[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[Tris]

Are you sure....Lets compare.

Dunn - Previously always injured - NOW FIT

Emerton - BIG injury - NOW FIT

Reid - As Dunn - NOW FIT

Grella - Always injured - NOW FIT

Yes we have Samba/ Nelsen & Robbo with minor knocks, thats part and parcel of football. All will be fit for Burnley @ home.

You make it sound as if some sort of miracle has been worked by Allardyce. All that's happened is that the passage of time has seen those players come back from injury!

Rovers have a great medical team and one of the best physios in the league, but that set up has nothing at all to do with BFS - they've all been here for ages.

I know you think he's the messiah, but you are beginning to blur fact and fiction if you think he's walked in and healed the afflicted.

[tcj_jones]

You make it sound as if some sort of miracle has been worked by Allardyce. All that's happened is that the passage of time has seen those players come back from injury!

Rovers have a great medical team and one of the best physios in the league, but that set up has nothing at all to do with BFS - they've all been here for ages.

I know you think he's the messiah, but you are beginning to blur fact and fiction if you think he's walked in and healed the afflicted.

I dunno Tris, Ince, knowing his job was on the line, rushed Dunn back into the first team before he was ready and subsequently injured him for a further four months. Sam has used him well and sparingly. He's also eased the likes of Reid and Emerton back in. Ten games into the season and no significant injuries. Fingers crossed it stays that way a while longer.

In terms of personnel, funnily enough, those bought on the cheap - Jacobsen, Chimbonda, N'Zonzi and Di Santo, alongside the introduction of Hoilett and last season's acquisition, Givet - have all impressed, whereas the big money signing, Kalinic hasn't.

Saying that, his decision to let Warnock, one of our top players, go in order to finance a deal to bring Salgado in, was a huge mistake.

[dulwich]

I gave you Dunn, but we've only seen that over time. Emerton and Reid are coming back from long term injuries, and I dare say that they'd have been fit if you or I were manager. And Grella? Is he fit? Out of 9 matches this season, he's made 4 starts and 1 substitute appearance. Granted, for the last match he was suspended, but that doesn't hide the fact that he's started 50% of games this season. Perhaps before we declare him fit, we should see how he fares over a period of time, like we have with Dunn. Some of the injuries we've had/currently have (strains and tweaks) ARE part and parcel of football, but they're also the ones that can be avoided with proper training and preparation.

I'd like a manager who see's a game how I/we do. Results and performance. Not roll out a plethora of stats to convince us we've done enough. We may well have had "47 penetrations into the opposition area", how many of those were long throws, and "26 POMO (positions of maximum opportunity)", were they second balls? But how many goals did we score? Did we see the performance? Sometimes you can't hide behind stats...

[philipl]

RSC also said Ince played him when he wasn't fit as well.

I can see pros and cons on Sam but the fact is we are a PL side and that is almost all that matters so he delivered.

Ince by contrast failed in every conceivable way (and some that are scarcely credible as well) with the exception of the Robinson signing. Anybody who puts Ince into the against-Sam balance in their arguments has absolutely zero credibility so far as I am concerned- sorry.

With regards to the Everton game, we had the better of them marginally for 40 minutes then let in three terrible goals through comic book defending and fell apart. A bit like Arsenal where we were competitive for an hour then lost it.

Hopefully, we will manage 90 minutes in an away game some day soon!

[Hughesy]

Tris - im not saying he's a miracle worker. Im simply pointing out that his 'sports science' boys are not failing.

As for passage of time - the same passage of time that usually passes and our players break down time and time again??

As TCJ rightly pointed out - he doesnt rush players back, and he takes them off to keep them from getting niggles. Something wince couldnt do.

[dulwich]

As for passage of time - the same passage of time that usually passes and our players break down time and time again??

Exactly, which is perhaps why we shouldn't declare Grella fit, until he's been fit and playing consistently.

[Blue blood]

Sam deserves credit for getting both Dunn and Grella back fit, both have already played a longer sequence of games then I would've thought possible, and both definately improve the team, especially Dunn. (Although it'd be hard not to given our midfield.) Neither showed any indication of doing so at all last season, and Dunn wasn't fit for some of Hughes reign as well, I think, so clearly kudos to Sam on these two.

As for the others though I don't think Sam can be given masses of credit. Emerton was a very fit player, in fact this was his first major injury, so it's not too suprising that he's coming back, given his past record. As for Reid - I'll wait until he plays a few first team games before passing a verdict on his fitness. Too early to call that one imo.

