[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[Mr Creosote]

Don't throw your toys out the pram just because I do not agree with your constant arguing!

Ouch. That shuts me up.

ffs

[Parsonblue]

With respect it wont be you who has to watch it week in week out.

I watch Rovers home and away every week and would be delighted to see Big Sam in charge if there was to be a change of manager. I watched the Rovers when we slipped from the top of the old First Division to the bottom of the Third Division. Compared with that experience watching Sam Allardyce's style of football would be a treat.

Some of the most boring football that I have witnessed was played when Howard Kendall was manager. We delighted in grinding out 1-0 wins. Did I enjoy it? You bet I did, as we gained promotion in his first season and just missed out on a second successive promotion the following year. Winning is what attracts support. The football we played under Bob Saxton was better than that played under Kendall but the crowds dropped away in the eighties and only returned when Kenny and Ray arrived.

Ultimately, if Ince is going to survive he is going to have to become more pragmatic anyway and adapt his style of play because the one we are using at the moment is clearly not working as 3 points from the last 24 seems to testify.

[BuckyRover]

Sod the style, who will keep us in the Premier League this season?

Allardyce

Who has a great track record of getting his players super fit?

Allardyce

Who invented finding obscure and seemingly washed-out players and turning them into Premier League players?

Allardyce

Who has managed a small Lancashire club to three consecutive top ten finishes?

Allardyce and Hughes

Anyone arguing with this?

Who has been unemployed for over a year?

Allardyce

Who constantly annoyed me whilst manager of Bolton in particular during our promotion season?

Allardyce

Who is a Bolton legend and shouldn't really be idolised in this way by any self-respecting Blackburn fan?

Allardyce

[Hughesy]

Who didnt get the England Job? Allardyce

Who got sacked from the Toon? Allardyce

Who looks like he is about to die of a heart attack? Allardyce

Who looks like he is a character out of the Royal Family? Allardyce

Who pulled out of the last job? Allardyce

[thenodrog]

Who didnt get the England Job? Allardyce

Who got sacked from the Toon? Allardyce

Who looks like he is about to die of a heart attack? Allardyce

Who looks like he is a character out of the Royal Family? Allardyce

Who pulled out of the last job? Allardyce

Turn this around. If we sack Ince, which must be rather more probability than possibility, then who would come to BRFC with a better track record, is better qualified and knowing there is no money to spend?

'Arry' wouldn't have touched us with the proverbial barge pole.

[DingleBaiter]

For the Allardyce apologists out there; what makes you think he'd want the job in the first place?

All this talk about his merits & his demons is all well & good - but how realistic, on a percentage scale, is it he would be offered the position do we think?

Would be nice for TG's mike to actually answer a question rather than blinkeredly ignoring everything that may chip away at his infatuation with the bovine one.....

I don't like Allardyce for the multitude of reasons previously listed. However, I don't disagree he's had some measure of success a certain way nor do I disagree that 'needs must' if the situation declines any further. Clearly, there's parallels in achievements and style between his Bolton side and Hughes' Rovers side.

However, given the following reasons I'd suggest he's nowhere near as likely as some would like to think he is of getting the gig.

1. He's already been looked over once.

2. He's already (apparently) disagreed with the prospective contract on the table.

3. It would require some measure of face-saving by the board in eating humble pie.

4. It would be a divisive choice.

5. For all the talk of similarities between us and the mob down t'road, the situation is more akin to the Newcastle job (short time-scale, big expectations, restless natives etc. - he'd have to hit the ground running and get people onside very quickly, not look for steady growth.

6. IMO his arrival would tip Roque and Warnock into finding their moves in January.

7. I simply can't believe he would consider the job unless significant financial commitments for players, wages, and having HIS scouting & backroom staff in were made.

8. I would suggest JW wouldn't welcome a manager he couldn't control.

9. Ultimately, it would require the board to get out of their comfort zone - financial and otherwise - to bring him in, which I'd suggest is unlikely.

I'd put his chances at 50% (at best) of him getting the job (IF it becomes available). IMO it's unlikely to go to another shortlist situation, so the board would probably decide on a candidate they'd be confident would take the job. I just think they'll bottle it when it comes down it and look to a 'path of least resistance' candidate.

Needless to say, our bookmaker friends probably wouldn't consider the above & it's safe to presume he would be the favourite for the job.

I just think - even putting aside my opinion of him as the Antichrist - it's a step too far by those in suits at Ewood.

