[Archived] Paul Ince

[gumboots]

rev define "deteriorate" because surely to hell we cant go any worse......can we?

Results possibly can't. Despite the awfulness of Saturday's second half, performances probably can

[ABBEY]

performence in second half was worst i can ever remember since city did us 6-1.

[RevidgeBlue]

rev define "deteriorate" because surely to hell we cant go any worse......can we?

I said "if results continue to deteriorate" because they've only really started to deteriorate over the last six or seven games.

After the Newcastle game we were sat there having made a good start.

Plus we could probably play a lot worse, I thought we played quite well v Boro, Villa and Chelsea despite not getting much by way of the results.

[Athlete]

But how about this strange fact Wigan last season went 10 league games wtihout a win ( we're on 7 ) on the 8th game Spurs away they were hammered 4-0 hutchings was sacked 2 days later , Bruce appointed still didnt win until the 11th game when they beat us in one of the most bizarre games of footy I've ever witnissed ( how we came away with nothing is a mystery )

BTW :if results dont improve the decision will be made for the board by the fact results are poor , no glossing over , no comments in the press about rosy in the garden , no moaning about injuries , suspensions , dodgy decisions , etc - IF THEY DON'T IMPROVE IT WILL BE DOWN TO FACTS AND THE FACTS ARE WE CURRENTLY IN THE BOTTOM 3 !

end of rant

[47er]

I don't think anyone would have seen the appointment as a slam-dunk guaranteed success. Some thought it a risk worth taking and others either an unnecessary or too great a risk. I think that was at the root of the divide between the fans.

Two subsequent questions spring to mind: why is Ince getting the stick and not Williams as it was he who took the risk? Ince just took the job. And secondly, why do a small minority of the 'too risky' thinkers feel the need to pollute this messageboard with endless posts aimed solely at belittling Ince and painting everything he does as a horrendous error? That I cannot understand.

After all, he has made some big errors that we can all agree on: the backroom team, too many players out of position, none of his signings having as yet had a major impact; these are why we are where we are. Fowler was another big mistake as that really had to work or Ince would lose a lot of credibility with fans and I would guess at least some of the players. But everything else is just chickensh!t and there have been a few good things in there as well: Warnock as a midfielder, MGP being dropped and then miraculously playing his best game for 2 years, Robinson etc.

But the pros and the cons have not cancelled out, and with the transfer window looming, a lot of the 'looks risky but I'll wait and see' are now swinging to get rid while there is time for a new man to evaluate the squad, bring his lackeys in and spend some dosh.

You've answered your own question I'd say!

[Exiled in Toronto]

Anybody with any marketing savy would see it is the obvious thing to do.

1) Rovers average gate is down 2,000 in raw numbers and probably 3,000 in reality

2) Liverpool tickets are about to go on sale. The nearest equivalent fixture (ie sell out last season), Man U was down 4,000 a few weeks ago so the club needs to address those 4,000 missing supporters.

3) The Manager's perception is desperately low- see the top of this page.

If PAPR is there to do anything, it will have been actively placing interviews and favourable profiles in this week-end rags.

If they haven't then its a sign that the board is considering its options.

Glossy profiles on the manager while the football quality is tanking? I'd stick to doing the accounts if I were you.

[DingleBaiter]

Anybody with any marketing savy would see it is the obvious thing to do.

1) Rovers average gate is down 2,000 in raw numbers and probably 3,000 in reality

2) Liverpool tickets are about to go on sale. The nearest equivalent fixture (ie sell out last season), Man U was down 4,000 a few weeks ago so the club needs to address those 4,000 missing supporters.

3) The Manager's perception is desperately low- see the top of this page.

If PAPR is there to do anything, it will have been actively placing interviews and favourable profiles in this week-end rags.

If they haven't then its a sign that the board is considering its options.

Philip - I can see a flaw in your thoughts.

Your suggestions are all valid & sensible but there's an assumption that PAPR are competent. Personally, I would suggest it's illogical (captain) to draw a conclusion on anything that hinges on PAPR doing - or not doing - something one would expect to 'prove' a point.

I still can't get past thinking there's a big, glum, dark cloud spread over everything Rovers just now (without even reading the harbingers of doom on here!). Reserves tanked last night to go along with the kids dire form (3 losses) matching the first team's. Is it all Ince, or is that too obvious or as misplaced an assumption as Philip's one?

It's taken days to think of an upside to all this, and I've taken solace in the parallels of our situation with the Welsh national footy side under Toshack. I've an impression - nothing scientific and certainly not based on knowing their form, stats or anything - that they've rode their storm out & come out the other side. They lost arguably their most successful manager of recent times, who left them with an aging side, to be taken over by a manager reviled in some quarters by his own fans. Their new man's CV could have been judged a success in some quarters, but there were issues to be addressed not least in winning over the fans & questions about his long-term loyalty to his post & perceived popularity. Subsequent high profile fall-outs with experienced players ensued, questions raised about an inferior - by comparison - backroom staff, rumours of dissent, lack of discipline, 'insider stories', shambolic PR, erratic results and performances, all added to the 'dead man walking' image in some quarters - surely it was just a matter of time?

