFA qualification

- his transfer dealings are wierd and little sign he isn't going down the Keane route of importing friends and lower league players

- his inablity to organise a team to give top 4 clubs a challenging game

- Sunderland second half and the very real threat of relegation

- I have heard enough to think that if he survives the current crisis and gets through January at Rovers, he has close to zero ability to pull us round if we have another slump later in the season (and look at the March/April fixture list- we need a buffer of 9 points above 18th going into that particular tunnel)

Isn't this the same as what you posted 3 times yeterday, twice on Tuesday, 8 times over the weekend and pretty much every day for the last 6 weeks?

[broadsword]

Genuinely there are reasons and were reasons to doubt Ince's appointment. Absolutely no doubt about that. He hasn't rid me of my doubts. BUT he is the manager of Rovers and as such should get support from the fans until such times as he has proven himself unworthy of that support. That should be based solely on his performance as Rovers manager though. Nobody is requiring that everybody love Ince but that people get behind him as manager. That DOES NOT mean blindly following and agreeing with his every decision. That to me is fair.

Fair play to you, but ... and I think I've asked this question before ... how much longer will he have your support if things carry on as they are?

I think you're being very fair and equitable towards him, hats off to you.

[philipl]

Isn't this the same as what you posted 3 times yeterday, twice on Tuesday, 8 times over the weekend and pretty much every day for the last 6 weeks?

OK I'm happy to offer a posting truce on the subject of Ince to you, Crazy Ivan and Imy.

[CrazyIvan]

Fair play to you, but ... and I think I've asked this question before ... how much longer will he have your support if things carry on as they are?

I think you're being very fair and equitable towards him, hats off to you.

I don't really know if I can give a definitive answer to this question for one reason only and that is if we get two decent results i.e. a draw and a win out of the next two games people will back off calling for Ince's head but what happens if we lose the following three? To expand a little on that, how much time do you give Ince to prove himself? I think genuinely it comes down to the next 5 games. Three are away and two at home. Of the two at home one is Liverpool and the other is a must win at all costs versus Stoke. (I'm ignoring the cup game btw...) The problem with saying 5 games is that it takes us perilously close to Christmas. Truth is the very NEXT game is the only way you can judge this season.

To define it clearly... At this point, and for the foreseable future, the axe hangs over his head until such times as we are clearly out of danger. That is a moving goalpost and will be until things settle down. Mid-table mediocrity at this point in the season would be nice and the truth is we are 2 points from that as things stand. 2 points is not enough by any stretch of the imagination but one win would be hugely beneficial right now. This season will be game by game, result by result until safety is guaranteed. It may be harsh but that is the immediacy of the world we live in.

[G Somerset Rover]

I think it's more than fair to say that if we're still winless after the Stoke game than Ince will have to go. But Sunday is such a big game. If the team respond in a poor fashion to our predicament then it could ultimately cost him his job. Show some fight and grab a draw or a victory and it could all turn around for him and the club.

[Al]

I don't really know if I can give a definitive answer to this question for one reason only and that is if we get two decent results i.e. a draw and a win out of the next two games people will back off calling for Ince's head but what happens if we lose the following three? To expand a little on that, how much time do you give Ince to prove himself? I think genuinely it comes down to the next 5 games. Three are away and two at home. Of the two at home one is Liverpool and the other is a must win at all costs versus Stoke. (I'm ignoring the cup game btw...) The problem with saying 5 games is that it takes us perilously close to Christmas. Truth is the very NEXT game is the only way you can judge this season.

To define it clearly... At this point, and for the foreseable future, the axe hangs over his head until such times as we are clearly out of danger. That is a moving goalpost and will be until things settle down. Mid-table mediocrity at this point in the season would be nice and the truth is we are 2 points from that as things stand. 2 points is not enough by any stretch of the imagination but one win would be hugely beneficial right now. This season will be game by game, result by result until safety is guaranteed. It may be harsh but that is the immediacy of the world we live in.

Forget it. If he gets another 5 games and is still in the relegation zone you will want another 3, then another 2. It may already be too late as it is.

[CrazyIvan]

Forget it. If he gets another 5 games and is still in the relegation zone you will want another 3, then another 2. It may already be too late as it is.

Why do you say that? Do you think I won't ever call for Ince to go? You don't know me at all Al.

[broadsword]

Yes, I was thinking of the next 4 games (ignoring the cup game as I think we'll get hammered), but maybe 5 is better.

He could either just scrape enough points that we couldn't justify sacking him, we limp on but we're still halfway up the creek, this is possibly the worst case scenario. This would probably equate to a draw at Spurs, a loss at Pompey, getting shafted by Liverpool, bodging a draw at Wigan and squeaking a narrow win over Stoke. Possibly this is favourite to happen? 5 points from 5 games.

or we could trash spurs, draw at pompey, beat Wigan and Stoke, and lose narrowly to Liverpool. 10 points from 5 games, and no more talk of relegation. I just can't see it, sorry!