[tony gale's mic]

Who didnt get the England Job? Allardyce

Who got sacked from the Toon? Allardyce

Who looks like he is about to die of a heart attack? Allardyce

Who looks like he is a character out of the Royal Family? Allardyce

Who pulled out of the last job? Allardyce

Jesus, if he's not good enough for England he must not be good enough for us!

Is it me or did the only two blokes to win us trophies in the modern era also get sacked from Newcastle? I see a pattern emerging..

Scolari doesn't look the healthiest chap either. Is this another pattern?

I would've thought someone regal would fit the bill

And we all know he didn't pull out...

[tony gale's mic]

For the Allardyce apologists out there; what makes you think he'd want the job in the first place?

All this talk about his merits & his demons is all well & good - but how realistic, on a percentage scale, is it he would be offered the position do we think?

Would be nice for TG's mike to actually answer a question rather than blinkeredly ignoring everything that may chip away at his infatuation with the bovine one.....

Name me something I haven't responded to...I would say most of the blinkered folk are the anti-Sam folk. Most of them won't answer the simple question about whether they'd prefer pretty football and be relegated or play Sam football and compete for Europe regularly. Pretty football is only good to watch when you're winning matches. Otherwise passes get misplaced, defences fall apart and its ten times more painful to watch as a fan than a Sam Allardyce team.

I think he'd want the job as he's desperate to get back into management, won't get offered a job outside England, wouldn't take a job outside the Premiership, wouldn't get offered a job by the big 4 plus another 5-6 clubs as they'll feel they can get a better option (maybe they can). So that leaves 10 teams at most that Sam could even possibly be a candidate for. And then they might not pick him, he might not be satisfied, whereas Blackburn are a club that was similar to his last one, close geographically etc etc.

And I'd say your assessment of 50% at most is probably fair.

[DingleBaiter]

Name me something I haven't responded to...I would say most of the blinkered folk are the anti-Sam folk. Most of them won't answer the simple question about whether they'd prefer pretty football and be relegated or play Sam football and compete for Europe regularly. Pretty football is only good to watch when you're winning matches. Otherwise passes get misplaced, defences fall apart and its ten times more painful to watch as a fan than a Sam Allardyce team.

I think he'd want the job as he's desperate to get back into management, won't get offered a job outside England, wouldn't take a job outside the Premiership, wouldn't get offered a job by the big 4 plus another 5-6 clubs as they'll feel they can get a better option (maybe they can). So that leaves 10 teams at most that Sam could even possibly be a candidate for. And then they might not pick him, he might not be satisfied, whereas Blackburn are a club that was similar to his last one, close geographically etc etc.

And I'd say your assessment of 50% at most is probably fair.

Why should they answer your questions when you conveniently overlook anything that doesn't fit your ideal of SA? It's like if someone disputes your points, you denigrate them as not being relevant, yet expect an answer that's already been tacitly responded to by the fans' acceptance of Hughes's style.

You've responded - but not answered, or countered; your generic response seems to be to either demand empirical evidence of people's opinions or just to overlook any points they make!

It's like when people get pushed into 'camps' on the Ince situation; it's possible to have some middle ground surely?

I don't like SA one iota, or anything he stands for. That doesn't mean I won't have an objective debate on his merits or otherwise. As much as I'd like to think there would be some hope he doesn't darken our doorstep, that doesn't mean I would decry him being successful if he did come.

There is a place for effective football at Rovers, surely ANY fan would prefer winning football no matter what the style is? We didn't gripe under Dalglish did we - often it's a question of standpoint; some teams play wooden footy but score goals and win games, surely they'd argue that was exciting?

I disagree with the notion that Ince's football is exciting, or even attacking in itself. Without getting all Statto or Charles Hughes, we don't create or convert enough, we don't pass along the back four for 'nothing balls' as much, we prefer pretty triangles in midfield, we rely on Robbo kicking instead of throwing, and we hit it long & hopeful rather than direct.

I think the style of football under Hughes was more honest, and somewhat more positive & less cynical than SA's Bolton game. I happen to believe SA relies too much on dead balls, science and negativity in his game, though he espouses Hughes' mantra of physical, pressing, effort-driven football which fans often like to see as much as flowery footy without an end product.