However, time was given - and look how things have changed. The path to their success has been rocky, and there's still a way to go, but look how it was obtained, and how optimistic their future is? A redeemed captain has grown in the responsibility offered him, a faith in youth and long-term planning & faith/support in the manager by those who selected him, has brought in exciting, young players that should only grow in stature in time.

Of course, it's a completely different environment, and one could argue the expectations and pressures are completely different - but it just goes to show, doesn't it?

Even without going into specifics, it was always likely we would have taken some element of a step back after Hughes. The present concern has gained momentum since Saturday because of that second half, and being in the bottom 3. Initially, one would hope that situation could be easily resolved with the next (and subsequent) results - not performances. Reality though is somewhat more difficult.

It's a terrible cliche, but it's a results business. Everything else - if/why/how Ince was right/wrong for Rovers, criticism of everything from his suit to discipline issues, sports science, training methods etc., some laughable (yet tenuous) rumours and so on - should be either SECONDARY or even irrelevant to Rovers getting points, starting with Sunday. Even if by some miracle we turn the corner, hit form & carry on the good work of the Taffia, there will always be detractors, moaners, doom merchants and also the happy-clappers, but at least lets hope we can get to that point first & then address the (arguably) lesser-important stuff?

[47er]

Philip - I can see a flaw in your thoughts.

Your suggestions are all valid & sensible but there's an assumption that PAPR are competent. Personally, I would suggest it's illogical (captain) to draw a conclusion on anything that hinges on PAPR doing - or not doing - something one would expect to 'prove' a point.

I still can't get past thinking there's a big, glum, dark cloud spread over everything Rovers just now (without even reading the harbingers of doom on here!). Reserves tanked last night to go along with the kids dire form (3 losses) matching the first team's. Is it all Ince, or is that too obvious or as misplaced an assumption as Philip's one?

It's taken days to think of an upside to all this, and I've taken solace in the parallels of our situation with the Welsh national footy side under Toshack. I've an impression - nothing scientific and certainly not based on knowing their form, stats or anything - that they've rode their storm out & come out the other side. They lost arguably their most successful manager of recent times, who left them with an aging side, to be taken over by a manager reviled in some quarters by his own fans. Their new man's CV could have been judged a success in some quarters, but there were issues to be addressed not least in winning over the fans & questions about his long-term loyalty to his post & perceived popularity. Subsequent high profile fall-outs with experienced players ensued, questions raised about an inferior - by comparison - backroom staff, rumours of dissent, lack of discipline, 'insider stories', shambolic PR, erratic results and performances, all added to the 'dead man walking' image in some quarters - surely it was just a matter of time?

However, time was given - and look how things have changed. The path to their success has been rocky, and there's still a way to go, but look how it was obtained, and how optimistic their future is? A redeemed captain has grown in the responsibility offered him, a faith in youth and long-term planning & faith/support in the manager by those who selected him, has brought in exciting, young players that should only grow in stature in time.

Of course, it's a completely different environment, and one could argue the expectations and pressures are completely different - but it just goes to show, doesn't it?

Even without going into specifics, it was always likely we would have taken some element of a step back after Hughes. The present concern has gained momentum since Saturday because of that second half, and being in the bottom 3. Initially, one would hope that situation could be easily resolved with the next (and subsequent) results - not performances. Reality though is somewhat more difficult.

It's a terrible cliche, but it's a results business. Everything else - if/why/how Ince was right/wrong for Rovers, criticism of everything from his suit to discipline issues, sports science, training methods etc., some laughable (yet tenuous) rumours and so on - should be either SECONDARY or even irrelevant to Rovers getting points, starting with Sunday. Even if by some miracle we turn the corner, hit form & carry on the good work of the Taffia, there will always be detractors, moaners, doom merchants and also the happy-clappers, but at least lets hope we can get to that point first & then address the (arguably) lesser-important stuff?

One big difference-----------Wales can't be relegated.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Philip - I can see a flaw in your thoughts.

Your suggestions are all valid & sensible but there's an assumption that PAPR are competent. Personally, I would suggest it's illogical (captain) to draw a conclusion on anything that hinges on PAPR doing - or not doing - something one would expect to 'prove' a point.

I still can't get past thinking there's a big, glum, dark cloud spread over everything Rovers just now (without even reading the harbingers of doom on here!). Reserves tanked last night to go along with the kids dire form (3 losses) matching the first team's. Is it all Ince, or is that too obvious or as misplaced an assumption as Philip's one?

It's taken days to think of an upside to all this, and I've taken solace in the parallels of our situation with the Welsh national footy side under Toshack. I've an impression - nothing scientific and certainly not based on knowing their form, stats or anything - that they've rode their storm out & come out the other side. They lost arguably their most successful manager of recent times, who left them with an aging side, to be taken over by a manager reviled in some quarters by his own fans. Their new man's CV could have been judged a success in some quarters, but there were issues to be addressed not least in winning over the fans & questions about his long-term loyalty to his post & perceived popularity. Subsequent high profile fall-outs with experienced players ensued, questions raised about an inferior - by comparison - backroom staff, rumours of dissent, lack of discipline, 'insider stories', shambolic PR, erratic results and performances, all added to the 'dead man walking' image in some quarters - surely it was just a matter of time?