Managers live and die by their big transfers, and as yet the jury is still out on Sam's big transfers from this season. Givet and Diouf last season were just what was needed and at good prices, and can only be classed as resounding successes. Sam's also got the smaller transfers rigth this season too - N'Zonzi looks promising, Jacobsen is a steal of a free transfer, Chimbonda looks value for 1.5 million as a full back.

But as I said, the big transfers make or break managers, and Salgado and Kalinic don't look to be that successful. Fortunately with both there's time to turn it round, but at the moment neither look like making the impact they should. I'd much rather have Warnock then Salgado.

Hodgeson had the albatross of Davies marring his reign, Ince had Grella and Carlos who failed to make the impact they had. Contrast this with our more successful managers like Souness and Hughes they got their big signings right. (Admittedly Souness botched with Grabbi during his successful period, but he quickly rectified it with Cole. When he botched the big signings - like Ferguson that's when it started going down hill for him.) In the same way as Souness and Hodgeson, a lot I think will depend on whether one of these two key signings does come good, especially Kalinic given di santo's on loan and the other two strikers are ageing and inconsistent. If Kalinic works out Sam will be a big success with rovers.

[gumboots]

I gave you Dunn, but we've only seen that over time. Emerton and Reid are coming back from long term injuries, and I dare say that they'd have been fit if you or I were manager. And Grella? Is he fit? Out of 9 matches this season, he's made 4 starts and 1 substitute appearance. Granted, for the last match he was suspended, but that doesn't hide the fact that he's started 50% of games this season. Perhaps before we declare him fit, we should see how he fares over a period of time, like we have with Dunn. Some of the injuries we've had/currently have (strains and tweaks) ARE part and parcel of football, but they're also the ones that can be avoided with proper training and preparation.

You can't totally avoid injuries even with proper training and preparation. Samba's was a result of a tackle, kick, someone falling on him etc. It's not just about avoiding injury - it's about how quickly and how thoroughly you recover before you play again and that seems to me to be ok.

[joey_big_nose]

I dunno Tris, Ince, knowing his job was on the line, rushed Dunn back into the first team before he was ready and subsequently injured him for a further four months. Sam has used him well and sparingly. He's also eased the likes of Reid and Emerton back in. Ten games into the season and no significant injuries. Fingers crossed it stays that way a while longer.

In terms of personnel, funnily enough, those bought on the cheap - Jacobsen, Chimbonda, N'Zonzi and Di Santo, alongside the introduction of Hoilett and last season's acquisition, Givet - have all impressed, whereas the big money signing, Kalinic hasn't.

Saying that, his decision to let Warnock, one of our top players, go in order to finance a deal to bring Salgado in, was a huge mistake.

I agree with all of this, although it is a bit of a fallacy to say Warnock went to bring Salgado in. Most of the Warnock money was used to bridge the wage gap created by finishing further down the league last year (significantly reducing income) but not reducing the wage bill.

If we had kept Warnock we would of ended up with a ticking 5m bomb in our budget. Anyway Warnock wanted to leave so i am not sure we could do that much about it.

Getting in Salgado on the other hand seems utterly ridiculous. No clear position in the side, small, slow and unfit, I don't think we will see him until we have an injury crisis tbh.

But every manager can have a turkey, especially if he is free. What is important is that Kalinic comes through, and he looks very much in the balance at the moment.

[T4E]

Lot of Anti this and pro that been banded about. Why is the concept that people can question, be critical and support without being Anti- or pro- so difficult to grasp?

Couldnt agree more mate.

I am not anti/pro Allardyce in the same was I wasn't anti/pro Ince (honestly). These are just men, one of many that have an influence on our fate.

I am not anti-Andrews, nor am I pro-Dunn. I am anti-Andrews playing badly, and I am pro-Dunny playing as well as he has been so far this season. Nothing to do with the men himself, its performances and attitude that shape my opinions, nothing more.

I am anti-losing and pro-winning. I don't care how, it doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to work. I am anti-losing 6-2 to anyone in this league (Arsenal being a great side is no excuse), and I would be very VERY pro beating the Dingles. Fingers crossed.

[Miker]

Do we actually know how much Salgado is being paid? I agree we should judge Sam by his signings, especially the big money ones, so I think we should concentrate that on Kalinic working out. Salgado is a bit of a mystery. I have a feeling he was brought in for various reasons other than to be part of the first team. Dressing room presence, giving the team a winning mentality, media attention and potential t-shirt sales. It might turn out to be a complete flop, but in retrospect it was a clever move from Sam to bring Salgado in, especially if he can perform in the league.

Kalinic was awful against Sunderland, which is why I think Sam doesn't want to rush him. I do expect him to start playing games on a regular basis by Jan and to score goals as well.

[Exiled_Rover]

RSC also said Ince played him when he wasn't fit as well.

