[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[Eddie]

I think any criticism of the current way we play is pointless, because there is no other way we could play and win. I think any other style would see us down. I'm not judging Sam at all yet, I'm merely thankful that he is on course to keep us up.

You can repeat "premiership football" all you want, but no manager wants relegation on their CV (ask Ince if it was a great move) and coming to us definately represents a relegation battle. The candidates we'd be looking at would be lower league managers desperate for any opportunity (which was Ince, and would now be Coyle or Martinez), or managers whose reputations have taken a knock and are desperate to try and prove themselves again (Allardyce, McClaren, Mancini).

Out of the lot, Allarydce was the best option in December. Simple as that really, and I don't think anybody else better than him would have been interested.

There are alternatives, we've even seen it within the time that Allardyce has been in charge and it has had nothing to do with who has been fit. There are always alternatives and I can't believe that someone is seriously of the opinion that there is literally only one way to get a bunch of premiership footballers to play in a way that is competitive and relatively successful. You continue, like many others on this board who may not be as familiar with footballing opinions outside of the UK, to underestimate just how respected the premiership and the English game is. There is no way that the list of experienced managers would have been limited to three or four and the history of premiership appointments whenever teams have been willing to look abroad should show you that. The fact remains that English teams are very reluctant to appoint foreign managers and even more unlikely to consider a foreign manager who has not proven himself with a top European side. It was to be expected that we would look to a British manager in December, but the fact that we made that part of our decision making was a conscious decision to limit that list rather than any reflection on the qualifications of the managers who may have been interested.

We'll never know, but Mancini allegedly wanted "get out" clauses before he'd consider the job - hardly confidence inspiring.

And hasn't he already been sacked from whatever job he ended up taking?

I still don't fully understand why people are opposed to managers having get out clauses. It is essentially just putting into paper what we all know would happen anyway. There was a similar reaction to Laudrup in the summer, but had a large Spanish side been interested in appointing him anyway the club wouldn't have stood in the way. We could even totally avoid the clause by simply offering a rolling contract as we did with Hughes.

[RevidgeBlue]

You may be confusing him with Laudrup.

Mancini did apply in December so actually the answer is yes. He would have come in December.

Whoops sorry.

Was it ever official(ish) about Mancini being interested/applying or was it just newspaper talk? I can't recall.

I think we got the right man for a short term firefighting exercise anyhow.

[DE.]

You may be confusing him with Laudrup.

Mancini did apply in December so actually the answer is yes. He would have come in December.

Not sure I believe you, but even if it is true, why would an italian whose last job was manager of Inter Milan and never managed in the premier league be able to do a better job than Sam Allardyce? Having never been in a relegation struggle and never played with such a poor calibre of players, I fail to see why you believe he would have had more of an impact than Sam. Unlike his previous jobs, he also would have had no money to spend on bringing others in.

[Eddie]

I think the Mancini interest was probably very real, although I can't remember him publicly saying anything. I agree we chose fairly well for the short term, but why the contract offered was then so long baffles me slightly. Another thing that has to be pointed out in all this is that Allardyce is on 40k a week (or at least that is what is reported) which must make him one of the better paid managers in the league. That is not really very wise for a club with a small budget that will be looking to cut its wage bill.

I'll repeat again, just to try and end this: I'm not totally against him and I hope he turns out to be success, but I have some serious concerns and I don't like very much how people are dismissing any dissenting opinion and think that the man should be untouchable because of the situation he came into.

[The Prof.]

Mancini, MANCINI! Coming here? You've more chance of seeing Jesus land in a flying saucer on the centre spot.

The budget for EVERY club in the premiership isn't much different from ours - Liverpools is less. Only a few clubs will spend big this year. expect the wage bill to be cut though. Thats more of a drain than transfer fees these days.

[DE.]

