[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[tony gale's mic]

Balls to that, I put forward an argument, but you just quote scoring statistics at me. I'm aware Benni scored more last season, I don't think that makes him the better player automatically, and I don't think what they both did three years ago and longer counts either.

I know who Sam would rather have in his team. I know who every Premier League manager would have his team. I know who virtually every Premier League fan would rather have in their team. Why don't you set up a poll on a football site that wouldn't have any bias and bring the results back?

You never answered why other clubs aren't taking Benni from us either - they could if they want, quite easily in fact. We got an inflated fee for Roque because City are mugs, but clubs like Spurs and Villa would have been there if the fee was reasonable. Why aren't they queuing up for Benni?

I did partly answer that but there's two main reasons for that

1. RSC is younger, so IF he reproduces the form of one season of his career from now on (rather than of the previous five or six) then they'll get more years out of him..this I already said in my previous post if you'd actually bothered reading;

and

2. RSCs most recent big season was one season more recent than Benni's most recent big season thus making it stick out more in the memory.

Neither of that makes the possibility of RSC having a great season this season any greater. And of course a striker's overall record over his career is relevant as a predictor of whether he'll be in the goals this season...to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

[LeChuck]

If you insist on using statistics (well, Wiki-statistics, can't be bothered going elsewhere), here is how their Rovers careers compare:

Benni: 36 in 95 (0.38 goals per game)

Roque: 23 in 57 (0.40 goals per game)

Considering Benni's includes a fair number of penalties, wouldn't you say that statistics show that Roque carries the bigger goal threat?

You can find statistics that will prove pretty much anything you want to say, but like I said...funny that no-one was saying Benni was the better of the two when they were both Rovers players, isn't it?

I'm going to set up a poll on another football site I post on, I won't hint at which I believe is the better, it will be a plain question. I'll post back the results (I'm aware that this could backfire!).

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

You can find statistics that will prove pretty much anything you want to say, but like I said...funny that no-one was saying Benni was the better of the two when they were both Rovers players, isn't it?

I did actually but it was at the start of the Ince tenure and I have no idea which thread it was in so I can't "do a Theno".

I do remember stressing that it is only when Benni is truly fired up and on top of his game though. Otherwise, Cruz is better.

[jim mk2]

Benni has been a much better player than RSC throughout his career. Anyone who argues otherwise is plain wrong.

Sorry, but you are not right here.

McCarthy may have the better goalscoring record and fitness record but he is not a better footballer than Santa Cruz.

Santa Cruz's work-rate, pace, touch on the ball, movement about the pitch, ability to play with his back to goal, heading prowess and versatility in that he can play in attack or defence are all superior to that of McCarthy.

McCarthy is good but Santa Cruz is a class act.

[tony gale's mic]

If you insist on using statistics (well, Wiki-statistics, can't be bothered going elsewhere), here is how their Rovers careers compare:

Benni: 36 in 95 (0.38 goals per game)

Roque: 23 in 57 (0.40 goals per game)

Considering Benni's includes a fair number of penalties, wouldn't you say that statistics show that Roque carries the bigger goal threat?

You can find statistics that will prove pretty much anything you want to say, but like I said...funny that no-one was saying Benni was the better of the two when they were both Rovers players, isn't it?

I'm going to set up a poll on another football site I post on, I won't hint at which I believe is the better, it will be a plain question. I'll post back the results (I'm aware that this could backfire!).

No because both had one excellent season then went off the boil...I'm sure had RSC stayed an extra season at Rovers his stats would have come down even more. McCarthy has far more sub appearances than Roque but most importantly of all just using their Rovers careers is a load of rubbish. Just because you might only have knowledge on English football it doesn't mean other leagues don't exist or aren't relevant. I'm sure if their careers in England had been Benni being a regular goalscorer and RSC being a frustrating goalshy striker then this wouldn't even be up for debate as Benni's reputation here would be far greater.