I can see pros and cons on Sam but the fact is we are a PL side and that is almost all that matters so he delivered.

Ince by contrast failed in every conceivable way (and some that are scarcely credible as well) with the exception of the Robinson signing. Anybody who puts Ince into the against-Sam balance in their arguments has absolutely zero credibility so far as I am concerned- sorry.

With regards to the Everton game, we had the better of them marginally for 40 minutes then let in three terrible goals through comic book defending and fell apart. A bit like Arsenal where we were competitive for an hour then lost it.

Hopefully, we will manage 90 minutes in an away game some day soon!

Santa Cruz can ###### off.

[Stuart]

Santa Cruz can ###### off.

And he did.

[OscarRaven]

Do we actually know how much Salgado is being paid?

Enough for John Williams to veto his move until publically challanged by his manager in the media!

[LDRover]

I think the failure to sell Andrews alone deems Allardyce's transfer market dealings unsuccessful.

A massive blunder that one.

[Exiled in Toronto]

I think the failure to sell Andrews alone deems Allardyce's transfer market dealings unsuccessful.

A massive blunder that one.

Agreed. He's had 2 windows to strengthen midfield and hasn't. No use blaming Andrews, he's doing his best.

Andrews and N'zonzi against Arsenal was a joke; I doubt there are many worse cent mids pairings in the Championship. Fabregas will never have it so good again (until they come to Ewood)

[Hughesy]

Agreed. He's had 2 windows to strengthen midfield and hasn't.

Window 1 - Diouf

Window 2 - NZonzi

Why is that midfield not stronger?

The offer for Andrews was not good enough - we told them to come back with more and they didnt!

His hands were tied with the likes of Dunn, Grella, Reid & Emerton as nobody knew when/ if they would be fit.

Next summer will probably see a bigger change. Andrews will no doubt be up for review, and Reid/ Pedersen only have 8 months left on thier contracts!

We no longer have Uncle Jack so it takes time now, we cant rebuild rome in a day!!

[waggy]

i thought reid was injured,and nelsen should not be allowed to play for new zealand this week as he missed the arse game

[dulwich]

We no longer have Uncle Jack so it takes time now, we cant rebuild rome in a day!!

But this is the point I've been trying to make. We can't re-build Rome in a day, but we have to see improvement. And at the present time I don't see an improvement from the second half of last season, after "window 1", to the first 9 games of this season, after "window 2". This is of course after having almost a year in the job, and his own pre-season.

Hence, why I say I think he's talking a better game than he's delivering.

And before you mention it, yes there was improvement between the first half of last season and the second half.

[Eddie]

He's definitely talking a better game, but he still has time to turn it around. The team SHOULD be better this year. There are some worrying signs that we may be returning to a one-half team and are making basic defensive errors. This must be fixed. I don't think we'll go down, so Allardyce has all season to prove his worth and we probably can't afford to get rid of him anyway, but at the moment he's done nothing to convince me that we should ever renew his contract.

[waggy]

Do we actually know how much Salgado is being paid? I agree we should judge Sam by his signings, especially the big money ones, so I think we should concentrate that on Kalinic working out. Salgado is a bit of a mystery. I have a feeling he was brought in for various reasons other than to be part of the first team. Dressing room presence, giving the team a winning mentality, media attention and potential t-shirt sales. It might turn out to be a complete flop, but in retrospect it was a clever move from Sam to bring Salgado in, especially if he can perform in the league.

Kalinic was awful against Sunderland, which is why I think Sam doesn't want to rush him. I do expect him to start playing games on a regular basis by Jan and to score goals as well.

salgado on 40k a week,you call that a clever move,no left back on the books i call that negligant

[Eddie]

We don't know how much he is on, but given that we couldn't afford the deal originally and that it took a bit of pushing on the part of Allardyce one has to assume that it is a reasonably large packet that he is picking up.

[waggy]

i suggest we ask nicko,he had a few lines in the people saying samba was unhappy with the amount the spanish tugay was getting

[joey_big_nose]

i suggest we ask nicko,he had a few lines in the people saying samba was unhappy with the amount the spanish tugay was getting

I find it hard to believe Salgado would be on 40k a week. 30 would seem more plausible as that would be rough, I think, what the likes of Nelsen and Givet will be on. Someone drop Nicko a PM.

[John]

The team SHOULD be better this year.

How do you work that one out??

In recent times, we have sold our quality players, namely Bentley/Cruz/Warnock, and are only spending a pittance (in PL terms) to replace them. If you look at it from an outsider perspective the business model is purely to stay in the league first then anything else is a bonus - JW pretty much said the same recently.