[Archived] Paul Ince

[gazsimm]

Only if Ince agreed to it - otherwise he would be here now. Don't kid yourselves, a lot of managers would have fought tooth and nail to keep him, knowing how vital he was to our creativity. Ince had no idea what he was selling.

I think Hughes would of agreed to it as well Den, the only difference though Hughes would of bought in a replacement for him, unlike what Ince did.

[LeChuck]

It is true. We aren't Villa, they are a bigger club than us and are backed by an American billionaire. They could realistcally put there foot down and we couldn't.

Why? What would have happened if we'd put our foot down and said "you're going nowhere"? I don't see how having an American billionaire is relevant to this situation.

[Mr Creosote]

Why? What would have happened if we'd put our foot down and said "you're going nowhere"? I don't see how having an American billionaire is relevant to this situation.

Having a few quid to back you up gives you the leeway to take a principled stance and allow an asset to depreciate by sitting in the stands and/or playing for the stiffs. It also allows you to say to your wantaway player "look at what we've got and what we can do" in order to persuade them to stay which is what Villa have managed imo.

Obviously, I dont know Bentley personnaly but he does seem like a sulker. If he hadn't got his move it would have cost the club millions and having Billy Bigtime dragging his bottom lip around the place would not have been conducive to developing a good team spirit.

[almuncle]

Having a few quid to back you up gives you the leeway to take a principled stance and allow an asset to depreciate by sitting in the stands and/or playing for the stiffs. It also allows you to say to your wantaway player "look at what we've got and what we can do" in order to persuade them to stay which is what Villa have managed imo.

Obviously, I dont know Bentley personnaly but he does seem like a sulker. If he hadn't got his move it would have cost the club millions and having Billy Bigtime dragging his bottom lip around the place would not have been conducive to developing a good team spirit.

Maybe he would have sulked for a couple of weeks but in the end he needed to play and play well in order to cement his England place. He'd have got over it.

[tony gale's mic]

Having a few quid to back you up gives you the leeway to take a principled stance and allow an asset to depreciate by sitting in the stands and/or playing for the stiffs. It also allows you to say to your wantaway player "look at what we've got and what we can do" in order to persuade them to stay which is what Villa have managed imo.

Obviously, I dont know Bentley personnaly but he does seem like a sulker. If he hadn't got his move it would have cost the club millions and having Billy Bigtime dragging his bottom lip around the place would not have been conducive to developing a good team spirit.

Yeah but fact is it wouldn't have been in Bentley's best interests to play badly if we hung onto him. He's not like Benni when he was turning 30 and towards the end of his career, if we kept Bentley he would've had to put his all in, for both his England prospects and his chances of getting a big move the following January/summer.

[Eddie]

This is Bentley we are talking about, the guy who essentially stuck two fingers up to Wenger. You really think he would have been a man about it?

[Mr Creosote]

The Bentley situation has been debated around since he did his Oliver Reid impersonation on SSN. There are many things to castigate Ince for but I doubt that it is fair for Bentley leaving to be one of them.

[den]

There are many things to castigate Ince for but I doubt that it is fair for Bentley leaving to be one of them.

It's fact Mr Creosote.

[LeChuck]

Having a few quid to back you up gives you the leeway to take a principled stance and allow an asset to depreciate by sitting in the stands and/or playing for the stiffs. It also allows you to say to your wantaway player "look at what we've got and what we can do" in order to persuade them to stay which is what Villa have managed imo.

Obviously, I dont know Bentley personnaly but he does seem like a sulker. If he hadn't got his move it would have cost the club millions and having Billy Bigtime dragging his bottom lip around the place would not have been conducive to developing a good team spirit.

So the answer to my second question really was 'nothing'. Barry wanted out by the way, he wasn't persuaded to stay, he was told to stay. The choice to sell Bentley was completely ours, we could have put our foot down if we wanted to.

Like someone has already said; Bentley might have sulked for a week or two (although wasn't he all smiles when he turned up for pre-season training?) but the fact that he is constantly fighting for his England place means he would have put in 100% on the pitch. It's not like he was unhappy with us, he was just lured by more money/European football...very, very similar to what happened with Barry in fact.