Setting up a poll on another football site proves very little - the factors of RSC's best season being more recent and City having just bought RSC for £17m therefore enhancing his reputation are bound to influence things.

[S15]

If you insist on using statistics (well, Wiki-statistics, can't be bothered going elsewhere), here is how their Rovers careers compare:

Benni: 36 in 95 (0.38 goals per game)

Roque: 23 in 57 (0.40 goals per game)

Considering Benni's includes a fair number of penalties, wouldn't you say that statistics show that Roque carries the bigger goal threat?

You can find statistics that will prove pretty much anything you want to say, but like I said...funny that no-one was saying Benni was the better of the two when they were both Rovers players, isn't it?

I'm going to set up a poll on another football site I post on, I won't hint at which I believe is the better, it will be a plain question. I'll post back the results (I'm aware that this could backfire!).

All I can say is... BOOM!!!

How ironic, the only form of counter argument has backfired drastically.

[tony gale's mic]

Sorry, but you are not right here.

McCarthy may have the better goalscoring record and fitness record but he is not a better footballer than Santa Cruz.

Santa Cruz's work-rate, pace, touch on the ball, movement about the pitch, ability to play with his back to goal, heading prowess and versatility in that he can play in attack or defence are all superior to that of McCarthy.

McCarthy is good but Santa Cruz is a class act.

Qualities he's shown in one season. If he was that good he would have scored more in the games he played for us (he started in almost half our games and only scored 4 goals) and would have scored more during his eight years at Bayern. You can't lay not scoring more than 5 league goals in a season for eight seasons in the Bundesliga as just being about fitness.

A striker's job is to put the ball in the net and this is by far the best way to judge him. The only exception to this is when a player is a Rooney/Beardsley/Cantona type "forward", where their role is a little different. RSC and Benni might have different styles but their role in the team is almost entirely as a goalscorer and so goals are the only logical way by which to measure their successes and abilities in these roles.

IF Santa Cruz has a great season this season, I might be forced to review this opinion though. But one swallow does not make a summer.

All I can say is... BOOM!!!

How ironic, the only form of counter argument has backfired drastically.

Judging by your most recent posts, I doubt you're even capable of adding much more.

[jim mk2]

You said that "Benni has been a much better player than RSC throughout his career".

My argument as I stated is that Santa Cruz is a much better all-round footballer (player).

Scoring goals is not the only criterion of a good striker / footballer. Decades ago the best goalscorer in England by a mile was a certain B Clough yet he won only a handful of caps because there were better players than him.

If both McCarthy and Santa Cruz were fit and on form and it came to a choice between the two, I think there's no doubt Santa Cruz would get the nod every time.

Santa Cruz is one of the best players I've seen in 50-years plus watching Rovers. McCarthy doesn't come in the top 20.

[S15]

[imy9]

All I can say is... BOOM!!!

How ironic, the only form of counter argument has backfired drastically.

Ironic?

RSC-

BAYERN: 155 games 31 goals (EIGHT years in a top league)

ROVERS:57 games 23 apps (2 years in PL)

TOTAL European career 186 games 56 goals

INTERNATIONAL 61 games 20 goals

Benni-

AJAX- 35 games 20 goals

CELTA- 66 games 10 goals

PORTO- 80 games 45 games

ROVERS- 92 games 35 goals

TOTAL European career 273 games 110 goals

INTERNATIONAL: 76 games 36 goals

What was the word you used.... oh yeah thats right boom!

RSC when fit has shown glimpses of being a top striker but Benni has shown throughout his career that he can and does score goals, if I recall correctly Sunderland tabled a £9 million bid at the start of pre season (last year) for Benni but we rejected it, I am willing to wager £50 that Benni playing the same number of games as RSC will score and/or assist in more goals than RSC. If Man City were not involved nobody in their right mind was going to bid over £10 million for RSC.