To answer your question, I want to see COMPETENT football first and foremost (which I don't think we are doing). Football that allows the players to show their effort, skill and commitment to the best of their abilities. If SA comes in, and gets the players doing that better than PI is doing; all is well with the world. Ultimately, I'd rather see a team relegated knowing they did their best, even if it wasn't good enough, than to see a side that we all know can do better get relegated.

I'd still like to think - though everything's indicating otherwise, there's still hope - that Ince can get ultimately manage the players to do what's needed, whichever coaching mantra they follow. However, he's drinking in the last chance saloon IMO and is probably a sitting duck just now. If he wins against Pompey, to the detractors he's still some way from redemeption; if he loses, it's likely there will be some intervention (even if only a comment from JW), otherwise 'there's going to be an eruption' (thanks, Bob Hoskins) come the Liverpool game, when the fans will probably shout for the board (as that's sure to make them act).

At least SA will put a team out that will kick Liverpool to bits and give them a game (unlike United and Arsenal); whilst not advocating this as 'good football', it would appease the fans somewhat....

[Zulu]

Who looks like he is a character out of the Royal Family? Allardyce

Do you mean like Prince Philip, or do you mean like the Royle family?

[tony gale's mic]

Why should they answer your questions when you conveniently overlook anything that doesn't fit your ideal of SA? It's like if someone disputes your points, you denigrate them as not being relevant, yet expect an answer that's already been tacitly responded to by the fans' acceptance of Hughes's style.

You've responded - but not answered, or countered; your generic response seems to be to either demand empirical evidence of people's opinions or just to overlook any points they make!

It's like when people get pushed into 'camps' on the Ince situation; it's possible to have some middle ground surely?

I don't like SA one iota, or anything he stands for. That doesn't mean I won't have an objective debate on his merits or otherwise. As much as I'd like to think there would be some hope he doesn't darken our doorstep, that doesn't mean I would decry him being successful if he did come.

There is a place for effective football at Rovers, surely ANY fan would prefer winning football no matter what the style is? We didn't gripe under Dalglish did we - often it's a question of standpoint; some teams play wooden footy but score goals and win games, surely they'd argue that was exciting?

I disagree with the notion that Ince's football is exciting, or even attacking in itself. Without getting all Statto or Charles Hughes, we don't create or convert enough, we don't pass along the back four for 'nothing balls' as much, we prefer pretty triangles in midfield, we rely on Robbo kicking instead of throwing, and we hit it long & hopeful rather than direct.

I think the style of football under Hughes was more honest, and somewhat more positive & less cynical than SA's Bolton game. I happen to believe SA relies too much on dead balls, science and negativity in his game, though he espouses Hughes' mantra of physical, pressing, effort-driven football which fans often like to see as much as flowery footy without an end product.

To answer your question, I want to see COMPETENT football first and foremost (which I don't think we are doing). Football that allows the players to show their effort, skill and commitment to the best of their abilities. If SA comes in, and gets the players doing that better than PI is doing; all is well with the world. Ultimately, I'd rather see a team relegated knowing they did their best, even if it wasn't good enough, than to see a side that we all know can do better get relegated.

I'd still like to think - though everything's indicating otherwise, there's still hope - that Ince can get ultimately manage the players to do what's needed, whichever coaching mantra they follow. However, he's drinking in the last chance saloon IMO and is probably a sitting duck just now. If he wins against Pompey, to the detractors he's still some way from redemeption; if he loses, it's likely there will be some intervention (even if only a comment from JW), otherwise 'there's going to be an eruption' (thanks, Bob Hoskins) come the Liverpool game, when the fans will probably shout for the board (as that's sure to make them act).

At least SA will put a team out that will kick Liverpool to bits and give them a game (unlike United and Arsenal); whilst not advocating this as 'good football', it would appease the fans somewhat....

Sure and you occupy that middle ground. But the people for me whose opinions are irrelevant are those who won't have him at Rovers no matter what, who are so anti-Sam that they won't acknowledge the good points. You're the only person I've seen who's answered that question, and I've asked it several times. Take our friend Hughesy before who had gripes with him being sacked from Newcastle, not getting the England job, and then ran out of points so made points about his appearance. Those points are utterly irrelevant for the reasons I posted earlier in reply to him.

I'd say I answer pretty much everyone's points, I certainly won't be dragged into the laborious task of dredging up my previous posts in this thread as I know what you posted there was complete nonsense (that particular point about my posts, I agree with a fair amount of the rest of it). If you want to name some points I haven't answered then feel free. I've not overlooked what people have said about Sam's footballing style (which let's face it forms the one and only main argument here) as much as acknowledged it but argued that it shouldn't be our main priority right now.