[Mr Creosote]

It's fact Mr Creosote.

I doubt that it fits the dictionary defination. Otherwise there would be no room for debate would there?

[tony gale's mic]

This is Bentley we are talking about, the guy who essentially stuck two fingers up to Wenger. You really think he would have been a man about it?

It's not a question of being a man, it's a question of furthering his career. He stuck two fingers up at Wenger because he wanted first team football and so further his career. Similarly, had we kept him he would have sulked for a bit but then would do his best for us to try and further his career, get himself into the England squad and attract the big clubs. Bentley may be a prick of the highest order but he's also highly ambitious.

The Bentley situation has been debated around since he did his Oliver Reid impersonation on SSN. There are many things to castigate Ince for but I doubt that it is fair for Bentley leaving to be one of them.

Not Bentley leaving, but allowing him to leave without getting a replacement.

[almuncle]

I doubt that it fits the dictionary defination. Otherwise there would be no room for debate would there?

But you are not really debating whether Ince had to sell him or not. You are debating whether Bentley would still have produced the goods had he stayed.

[Mr Creosote]

So the answer to my second question really was 'nothing'. Barry wanted out by the way, he wasn't persuaded to stay, he was told to stay. The choice to sell Bentley was completely ours, we could have put our foot down if we wanted to.

Like someone has already said; Bentley might have sulked for a week or two (although wasn't he all smiles when he turned up for pre-season training?) but the fact that he is constantly fighting for his England place means he would have put in 100% on the pitch. It's not like he was unhappy with us, he was just lured by more money/European football...very, very similar to what happened with Barry in fact.

I think you have lost sight of where we are in the"food chain". Clubs lose players to bigger clubs through the work of agents and players who will make life difficult if they dont get what they want. Sadly, it has been going on for years. Thats not Ince's fault but I feel you and a few others will take a lot of convincing otherwise.

It isn't like there aren't loads of other things to beat the Guv'nor up about is it?

But you are not really debating whether Ince had to sell him or not. You are debating whether Bentley would still have produced the goods had he stayed.

I am. I'm asserting that Ince and the club were left with no option.

[tony gale's mic]

I think you have lost sight of where we are in the"food chain". Clubs lose players to bigger clubs through the work of agents and players who will make life difficult if they dont get what they want. Sadly, it has been going on for years. Thats not Ince's fault but I feel you and a few others will take a lot of convincing otherwise.

It isn't like there aren't loads of other things to beat the Guv'nor up about is it?

The decision to sell ultimately rests with the club. Noone else.

If Bentley stayed there's no reason to suggest he would have put in sub standard performances.

It's not so much Bentley leaving as allowing him to leave and not having a replacement.

[Mr Creosote]

It's not a question of being a man, it's a question of furthering his career. He stuck two fingers up at Wenger because he wanted first team football and so further his career. Similarly, had we kept him he would have sulked for a bit but then would do his best for us to try and further his career, get himself into the England squad and attract the big clubs. Bentley may be a prick of the highest order but he's also highly ambitious.

Not Bentley leaving, but allowing him to leave without getting a replacement.

Agreed.

[tony gale's mic]

Agreed.

But I'm saying we weren't left with no option. Granted at the time I wasn't against selling, and wouldn't have had this discussion had Ince got a replacement. There was still lots of time in the transfer window, we could've asked Bentley to hold fire, while we found a replacement and THEN sold him. It wouldve been a perfectly fair request, and if we hung onto him I'm sure he would've still been trying as hard as he did before.

Even if Ince got a replacement RW and he was rubbish, granted I'd be criticising Ince's transfer policy and judgement in making signings but I wouldn't have been criticising his decision to sell Bentley.

[almuncle]

But that is not true is it. They did have an option but chose not to take it.In his defence it could be because it was too early in Ince's reign and he couldn't forsee the damage selling and not replacing Bentley would cause , but still he made a terrible mistake.