There are alternatives, we've even seen it within the time that Allardyce has been in charge and it has had nothing to do with who has been fit. There are always alternatives and I can't believe that someone is seriously of the opinion that there is literally only one way to get a bunch of premiership footballers to play in a way that is competitive and relatively successful. You continue, like many others on this board who may not be as familiar with footballing opinions outside of the UK, to underestimate just how respected the premiership and the English game is. There is no way that the list of experienced managers would have been limited to three or four and the history of premiership appointments whenever teams have been willing to look abroad should show you that. The fact remains that English teams are very reluctant to appoint foreign managers and even more unlikely to consider a foreign manager who has not proven himself with a top European side. It was to be expected that we would look to a British manager in December, but the fact that we made that part of our decision making was a conscious decision to limit that list rather than any reflection on the qualifications of the managers who may have been interested.

You've taken my comments a little too far and made conclusions which are wrong. I don't believe "there is literally only one way to get a bunch of premiership footballers to play in a way that is competitive and relatively successful", however, I do believe it was the only way to get OUR SQUAD to be successful. That's the squad with no midfield and a forever-injured attack, which you seem to have ignored. Ince tried "passing football" and we were going the way of West brom, whilst funnily enough generally playing worse than they were. What games have we played under Allardyce with alternative systems of play that have yielded results? not saying you're wrong on that, but I'm failing to remember. Don't quote draws or losses because that only emphasises that it doesn't work.

The rest of your post is speculative and I've made my position clear: I do not think anybody better than Sam would have been interested in December.

Also, I for one do not believe he is untouchable, but I am waiting until next season to judge him.

[Eddie]

Thank you for dismissing the rest of my post as being "speculative"; please in turn the concrete evidence to present the opinion you are so sure of? I am simply stating that there is reason for concern as equally there are reasons to be positive. I am recognising that there can be differing opinions for the very fact that football discussion relies on very little that is concrete. We do not know who would have been interested. We do know not know what would have happened had Ince kept his job or had someone else been appointed. Equally we do not know what would happen if this team approached games slightly differently.

As far as the team playing differently it would be that for the majority of our poor run under Allardyce he set the side out in a 4-5-1 formation that clearly didn't work. In games that we either rescued or played well from the start we have usually played 4-4-2. Now the response to this is always that we have not had the players available to play this formation; but in recent weeks the increased use of McCarthy, Samba up front, Villanueva up front, MGP up front, Tugay playing more in central midfield and the rotation of Dunn and Grella would in fact support the view that it is possible even with our depleted squad and these are all ideas that I have been putting forward for several weeks (I do not like Samba alone up front). Now, you can bury your head in a hole and think that long ball lumping is all that is available is fine, or that there is nothing between that and trying to play like Brazil, but such possibilities do exist.

[broadsword]

Mancini, MANCINI! Coming here? You've more chance of seeing Jesus land in a flying saucer on the centre spot.

Can he play left wing?

[DE.]

Thank you for dismissing the rest of my post as being "speculative"; please in turn the concrete evidence to present the opinion you are so sure of? I am simply stating that there is reason for concern as equally there are reasons to be positive. I am recognising that there can be differing opinions for the very fact that football discussion relies on very little that is concrete. We do not know who would have been interested. We do know not know what would have happened had Ince kept his job or had someone else been appointed. Equally we do not know what would happen if this team approached games slightly differently.

You mean my opinion that Sam has done well and was the best man for the job? 37 points, realistically 3 points off safety... ? If not that, then my opinion of our style of play being the best to keep us up... 37 points, realistically 3 points off safety...

As far as the team playing differently it would be that for the majority of our poor run under Allardyce he set the side out in a 4-5-1 formation that clearly didn't work. In games that we either rescued or played well from the start we have usually played 4-4-2. Now the response to this is always that we have not had the players available to play this formation; but in recent weeks the increased use of McCarthy, Samba up front, Villanueva up front, MGP up front, Tugay playing more in central midfield and the rotation of Dunn and Grella would in fact support the view that it is possible even with our depleted squad and these are all ideas that I have been putting forward for several weeks (I do not like Samba alone up front). Now, you can bury your head in a hole and think that long ball lumping is all that is available is fine, or that there is nothing between that and trying to play like Brazil, but such possibilities do exist.