If it was a straight choice between Allardyce and a Hughes clone, yes I'd choose Hughes. If it was summer and the table started afresh, then I'd maybe be tempted again into someone who could potentially get us playing nice football and doing well, but would be a bit of a risk. Not someone from League Two mind, in my eyes that was always far too much of a jump but that's another argument.

But with the situation we're in we want a safe pair of hands who we know has done a very similar job to what we want doing at a very similar club. I used to be anti-Sam too. But he is the most perfect fit we can get in this situation. Very few people can actually name a better alternative. The ideal candidate doesn't exist, the man who will stand a great chance of taking us out of this mess, has similar experiences, plays lovely football, can manage on a shoestring.

[DingleBaiter]

Nice response, I like it when there's balanced debate. I admit I am unbalanced in the extreme against SA, but not to the detriment of the success of our club. It's more a purist stance than practical one, I concede that.

However, Sam's excellence as a candidate is based somewhat on his availability, no? Therein lies a large chunk of my fear about him. He's not the best candidate, he's the best AVAILABLE candidate. On that basis, are we not selling ourselves short somewhat?

Look at the guys that end up with the Martha Dumptruck when the lights go up at any nightclub; they take what they can at the time, but the next morning, the next time they're out I'm sure they vow to go about things differently? I don't want the equivalent of a 'double bagger' as our next manager, thanks....

I would like to think - no matter how unlikely - that the Sam candidacy is ultimately a function of 'needs must' based on several things, not least our boards's reluctance to stick to Jack's biggest tenet - THINK BIG!!!

There must be some middle ground between employing the Antichrist and actually being bold enough to bring in someone of calibre rather than someone we know will likely take the job. For instance, I feel the board won't even consider a 'continental' coach - which kinda reduces our options somewhat. I'm not suggesting Sven, or Mourinho, but Laudrup, Bilic, Martin Jol would arguably be more expensive or bolder moves than someone like SA. Even sticking to British managers, there's a better candidate still living in Hurst Green who spends half his time at Ewood - however, given his contract and present club, people would ignore this out-of-hand rather 'thinking big' and going for him.

Ultimately, we shouldn't lower our expectations to settle for what's available or what requires the least outlay. We should go for what's in the best interests of our clubs, not the path of least resistance.

"Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor."

(Bill Shankly)

PS. Just to add some meat onto the bones on this 'shoestring' concept; could someone better placed in the affairs of Bolton point us in the direction of some sound data?

I'd be interested in seeing under SA's tenure how the following panned out -year on year wage bills-transfers in-transfers out-size of squad-net profit/loss on transfers-backroom staff size-agents fees. Cheers!

[Majiball]

There must be some middle ground between employing the Antichrist and actually being bold enough to bring in someone of calibre rather than someone we know will likely take the job. For instance, I feel the board won't even consider a 'continental' coach - which kinda reduces our options somewhat. I'm not suggesting Sven, or Mourinho, but Laudrup, Bilic, Martin Jol would arguably be more expensive or bolder moves than someone like SA. Even sticking to British managers, there's a better candidate still living in Hurst Green who spends half his time at Ewood - however, given his contract and present club, people would ignore this out-of-hand rather 'thinking big' and going for him.

And who pray tell would that be?

I have to say I'm with you over BFS, I'd rather have George graham. His history with Bolton should mean he never manages our club. Could you imagine Kenny running Rangers? Sourness at Celtic? its no different with BFS the man made the club, they are our nearest rivals.

You've summed up my feelings rather well in that post, "Think Big" I hope so.

[tony gale's mic]

Nice response, I like it when there's balanced debate. I admit I am unbalanced in the extreme against SA, but not to the detriment of the success of our club. It's more a purist stance than practical one, I concede that.

However, Sam's excellence as a candidate is based somewhat on his availability, no? Therein lies a large chunk of my fear about him. He's not the best candidate, he's the best AVAILABLE candidate. On that basis, are we not selling ourselves short somewhat?

Look at the guys that end up with the Martha Dumptruck when the lights go up at any nightclub; they take what they can at the time, but the next morning, the next time they're out I'm sure they vow to go about things differently? I don't want the equivalent of a 'double bagger' as our next manager, thanks....