[Big Fat Sam]

Didn't RSC mainly play with an injury last year surely that would effect his form. I think its unfair to compare them they both have more in their locker than they've shown throughout there careers. On their day they are both top players and have done well for our club.

I just hope that now Sam has had some time with Benni he can get him firing again.

Anyway its pretty obvious to all that Benni is the superior, why because he's a ROVER!!!!

[American]

You never answered why other clubs aren't taking Benni from us either - they could if they want, quite easily in fact. We got an inflated fee for Roque because City are mugs, but clubs like Spurs and Villa would have been there if the fee was reasonable. Why aren't they queuing up for Benni?

Maybe because he didn't go whining to the press to make any bids public?

Santa Cruz has more natural talent, but McCarthy has made more of what talent he has while RSC has, with the exception of one season, been unable to live up to his potential.

[tony gale's mic]

You said that "Benni has been a much better player than RSC throughout his career".

My argument as I stated is that Santa Cruz is a much better all-round footballer (player).

Scoring goals is not the only criterion of a good striker / footballer. Decades ago the best goalscorer in England by a mile was a certain B Clough yet he won only a handful of caps because there were better players than him.

If both McCarthy and Santa Cruz were fit and on form and it came to a choice between the two, I think there's no doubt Santa Cruz would get the nod every time.

Santa Cruz is one of the best players I've seen in 50-years plus watching Rovers. McCarthy doesn't come in the top 20.

Is that the same B Clough who was scoring for fun in the lower leagues but never got a chance at the top level? I daresay that had more to do with him not being selected for England and had he scored at those levels in the old first division, he would've got many, many more caps. Granted I wasn't around at the time but using someone who hadnt been scoring goals at the top level is a pretty weak argument.

Scoring goals IS by far the most important criterion for a striker.

[jim mk2]

Granted I wasn't around at the time but using someone who hadnt been scoring goals at the top level is a pretty weak argument.

Scoring goals IS by far the most important criterion for a striker.

England have often picked players from lower divisions, particularly in the years before the abolition of the maximum wage when clubs and teams were more equal but that's by the by.

If you want another example look at Michael Owen: fantastic goalscoring record but now he's stopped scoring goals he doesn't get a game for England because his all-round game is poor.

To recap, you stated that McCarthy is a far better player than Santa Cruz but seek to justify this only by quoting his goalscoring record.

Santa Cruz's goalscoring record is not dissimilar and I contend that he is a much better all-round footballer.

Your statement is wrong. McCarthy is not a better player than Santa Cruz.

[LeChuck]

Ironic?

...

stats stats stats

...

boom!

...

Why are you quoting their whole careers? I don't think anyone is doubting that Benni has had a better career, but RIGHT NOW in the PRESENT, Roque is the better player.

My stats were taken when they were playing in the same league, at the same with, with the same supply, with the same opposition. Don't you think that provides a better insight?

Maybe because he didn't go whining to the press to make any bids public?

The Chelsea/Mourinho saga has slipped out of your mind then? He kicked up just as much as a fuss as Roque, but Chelsea didn't come with the silly money like City did. If a 'big' club had been anywhere near Benni since, you can guarantee he would have done it again.

Setting up a poll on another football site proves very little - the factors of RSC's best season being more recent and City having just bought RSC for £17m therefore enhancing his reputation are bound to influence things.

Well...I did it anyway, and it's 15-5 to Roque at the moment.

Regarding 'influence' - yes, that may be a factor, but is relatively nothing when you consider the natural bias here of comparing a current Rover to someone who has just departed in not the best of circumstances, and is therefore universally disliked.

[imy9]

Why are you quoting their whole careers? I don't think anyone is doubting that Benni has had a better career, but RIGHT NOW in the PRESENT, Roque is the better player.

My stats were taken when they were playing in the same league, at the same with, with the same supply, with the same opposition. Don't you think that provides a better insight?