Please use specific matches, so that I can judge whether you're correct or not. You're possibly referring to Fulham? Again, not saying you're wrong, so don't get upset, I just am unsure of the matches we played 4-4-2 and those we played 4-5-1 in. I always thought we mixed it up depending on the situation.

[imy9]

There were people interested in the summer and in the winter whom I would have preferred. I'm sure the list of interested managers would be long and if the position were to become available when this club is in the premiership.

I'm not giving him no credit. He's done a decent job of making us more organised and he's done the job at hand, but I really don't think it is something that only he, or even a fairly exclusive group of managers, could have achieved. His winter dealings were mediocre, our form picked up during the "honeymoon" period but since then has been close to relegation form. He's been extremely unlucky with injuries, but the same didn't prevent the knives from being sharpened for Ince. I'm glad we changed managers and I can see why the club chose him as he was a very safe option, but I don't think he is the long-term solution and think the club will be better off now the sooner he is gone. I don't have any strong dislike for the man as an individual, I don't want to see him fail and I will always support him as long as he is our manager, but I don't think he is the right man for the job.

I am confused he signed Diouf and Givet both of whom have been resounding successes, no?

The relegation form is nonsense, has it not been proven already that based on Sam's game/ point ratio we would easily be in the top 10?

The knives came out for Ince because we were losing games, 13 points from 17 games proves this, no?

Your opinion is valid but I would ask the simple question, how attractive was the football under Hughes? Big Sam has been and IS a more successful manager than Hughes in the toughest league in the world, he left Bolton vying for a Champions league place late in the season, if we played long ball football BUT won and were in that position, would you complain? I'll tell you my opinion, I want to win football games, I have seen enough defeats this season for a couple of seasons!

[DE.]

I've actually got our results up on a board at work, and there's no way our recent form is relegation form... for that, you'd want to look at Boro, Newcastle, Hull, West Brom, Sunderland... aren't we 11th or 12th in the form table?

[Guest Vinjay606]

Mancini, MANCINI! Coming here? You've more chance of seeing Jesus land in a flying saucer on the centre spot.

Well unlike Jesus he applied.

[Eddie]

Wigan, Spurs at the end of the match, Fulham second half, Stoke, Newcastle...

Look for the games we have won and you will see 4-4-2.

Allardyce has done well, but equally he has been helped by the ineptitude of the sides around us. If you don't believe simply look at the fact that West Ham, City and Spurs were only a few points off us when Ince was sacked (5, 5 and 6 respectively), but now all sit in the top half. Equally, if you do the "carry this form out over the course of the season logic", had the form from our rivals over the second half been copied into the first half of the season, at the time of Ince's sacking we would have been 17th with a game in hand, two points off of safety, but only three points off of the position we currently sit in (also 6 points off bottom).

My point isn't that Ince is a good manager (or was at least), but more that we shouldn't judge Allardyce based purely on what the lower half of the table says and should do it more based on how the side is playing and whether or not he is producing the results that we think he should and getting the best out of the players. You can't make a definitive conclusion based on so far as it isn't his team and he took over in a difficult situation and has suffered from injuries, but having said that we have performed badly against a lot of sides and he certainly isn't getting the best out of the players. If we stay up he will have done his job, but these will be things I will be looking at next year. I won't be offering him a totally clean slate as we should be looking at how he handles the current situation.

This has been an odd premiership season, very much a tale of two halves for most sides apart from the top four, so we need to look beyond a limited number of statistics. Staying in the top flight is obviously the key one, but if that is the only way you want to judge him now, but our future is in the hands of this man and he needs to show that he is capable.

[Eddie]

I am confused he signed Diouf and Givet both of whom have been resounding successes, no?

The relegation form is nonsense, has it not been proven already that based on Sam's game/ point ratio we would easily be in the top 10?

The knives came out for Ince because we were losing games, 13 points from 17 games proves this, no?

Diouf certainly hasn't been a resounding success for me. He's done a job, but he's unspectacular. If he wasn't a new signing he'd be getting a lot more criticism than he is.