I would like to think - no matter how unlikely - that the Sam candidacy is ultimately a function of 'needs must' based on several things, not least our boards's reluctance to stick to Jack's biggest tenet - THINK BIG!!!

There must be some middle ground between employing the Antichrist and actually being bold enough to bring in someone of calibre rather than someone we know will likely take the job. For instance, I feel the board won't even consider a 'continental' coach - which kinda reduces our options somewhat. I'm not suggesting Sven, or Mourinho, but Laudrup, Bilic, Martin Jol would arguably be more expensive or bolder moves than someone like SA. Even sticking to British managers, there's a better candidate still living in Hurst Green who spends half his time at Ewood - however, given his contract and present club, people would ignore this out-of-hand rather 'thinking big' and going for him.

Ultimately, we shouldn't lower our expectations to settle for what's available or what requires the least outlay. We should go for what's in the best interests of our clubs, not the path of least resistance.

"Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor."

(Bill Shankly)

PS. Just to add some meat onto the bones on this 'shoestring' concept; could someone better placed in the affairs of Bolton point us in the direction of some sound data?

I'd be interested in seeing under SA's tenure how the following panned out -year on year wage bills-transfers in-transfers out-size of squad-net profit/loss on transfers-backroom staff size-agents fees. Cheers!

Sam isn't the Antichrist, he only appears so now. If he gets us to where he got Bolton, trust me, the fans will be singing his name and so would you. Look at what Bolton did under him. Now I am not for one minute remotely comparing the skills of Fat Sam to the skills of Fabio Capello or Sir Alex, but imagine if either of those had taken charge of Bolton at that point of time when he did. With a select few teams starting to open up a gap at the top so no real hope of competing for the title. Would they have done much better than taken them back into the Premiership, kept them consistently around the European places and even near a Champions League spot? Theres a good chance they wouldve done similar feats, but given the funds and size of club no manager could have done more.

Obviously SAF and Capello are better, stick Allardyce in charge of Man U England blah blah yeah, but we need the best man for the job. I don't believe we are selling us short. Surely appointing a man with no level of experience above League Two was selling ourselves short? Appointing a man with a proven Premier League track record is fair game. It's harsh to beat him with the Newcastle stick when our only two managers of recent times to win silverware also got sacked there.

There isn't a day I don't wish we didnt get Laudrup, as someone who's brought that up several times now it still stuns me that JW made that call as quite frankly it was an awful call from day one. The fact he had his first choice as Shearer too has started to put some doubts in my mind about our Chairman's judgement. But now Laudrup is doing well in Russia, Bilic if we can get him then I'd choose him, and Jol wouldn't be a bad shout.

But even with those guys, how many of them have had prolonged success with a club like ours on a shoestring budget? Allardyce took Bolton upto similar positions as Jol took Spurs, maybe one or two places lower but spent a lot less money. Bilic hasn't had league management experience although he would still be my first choice.

Who's the manager who lives at Hurst Green?

To be fair we didn't properly sound out Bilic last time and he'd be my first choice. But this thread was created more because we shouldn't have the vehement opposition we had before (and I was part of it), especially in this situation. He should be a leading candidate if and when Ince is removed and people shouldn't be in such massive opposition over him, especially since he does compare favourably to any other candidate thanks to his previous experience.

Put it this way: There is not a single manager out there who has past experience and successes that fits us so perfectly. He may not be the best manager out there but going through both people we could realistically get and people we couldn't, I struggle to think of anyone who's succeeded like Allardyce has in such a similar club and under similar circumstances.

That alone should make him a serious candidate. It's the fact people won't consider him as one that seems utterly illogical.

[47er]

For the Allardyce apologists out there; what makes you think he'd want the job in the first place?

All this talk about his merits & his demons is all well & good - but how realistic, on a percentage scale, is it he would be offered the position do we think?

Would be nice for TG's mike to actually answer a question rather than blinkeredly ignoring everything that may chip away at his infatuation with the bovine one.....

I don't like Allardyce for the multitude of reasons previously listed. However, I don't disagree he's had some measure of success a certain way nor do I disagree that 'needs must' if the situation declines any further. Clearly, there's parallels in achievements and style between his Bolton side and Hughes' Rovers side.

However, given the following reasons I'd suggest he's nowhere near as likely as some would like to think he is of getting the gig.