The Chelsea/Mourinho saga has slipped out of your mind then? He kicked up just as much as a fuss as Roque, but Chelsea didn't come with the silly money like City did. If a 'big' club had been anywhere near Benni since, you can guarantee he would have done it again.

Well...I did it anyway, and it's 15-5 to Roque at the moment.

Regarding 'influence' - yes, that may be a factor, but is relatively nothing when you consider the natural bias here of comparing a current Rover to someone who has just departed in not the best of circumstances, and is therefore universally disliked.

This is imperative, this is a sign of how good the players are. RSC has ONE good season out of TEN, where was the quality in the previous 8 and subsequent one after?

My stats give a far greater insight as you can see their entire careers and can make a fair judgement, e.g. there is no point looking at Marcus Stewarts ONE season in the PL when he hit 19 PL goals and saying "look what a world class player he is" is there?

Right here and now, RSC scored 4 goals last year in 20 games, Benni 10 in 26 games, which is the better current player at scoring goals, that is how I judge strikers (that and the time they spend on the pitch )

England have often picked players from lower divisions, particularly in the years before the abolition of the maximum wage when clubs and teams were more equal but that's by the by.

If you want another example look at Michael Owen: fantastic goalscoring record but now he's stopped scoring goals he doesn't get a game for England because his all-round game is poor.

To recap, you stated that McCarthy is a far better player than Santa Cruz but seek to justify this only by quoting his goalscoring record.

Santa Cruz's goalscoring record is not dissimilar and I contend that he is a much better all-round footballer.

Your statement is wrong. McCarthy is not a better player than Santa Cruz.

Your reading of stats obviously differs from mine

[S15]

So I'm trusting all you Benni fans would be calling for him to start ahead of Santa Cruz had he have stayed and been fit for the new season?

Just straight answers please, yes or no.

[imy9]

So I'm trusting all you Benni fans would be calling for him to start ahead of Santa Cruz had he have stayed and been fit for the new season?

Just straight answers please, yes or no.

Yes. Benni given a decent supply and fully fit will score goals- more than RSC of that I have no doubt at all.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on RSC's goal record overall- seems to be glossed over quite often by certain people

A question: How many people think (based on what he has achieved in his career so far- goal wise) RSC would score 15 league goals at Rovers?

The numbers do not back the guy up.

[modes98]

I've always been a Benni fan. The man scores goals and if he is in the team every week he stays in good shape.

But this is the Sam Allardyce thread not the Benni V Santa Cruz Thread.

[Kelbo]

I've always been a Benni fan. The man scores goals and if he is in the team every week he stays in good shape.

But this is the Sam Allardyce thread not the Benni V Santa Cruz Thread.

Agreed!!

[S15]

This is an internet discussion board, not the house of commons. If a thread drives off, who gives one? It's because people have become interested in an issue which has come up during the original discussion.

[thenodrog]

RSC and BennyM can't really be compared as they are totally different types of player. Both have exceptional talent and both have weaknesses too. RSC's abilities are probably better suited to our style of direct play.

[waynerovers]

If you insist on using statistics (well, Wiki-statistics, can't be bothered going elsewhere), here is how their Rovers careers compare:

Benni: 36 in 95 (0.38 goals per game)

Roque: 23 in 57 (0.40 goals per game)

Considering Benni's includes a fair number of penalties, wouldn't you say that statistics show that Roque carries the bigger goal threat?

You can find statistics that will prove pretty much anything you want to say, but like I said...funny that no-one was saying Benni was the better of the two when they were both Rovers players, isn't it?

I'm going to set up a poll on another football site I post on, I won't hint at which I believe is the better, it will be a plain question. I'll post back the results (I'm aware that this could backfire!).

wrong, as these stats dont include last years goals, which would give mccarthy a higher goals per game percentage

[waynerovers]

lets also not forget that alot of santa cruz's goals were supplied by bentley (playing the best season of his career) practically putting the ball on his head. Once bentley was taken away roque looked very average

[trueblue]

Back on topic please