Whilst that statistic is encouraging, it's also misleading. Almost every side in the premiership has had a huge variation in form from one half to the other and I'm sure West Ham, Villa, City, Everton, Hull, Spurs and even the likes of Botlon and Boro would love to take one half and carry it over into the other. The fact remains that this second half of the season has seen some of the worst form from a large group of premiership sides the league has ever seen and, for the most part, that has been who we have picked points up from. Now there isn't anything wrong with that, but anyone who thinks that this sort of form is sustainable or could lead to a top-half finish in the future is looking at the situation in a very one-dimensional manner. Our upturn in form (or poor performance in the first half if you would prefer) is obviously a more interesting statistic because a change of manager is involved, but there are reasons for all of the sides who have seen such drastic changes and if you are going to use that sort of a statistic as a way of putting a blanket over what is happening at the moment then you need to do a lot number crunching.

[Paul Mellelieu]

And so I add Eddie to Vinjay and Rover6 to my ignore list.

[DE.]

Wigan, Spurs at the end of the match, Fulham second half, Stoke, Newcastle...

Look for the games we have won and you will see 4-4-2.

Allardyce has done well, but equally he has been helped by the ineptitude of the sides around us. If you don't believe simply look at the fact that West Ham, City and Spurs were only a few points off us when Ince was sacked (5, 5 and 6 respectively), but now all sit in the top half. Equally, if you do the "carry this form out over the course of the season logic", had the form from our rivals over the second half been copied into the first half of the season, at the time of Ince's sacking we would have been 17th with a game in hand, two points off of safety, but only three points off of the position we currently sit in (also 6 points off bottom).

My point isn't that Ince is a good manager (or was at least), but more that we shouldn't judge Allardyce based purely on what the lower half of the table says and should do it more based on how the side is playing and whether or not he is producing the results that we think he should and getting the best out of the players. You can't make a definitive conclusion based on so far as it isn't his team and he took over in a difficult situation and has suffered from injuries, but having said that we have performed badly against a lot of sides and he certainly isn't getting the best out of the players. If we stay up he will have done his job, but these will be things I will be looking at next year. I won't be offering him a totally clean slate as we should be looking at how he handles the current situation.

This has been an odd premiership season, very much a tale of two halves for most sides apart from the top four, so we need to look beyond a limited number of statistics. Staying in the top flight is obviously the key one, but if that is the only way you want to judge him now, but our future is in the hands of this man and he needs to show that he is capable.

I agree with you on some points... though arguably 4-4-2 at Spurs came about only because they went down to 10 men, Wigan was often Samba playing behind McCarthy getting knock downs and flick ons, Stoke was at a time when we were injury-free up front, etc... the fact Sam can see when to switch to 4-4-2 is surely a good thing? there's no guarentee playing 4-4-2 for the entirely of Spurs or Fulham would have produced the same results. An opposing team has to adapt to our change in formation from rigid 4-5-1 to a more attacking 4-4-2, which can knock them off balance (Fulham in particular I think were unable to adapt to our sudden change of pace).

My judgement of Sam will come after the summer... I think we'll know from his signings and sellings what route he plans to take our club. It could be long ball percentage football - but if it produces the same results as Bolton, can we argue against it?

[Eddie]

If he makes us a top 10 side every season than I won't, but I haven't seen anything from him in his last two jobs to suggest that he is capable of doing that (albeit two rather small sample sizes). Here's to him proving me wrong.

[yoda]

Well unlike Jesus he applied.

how do you know for sure, on both points?

[Guest Vinjay606]

1. Jesus probably would have got the job had he applied.

2. Alan Nixon and others said Mancini applied.

[yoda]

1. Jesus probably would have got the job had he applied.

2. Alan Nixon and others said Mancini applied.

well it must be true then, are you sure Jesus has the correct qualifications though, I seem to remember he got crucified in his last job!

[DE.]

1. Jesus probably would have got the job had he applied.

2. Alan Nixon and others said Mancini applied.

Explain why Mancini would have been better equipped for a relegation battle in the EPL than Allardyce in December.