However, time was given - and look how things have changed. The path to their success has been rocky, and there's still a way to go, but look how it was obtained, and how optimistic their future is? A redeemed captain has grown in the responsibility offered him, a faith in youth and long-term planning & faith/support in the manager by those who selected him, has brought in exciting, young players that should only grow in stature in time.

Of course, it's a completely different environment, and one could argue the expectations and pressures are completely different - but it just goes to show, doesn't it?

Even without going into specifics, it was always likely we would have taken some element of a step back after Hughes. The present concern has gained momentum since Saturday because of that second half, and being in the bottom 3. Initially, one would hope that situation could be easily resolved with the next (and subsequent) results - not performances. Reality though is somewhat more difficult.

It's a terrible cliche, but it's a results business. Everything else - if/why/how Ince was right/wrong for Rovers, criticism of everything from his suit to discipline issues, sports science, training methods etc., some laughable (yet tenuous) rumours and so on - should be either SECONDARY or even irrelevant to Rovers getting points, starting with Sunday. Even if by some miracle we turn the corner, hit form & carry on the good work of the Taffia, there will always be detractors, moaners, doom merchants and also the happy-clappers, but at least lets hope we can get to that point first & then address the (arguably) lesser-important stuff?

Differences is in this case is the time scale and perceptions of what success is. Rovers can ill afford to give Ince time and be relegated but I do take on board the one step back to make two forward scenario.

Secondily what does success equate to for Toshack? Have they qualified or are likely to qualify for a major tournement?

Lastly performances like the second half performance of last Saturday are seldom isolated occurances. Usually when performances are good but results are poor, one of two things happen - the results start matching the performance or as in the majority of cases the performance degenerates to the level of results as confidence ebbs away.

[Majiball]

One big difference-----------Wales can't be relegated.

My thoughts exactly.

However Inces reign's start does have parallels to one certain Sir Alex Ferguson's.

[tony gale's mic]

My thoughts exactly.

However Inces reign's start does have parallels to one certain Sir Alex Ferguson's.

That means nothing, you can say that about any unsuccessful manager.

[Majiball]

That means nothing, you can say that about any unsuccessful manager.

Even though I'm far from happy with the way things have turned out I still hope he cuts the mustard somehow?

[tony gale's mic]

Even though I'm far from happy with the way things have turned out I still hope he cuts the mustard somehow?

I just see too many negative indicators that things aren't going to get better. There's absolutely nothing that encourages me about this current regime.

[T4E]

Winterburn has just been on Sky Sports News (again) talking about Arsenal (again). Not a mention of Rovers. Do we still employ this guy?

[G Somerset Rover]

Apparently so. Anyone would think we have the meanest defence in the league what with Winterburn's constant Gooner discussions on Sky.

[Claytons Left Boot]

Winterburn has just been on Sky Sports News (again) talking about Arsenal (again). Not a mention of Rovers. Do we still employ this guy?

I'd have him serving soup in the Red Rose Suite. Come the revolution he'll be first through the door and I hope the tosspot gets a size 12 imprint on his backside.

[CrazyIvan]

Winterburn has just been on Sky Sports News (again) talking about Arsenal (again). Not a mention of Rovers. Do we still employ this guy?

I was going to post about this. When does he actually work for Rovers? It looked like he was comfortably at home to me...

[broadsword]

He's meant to work here part-time, and from what's been said on here before he stays at a near-by hotel then catches a flight home.

[T4E]

I read at the beginning it was 2 days a week, so I don't think thats a cause for concern. Although I would expect him to be hard at work with the rest of the staff on a Friday.

[Hughesy]

Beginning of the week, following games.

He is a waste of time, although if he is responsible for Samba's performance last week then fair play.

[Athlete]

Beginning of the week, following games.

He is a waste of time, although if he is responsible for Samba's performance last week then fair play.

Ince just been on rockFM spouting its time for video refs - if he watched a video of last saturday it would be in the horror section !

[den]

Beginning of the week, following games.

He is a waste of time, although if he is responsible for Samba's performance last week then fair play.

Samba is responsible for Samba's performance, not Winterburn.

[dr_awol]

Ince just been on rockFM spouting its time for video refs - if he watched a video of last saturday it would be in the horror section !

just heard him on radio 1 talking about the inhouse fighting at arsenal.

[T4E]

Beginning of the week, following games.

You'd think he'd do Mondays and Fridays - lessoned learned from the last game, and planning for the next.

[broadsword]

Beginning of the week, following games.

He is a waste of time, although if he is responsible for Samba's performance last week then fair play.

Surely not a waste of time, that would imply another mate is on the pay-roll.

That, sir, is just not possible.