1. He's already been looked over once.

2. He's already (apparently) disagreed with the prospective contract on the table.

3. It would require some measure of face-saving by the board in eating humble pie.

4. It would be a divisive choice.

5. For all the talk of similarities between us and the mob down t'road, the situation is more akin to the Newcastle job (short time-scale, big expectations, restless natives etc. - he'd have to hit the ground running and get people onside very quickly, not look for steady growth.

6. IMO his arrival would tip Roque and Warnock into finding their moves in January.

7. I simply can't believe he would consider the job unless significant financial commitments for players, wages, and having HIS scouting & backroom staff in were made.

8. I would suggest JW wouldn't welcome a manager he couldn't control.

9. Ultimately, it would require the board to get out of their comfort zone - financial and otherwise - to bring him in, which I'd suggest is unlikely.

I'd put his chances at 50% (at best) of him getting the job (IF it becomes available). IMO it's unlikely to go to another shortlist situation, so the board would probably decide on a candidate they'd be confident would take the job. I just think they'll bottle it when it comes down it and look to a 'path of least resistance' candidate.

Needless to say, our bookmaker friends probably wouldn't consider the above & it's safe to presume he would be the favourite for the job.

I just think - even putting aside my opinion of him as the Antichrist - it's a step too far by those in suits at Ewood.

OK I'll bite:

1 Over-looked maybe? That was a mistake. Time to rectify it.

2 "apparently"!---although he will be in a somewhat stronger position this time

3 tough----they got us into this mess, the humble pie is earned

4 Ince is a divisive choice and was at the time. A winning run would fix that, even a competitive one

5 Don't agree. He'd have to hit the ground running cos there is so much gound to make up. Same is true of any new manager. I've no hope that Ince can do it.

6 they won't be staying as things are will they?

7 he considered it last time and all those considerations were relevant then

8 So JW controls Ince? Perhaps we'd better sack him as well then.

9 He ran Bolton with less money than we had. I don't follow this point. I think you just wanted to get to 9!

Summing up I don't believe you have put aside your opinion of him as the Antichrist, a term which,in my opinion, should be reserved for something more important than football.

[Parsonblue]

Personally, I have always thought that Sam Allardyce was the perfect candidate to follow Hughes. The Rovers is different from the majority of Premiership clubs in terms of finance. Bolton is very similar - although at the moment they probably have more money to spend than ourselves.

Our financial position means that the club requires a certain kind of manager. I would immediately rule out some of the foreign names that have been mentioned as they lack the experience of Premiership football. I think one of the problems we have now is that we have a manager who is still learning his trade. If we survive this season he may well be all the stronger for the experience. However, ultimately, we have gambled the future of the club on a novice in terms of Premiership management.

I believed in the summer - and still do - that Allardyce ticks all the boxes that the manager of Blackburn Rovers needs.

He is well versed in the transfer market.

He can spot a bargain and has the ability to get the best out of players whom others have cast aside.

He has a good tactical understanding and can make his teams difficult to beat.

He has a thorough knowledge of the most up to date coaching and training techniques.

Of course, he would split opinion amongst the fans. However, the fans have been split over the present manager since day one. While some of us have wanted him to be given the opportunity to establish himself it has been clear that there are many who simply don't want him because of his lack of experience. In any event, what the fans want shouldn't really enter into it. The directors must select the man whom they feel will safeguard the future of the club and maintain its status in the Premiership irrespective of the views of a clique of supporters.

I actually believe that this debate, with regard to a successor to Paul Ince, is going to be academic as I have come to the conclusion that John Williams will stick with the man he appointed in the summer.

[tony gale's mic]

And who pray tell would that be?

I have to say I'm with you over BFS, I'd rather have George graham. His history with Bolton should mean he never manages our club. Could you imagine Kenny running Rangers? Sourness at Celtic? its no different with BFS the man made the club, they are our nearest rivals.

What a ridiculous thing to say.

It is completely different! Our "enemy" are Burnley and even then you can't compare it to Rangers vs Celtic, almost nothing compares to Rangers vs Celtic!

Sure they're one of our rivals but that is some Grade A tripe you've just spouted. Our hero Matt Jansen joined them, what a traitor! I'm sure Kevin Davies has trouble sleeping at night. I'm sure local lad David Dunn had major issues with signing for Bolton before we swept in, you know since he had a medical and everything...

That's three examples in the last few years, I think about that many players have transferred between Rangers and Celtic in the history of football.

[DingleBaiter]

Sam isn't the Antichrist, he only appears so now. If he gets us to where he got Bolton, trust me, the fans will be singing his name and so would you.