Or we could lose to Spurs the day after WBA beat Stoke, and we end up bottom. We got to Pompey and lose 2 or 3 nil, Liverpool take mickey out of us, we somehow manage to get a draw at Wigan and a draw at home to Stoke. 2 points from 5 games and it would surely be goodbye Ince.

[47er]

Isn't this the same as what you posted 3 times yeterday, twice on Tuesday, 8 times over the weekend and pretty much every day for the last 6 weeks?

You only posted it the once but I'll agree with you Tris-----if Ince doesn't get maximum points from the next 2 games he's out.

[G Somerset Rover]

Yes, I was thinking of the next 4 games (ignoring the cup game as I think we'll get hammered), but maybe 5 is better.

He could either just scrape enough points that we couldn't justify sacking him, we limp on but we're still halfway up the creek, this is possibly the worst case scenario. This would probably equate to a draw at Spurs, a loss at Pompey, getting shafted by Liverpool, bodging a draw at Wigan and squeaking a narrow win over Stoke. Possibly this is favourite to happen? 5 points from 5 games.

or we could trash spurs, draw at pompey, beat Wigan and Stoke, and lose narrowly to Liverpool. 10 points from 5 games, and no more talk of relegation. I just can't see it, sorry!

Or we could lose to Spurs the day after WBA beat Stoke, and we end up bottom. We got to Pompey and lose 2 or 3 nil, Liverpool take mickey out of us, we somehow manage to get a draw at Wigan and a draw at home to Stoke. 2 points from 5 games and it would surely be goodbye Ince.

Bryan I too was thinking the same as I've posted above, but I've just looked at the fixtures and we play Stoke at home as late as the 20th December. If we are still searching for a win after the next three games (which is extremely likely given current form etc) then I'd actually say he needs a victory at Wigan.

[dave birch]

As someone who supported his appointment, I'm giving him two games at the most.

If we win at Tottingham in a good fashion, then game by game until there is consistency, If we win at Tottingham in poor fashion, then that's it, come back and clear your gear; loss and don't get on the bus back.

[broadsword]

I don't feel confident about any of those games, sad to say :-(

[RevidgeBlue]

You only posted it the once but I'll agree with you Tris-----if Ince doesn't get maximum points from the next 2 games he's out.

I'm not sure that's what Tris said exactly in the first place but it's a ridiculous comment to make now.

What if we "only" get four points from the next two games?

This m/b has gone mad and despite the points bob makes, much of it stems from philip and his imaginary allegations of player unrest which gets everyone else feeling ill disposed towards Ince.

[tony gale's mic]

I'm not sure that's what Tris said exactly in the first place but it's a ridiculous comment to make now.

What if we "only" get four points from the next two games?

This m/b has gone mad and despite the points bob makes, much of it stems from philip and his imaginary allegations of player unrest which gets everyone else feeling ill disposed towards Ince.

I would say most of it stems from our woeful performances and our current position in the table.

[RevidgeBlue]

As someone who supported his appointment, I'm giving him two games at the most.

If we win at Tottingham in a good fashion, then game by game until there is consistency, If we win at Tottingham in poor fashion, then that's it, come back and clear your gear; loss and don't get on the bus back.

So you'd sack him if we win at Spuds, but in unconvincing fashion?

Good grief Dave. Hughes wouldn't have lasted long judged by those criteria.

[dave birch]

Certainly would, Rev.

There has been no consistency over his tenure.

If we scrape a win, jag it with a last minute goal after 91 minutes scrappy play, then he has to go.

He needs to show that a team under his control can win games, rather than the opposition losing them.

[47er]

I'm not sure that's what Tris said exactly in the first place but it's a ridiculous comment to make now.

What if we "only" get four points from the next two games?

This m/b has gone mad and despite the points bob makes, much of it stems from philip and his imaginary allegations of player unrest which gets everyone else feeling ill disposed towards Ince.

[/quote

I want him sacked now! I'm willing to compromise with Tris for the sake of harmony!

[67splitscreen]

I don't feel confident about any of those games, sad to say :-(

I hope the team don't share your feelings.

At least the club captain, has a differing view to most.

Support your boss

[G Somerset Rover]

I hope the team don't share your feelings.

At least the club captain, has a differing view to most.

Support tour boss

"Nelsen has also hailed Ince’s reaction to the injury crisis, insisting the Rovers boss has refused to hide behind some ready-made excuses."

What about 'lack of cash, injuries, cup games, Internationals and luck' for a start?!

I'm sorry...some of it is justifiable (injuries have been unbelievable), but Ince has never been short of an excuse or three.

[bob fleming]

As someone who supported his appointment, I'm giving him two games at the most.

If we win at Tottingham in a good fashion, then game by game until there is consistency, If we win at Tottingham in poor fashion, then that's it, come back and clear your gear; loss and don't get on the bus back.

Thing is Dave even if we were on song, winning at Spurs and Portsmouth would be a tall order (I needn't mentioned beating Man U and Liverpool). It has to be the performancesthat are key.

We can't have that 2nd half shambles again.