[roversmum]

Here we go again. Do we have to keep harping on about Bentley? He went, he isn't exactly setting Spurs on fire, he's the past as far as Rovers are concerned. Bert and Morten aren't too bad at firing crosses into the area, they may not be the answer but if we want to look into the past perhaps we ought to be thinking about how many chances to score we have actually missed already this season - there are many of them.

Should we not be discussing the present situation rather than the past - we cannot change history now but we can change the future.

[Mr Creosote]

But I'm saying we weren't left with no option. Granted at the time I wasn't against selling, and wouldn't have had this discussion had Ince got a replacement. There was still lots of time in the transfer window, we could've asked Bentley to hold fire, while we found a replacement and THEN sold him. It wouldve been a perfectly fair request, and if we hung onto him I'm sure he would've still been trying as hard as he did before.

Even if Ince got a replacement RW and he was rubbish, granted I'd be criticising Ince's transfer policy and judgement in making signings but I wouldn't have been criticising his decision to sell Bentley.

Bentley's slurred transfer request gave the club and Ince weeks to find a replacement. I would agree that their failure to do so amounts to gross negligence.

[almuncle]

Here we go again. Do we have to keep harping on about Bentley? He went, he isn't exactly setting Spurs on fire, he's the past as far as Rovers are concerned. Bert and Morten aren't too bad at firing crosses into the area, they may not be the answer but if we want to look into the past perhaps we ought to be thinking about how many chances to score we have actually missed already this season - there are many of them.

Should we not be discussing the present situation rather than the past - we cannot change history now but we can change the future.

We can"t change history but hopefully we can learn from it

[Mr Creosote]

Here we go again. Do we have to keep harping on about Bentley? He went, he isn't exactly setting Spurs on fire, he's the past as far as Rovers are concerned. Bert and Morten aren't too bad at firing crosses into the area, they may not be the answer but if we want to look into the past perhaps we ought to be thinking about how many chances to score we have actually missed already this season - there are many of them.

Should we not be discussing the present situation rather than the past - we cannot change history now but we can change the future.

Blimey RM, you dont mean our Morten surely? The last time he landed a cross in the 18 yard box Beamo headed it into the back of the BBE.

[Exiled in Toronto]

I think the fact that Bentley has been poor so far this season undermines the argument he would have definitely delivered the goods for us had he been forced to stay. Surely he had even more incentive at a new club to win over a new lot of fans, cement his role in the Spurs team, claim his England place and so on, but he has failed to do so. Why would he have been better here?

[super_arran]

Blimey RM, you dont mean our Morten surely? The last time he landed a cross in the 18 yard box Beamo headed it into the back of the BBE.

or at pompey on sunday when matty scored

[LeChuck]

I think you have lost sight of where we are in the"food chain". Clubs lose players to bigger clubs through the work of agents and players who will make life difficult if they dont get what they want. Sadly, it has been going on for years. Thats not Ince's fault but I feel you and a few others will take a lot of convincing otherwise.

It isn't like there aren't loads of other things to beat the Guv'nor up about is it?

If he had gone to one of the big four then I'd have absolutely no argument with what you just said.

Last season we were certainly not in a position where we couldn't keep our players from the likes of Spurs. I'd like to think, even in our current situation, that this is the case.

I'm not beating Ince up over this decision by the way, I said a few posts back I don't think selling Bentley was a mistake. The only thing I have issue with is the claim that it was out of our hands. It was entirely our decision.

[tony gale's mic]

I think the fact that Bentley has been poor so far this season undermines the argument he would have definitely delivered the goods for us had he been forced to stay. Surely he had even more incentive at a new club to win over a new lot of fans, cement his role in the Spurs team, claim his England place and so on, but he has failed to do so. Why would he have been better here?

It's unfair to judge him in the context of an underperforming Spurs side. Against us he was playing LW and under Ramos he was moved around all over the place, even put at RB in one game. At Rovers he would have definitely been on the right side and allowed Emerton to play RB or CM, positions which he is considerably better at, and this would have strengthened our defence or midfield depending on the situation