I'm afraid I won't be - IF he came in, and no matter what he achieved. I'd say well done, there you go - glad to be proven wrong. It's the same as Robbie Savage; had my views of them but never once cheered the fella - glad we had him though, and recognised his contribution. There IS a stance to be taken there; some may view that as hypocrisy, but it's down to the individual after all.

David Moyes spends much of his available time at Ewood; speaks well of the club (when it's objective and fitting to do so) and (one season apart) has achieved arguably more consistent success at his last two clubs, including a better record of bringing Academy players through - supposedly one of the criteria Ince was judged more likely fit the 'model' we were looking achieve over the next 3 years - with much less of the 'baggage' SA brings. Doesn't play purist football, though the media tend to overlook that fact more than they did Rovers or Bolton.

So - cost of acquisition and present employment notwithstanding - is SA a better choice as a manager than DM? OK, he's on a good contract - but he wasn't when we were looking in the Summer, and neither were we in such a poor position - and probably would only move upwards, or to Celtic. The point being isn't if he is attainable, but is Sam still a stronger shout? In all fairness, I think the only reasons SA would be are availability & cost to acquire.

On the subject of Martin Jol, let's not forget he had to manage the players given him - he didn't choose them, Comolli (sp?) did. Therefore one could argue he fits the basic managerial criteria of getting to players to play for him. Similar reasons as to why national managers are good choices (generally) as they have to work with what they have - unless you're a certain English Irish manager and have a mate in the passport office - and get the best of your hand. Another aspect to Bilic, Advocaat, & Jol is they have good experience of our country/leagues as well as continental time served, so should be fair coaches too. After all, Hughes didn't have Premiership managerial experience did he?

As for SA being the Antichrist; he stands for everything bad in my perception of football. If it's perfectly okay to call Keegan and others 'the Messiah', then equally it's perfectly okay to call Sam the Antichrist. I'll bet that music plays whenever he enters the boardroom just like in 'Fools and Horses'....

What I don't get about Ince is it's not like he's limited in his ideas, concepts and what he wants to do - it's more his application and lack of consistency. I do wonder how much of it is down to the dynamics/experience of his staff around him, and how much down to himself?

[DingleBaiter]

OK I'll bite:

......

9 He ran Bolton with less money than we had. I don't follow this point. I think you just wanted to get to 9!

I simply don't believe this to be the case in simple financial terms, based on perceptions & other factors but in the absence of cold hard facts. I'm open to being proved wrong of course, but this is my stance on this.

Taking their tenures like-for-like, compare Hughes's Rovers to Sam's Bolton. Consider the following....

1. Transfer outlays

2. Transfer recoups

3. Contracts-total cost of outlays, and for how long.

4. Agents fees

5. Backroom staff

6. Loan costs

7. Manager's contract

8. League position

9. TV Money

10. Cup prize money

Taking the factors above to one figure over each manager's full duration (given Sam was in spot for longer), or even pro-rata, I'd still be willing to back SA costing more than Hughes. I believe the 'shoestring' concept is at best a misunderstanding, at worst misdirection, but willing to be proven wrong......

[philipl]

Having read the last set of exchanges, I have to say the anti-BFS arguments are rather weak.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Dingle Baiter,

Thank you for a well balanced argument against Mr. Allerdyce. A lot of it I agree with.

But come Monday morning I fear we maybe in deeper do-do than we presenly are. If the board do decide to end the Ince reign at Ewood we need someone available immediately.

We have noone at the club who would you trust to be a caretaker manager, with the possible exception of Tugay, so unfortunately the club would I suspect need to employ an out of work manager.

With funds limited I would also suspect that the club would not wish to poach a manager from another club as the question of compenstation, not just for the manager but probably his back room staff as well, would probably drain all the available transfer kitty.

As for David Moyes, he is at present unique in the fact he has the record of played Ince's Rovers twice and LOST twice, hardly a great endorsement. He would be a good choice for Rovers but having just signed a new contract the cost would be far too high.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/columnists/i...15875-20931724/

[MCMC1875]

Apparently Sam was in Northcote Manor yesterday!

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Apparently Sam was in Northcote Manor yesterday!

Let me guess....someone who has a friend who has a friend who works there so him?

[MCMC1875]

In the absence of Mr Parkes (who is otherwise engaged at the seaside), Beamo and Gerald Jackson could do caretaker roles whilst Sam assembles his back room entourage!