[Majiball]

Let me ask a question open to anyone, related to your post. The appointment of Ince has polarised views, more than any other appointment, from the moment his name was mentioned. Obviously a lot of posters weren't convinced that he would make a good manager for Rovers. Why were there more doubts about Ince?

Do you think there was good reason to doubt his appointment, or do you think that posters simply aren't as clued up as in previous years?

Compare the poll on Ince's appointment, with that of Mark Hughes HERE.

Why is that?

I read this last night and after some pondering have decided to wade in.

1. No top flight experience, management wise. He had been away from the top flight for too long.

2. Rovers had significantly progressed under Hughes the criteria used to select Hughes where not applicable.

3. Past history, IE playboy lifestyle at pool.

4. His lack of qualifications never bothered me, the licence are just like a driving licence.

5. Rovers did not need a gamble, we needed to be inspired. Hughes leaving was a kick in the balls, Ince felt like another.

6. Comparing the pedigree of the other one in the frame to Ince it was really a no-brainer, well at least I thought so.

7. Inces previous comments about Rovers, now whilst I don't take them personally it does say a lot about him, his words could have been chosen better (something he seems to struggle with)

8. You always knew he would bring his MK Dons staff with him.

9. BFS's withdrawal showed the board was not capable of having the strength of its convictions.

10. The giant gulf between league two and the prem, meant it was always going to be a learning curve. Something we could not afford.

11. When you heard the names that where linked considering our status in the prem, it was disheartening. What surprised me most was the completely ignoring of managers who publicly stated they where interested but not even interviewed IE Advocaat, Terim.

12. Ince felt like the cheap option.

Even though I'm sure Ince and Hughes have similarities, the trouble was the club situation had changed when Hughes took over we where relegation fodder, when Ince took over we where European candidates. Thats a big difference in the prem.

Now when Ince was appointed I was far from happy, that may have been partly down to my bet on laudrup at 40-1. I watched his press conference and heard his quip. Now for me it wasn't so much the comment that made me think (I chuckled when he said it) but what got me was JW's reaction, he was ###### you could see it in his face. Ince made us promises IE proven experienced premiership coaches. Now whilst we got one I was not expecting Knox with his two years premiership experience, and the rumours that came with him. It was the most important decision the club was going to make in recent history, we'd just lost a talisman and where expecting to lose another one in Bentley, we needed something to galvanise us (the fans).

When your comparing the two, I just don't think you can. When Hughes came in we where going down, when Ince came in we had just missed out on Europe, its just not the same. I think Hughes time in the international scene put him on the map, he almost beat Italy with wales. It also gave him a huge advantage over Ince, players Hughes must have had plenty of time to watch football. Hughes was a student of the game, I remember reading a interview with Giggs who said that the second training finished Hughes would write down what they had done and so on. All I've ever heard about Ince and bettering himself, is his contractual obligation to get his badges, Christ he even moans about it.

[tony gale's mic]

he almost beat Italy with wales

He did.

Those comparing Ince and Hughes when they each first joined Rovers are plain wrong.

Neither had a load of experience, but Hughes had five years of experience coming up against some of the finest tactical minds in world football, working with and against some top class players, and being successful.

Ince had two years, one was a miraculous escape over half a season with Macclesfield and one was leading the Chelsea of League Two to the title. Very good achievements and well worth a Championship managers' post, but nowhere near comparable to what Hughes achieved and certainly not a suitable appointment for a side consistently challenging for Europe.

[joey_big_nose]

He did.

Those comparing Ince and Hughes when they each first joined Rovers are plain wrong.

Neither had a load of experience, but Hughes had five years of experience coming up against some of the finest tactical minds in world football, working with and against some top class players, and being successful.

Ince had two years, one was a miraculous escape over half a season with Macclesfield and one was leading the Chelsea of League Two to the title. Very good achievements and well worth a Championship managers' post, but nowhere near comparable to what Hughes achieved and certainly not a suitable appointment for a side consistently challenging for Europe.

I don't know, in many ways those two achievements with the lower league teams were much more difficult and against the odds that what Hughes achieved (which was failing to qualify for a major tournament despite having a squad not much worse than quite a few - Poland, Slovenia etc. - who have managed to qualify in recent years). He got close but not quite there, and had some decent enough players - Giggs, Bellamy, Savage, Simon Davies.

You can argue that Ince did not have the chance to work with International players like Hughes which is a problem for an international coach, but then you could argue that Hughes did not have any experience running a day to day club (you bet that would have been cited as the irrefutable reason for failure if Hughes had stumbled) which would fate him to do badly. Why is one argument more valid than the other?

Essentially in any manger you have to count experience- but it is not the be all and end all. Massively experienced managers have been rubbish at some clubs. Inexperienced managers have done well in some situations. The fact of the matter is the chairman has to look at someone and see what they can offer a team like Rovers. JW made that choice, and it looks like the wrong one. But I am not sure that we can say that Ince is definitively up to the job because of lack of experience. There are so many factors and so many examples.