Don't use Kidd and Hart in comparison. Don't talk about takeovers.

Go.

[yoda]

Explain why Mancini would have been better equipped for a relegation battle in the EPL than Allardyce in December.

Don't use Kidd and Hart in comparison. Don't talk about takeovers.

Go.

ooops, no instant reply from the gay vinjay, wheels have fell off

[bobsterbrfc]

i can't believe people who call themselves rovers fans dare to criticise allardyce.

even at 3-0 down on saturday, i thought to myself, "just be thankful we'll most probably be in the premiership next season".

the man is cobbling together starting elevens from the wreckage of injuries and the poisonous mess ince left him.

[gumboots]

Yep Gay lovers.

Wrong, but they are next door neightbours in that fantasy land they both inhabit!

[Stuart]

PREMIERSHIP FOOTBALL.

Every time you question if there are players, coaches or managers who would be interested in this club read what I just wrote above.

Is that your stock answer because you can't think of one either but have some blind hope?

I used to think similarly to you but it doesn't work that way. I thought that we should have been able to bring in a 'better' sponsor than Crown - one that might have enhanced the clubs reputation and made the shirts much more marketable but that doesn't seem to be the way of it. There aren't many people outside of Blackburn - and who weren't born in the area - who have any love for the club. (Our overseas friends on this board accepted).

Managers who will come to Rovers are those who have a point to prove probably as a result of a recent failure. So on those lines we are looking at those who have been sacked and likely feel that they haven't been given a fair crack of the whip. "I'll show them". It shouldn't be a surprise then when the press linked us with the likes of Henk Ten Cate, Allardyce and McClaren.

Also, take a look around the managers who aren't in the top 6: Tony Mowbray, Gareth Southgate, Alan Shearer, Phil Brown, Paul Hart, Gary Megson, Harry Redknapp, Gianfranco Zola, Roy Hodgson, Tony Pulis, Mark Hughes, Steve Bruce, Ricky Sbragia.

Is Sam Allardyce really any worse than any of these managers? Possibly Roy Hodgson and Harry Redknapp would run him close. Southgate, Brown, Shearer, Zola might be ones for the future but 3 out of 4 of those are looking like being relegated.

Surely there are better managers out there than people like Hart, Megson, Sbragia, for instance? Where were the great managers, desperate to come to the PREMIER LEAGUE when there were openings at these clubs? And Sunderland have got money to spend - or at least they had!

Now take a look at those managers bringing teams into the Premier League (or attempting to):

Mick McCarthy, Alex McLeish, Alan Irvine, Owen Coyle, Steve Coppell, Neil Warnock

Who would you take out of these managers? Warnock? Coppell? Coyle??

After that, we are realistically looking at a non-Champions League manager from either Spain, Italy, Germany, or France. Any of which would be a gamble in this league. Back in August, we were in a position to take a chance - or at least John Williams believed we were. By my reckoning we went with the wrong one but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

However, if this season has taught us one thing, it is that we cannot take another gamble for a long time yet. We just don't have the resources to be able to stick with a management prospect and bounce back from relegation. Making this a key assumption, I don't see who we could take on who would be an improvement on Allardyce during this period. McClaren? Curbishley? Souness? Hoddle?

Let's get this season out of the way and see what Sam does during the Summer transfer window. Looking at some of the rumours already flying around, it may be one where we have to swallow our pride, lose a few 'big names' in order to bring in a some decent players.

If I had to put money on our survival next season (assuming we make survival) then I'd be putting it on Big Sam rather than taking another gamble.

Unless we can lever some money from the trust or get some external finance, we can't afford the types of players we need to play beautiful flowing football. We can try but we would end up where West Brom are - and they didn't have the half season handicap that we did.

If I was John Williams I'd be looking at contingencies should Sam decide to go at some point but in the meantime I'd be letting him get on with it.

Unless you are in the "Top 4" plus Everton, Aston Villa or from London, the "But it's the PREMIER LEAGUE" argument sounds a little hollow.