[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[LeChuck]

The team SHOULD be better this year.

I'm interested to know how you think a manager should improve a team despite having a £15 million gap between incomings and outgoings. 'Better' is just relative to the strength of the league as well, and the teams around us are able to spend on players without the need for selling.

No doubt you'll give me an answer to that, but the reality is that it's almost impossible. It's certainly not sustainable for more than a season or two.

[dulwich]

How do you work that one out??

In recent times, we have sold our quality players, namely Bentley/Cruz/Warnock, and are only spending a pittance (in PL terms) to replace them. If you look at it from an outsider perspective the business model is purely to stay in the league first then anything else is a bonus - JW pretty much said the same recently.

I don't really see how that can be much of an argument as we only paid a pittance to get them in in the first place.

[John]

I don't really see how that can be much of an argument as we only paid a pittance to get them in in the first place.

Something to do with having a top quality manager in Mark Hughes. His judgement was impeccable - after he left Sparky said success on a small budget was not sustainable and its impossible to keep pulling rabbits out of a hat (as he termed it). You have to take that into an account and as our Chairman said recently, its all about staying in the league.

[Amo]

I think the failure to sell Andrews alone deems Allardyce's transfer market dealings unsuccessful.

A massive blunder that one.

No assurances over Dunn/Reid/Grella's fitness, and a board who'll take most of the proceeds and spit out the change. You can't blame Sam too much for calling Fulham's bluff and asking for more.

[patrickvalery]

Something to do with having a top quality manager in Mark Hughes. His judgement was impeccable - after he left Sparky said success on a small budget was not sustainable and its impossible to keep pulling rabbits out of a hat (as he termed it). You have to take that into an account and as our Chairman said recently, its all about staying in the league.

You are completely correct John. But don't those facts feel worse every time you think about them?

I think Sam is doing quite a good job. He'd be first to admit that we could and should be higher in the league at this stage. But i'm perfectly confident we'll stay up relatively comfortably.

However, this notion that survival is our only objective is SO disheartening. Don't get me wrong, i'll follow Rovers until the day i die. But things are getting to the stage where football is just not exciting. The weeks we play one of the ever increasing big sides, i seem to have less and less hope of getting a result. If we play on a Saturday against one of these sides i inevitably spend the rest of the weekend depressed at yet another four goal drubbing.

The fact is even if we got a wealthy backer we'd still only have the resources to tread water. Without one of these super rich benefactors we stand little to no hope of cracking the top 7-8 again. Most of my friends support Southampton and moan about the crap level they are playing at. Well they have visions of the PL as it was the year they went down. The fact is its got harder and continues to get harder year on year. In many ways i'm envious of the fact they can go to St Mary's and not predict the result against 99% of sides in that division. The PL has become that predictable that it seems we now don't even attempt to take points off anyone 6th or above. As a Rovers fan the recent years have instilled a valid sense of hope. We could go to top sides and take points off them once in a while. Now it seems we don't even have that. For me this isn't really Allardyce's fault. But its a reflection of the gulf in riches between the top and bottom sides. Its a bloody sad state of affairs.

[47er]

He's definitely talking a better game, but he still has time to turn it around. The team SHOULD be better this year. There are some worrying signs that we may be returning to a one-half team and are making basic defensive errors. This must be fixed. I don't think we'll go down, so Allardyce has all season to prove his worth and we probably can't afford to get rid of him anyway, but at the moment he's done nothing to convince me that we should ever renew his contract.

There is nothing he could do to convince you to "ever renew his contract" and its hypocritical of you to pretend that he ever could.You were against his appointment from the very beginning and you've put the boot in ever since.You've even said you'd prefer Ince!

[Hughesy]

i thought reid was injured,and nelsen should not be allowed to play for new zealand this week as he missed the arse game

Well Nelsen is playing for NZ. And Reid was simply pulled out because we decided it was too early.

[Eddie]

I'm interested to know how you think a manager should improve a team despite having a £15 million gap between incomings and outgoings. 'Better' is just relative to the strength of the league as well, and the teams around us are able to spend on players without the need for selling.

No doubt you'll give me an answer to that, but the reality is that it's almost impossible. It's certainly not sustainable for more than a season or two.

No, I can give you a simple answer to it. We sold Santa Cruz for 17-18 million (basically the difference in our spending) and he was a non-entity last season. Whether or not he would have returned to form this season we'll never know, but the fact is that he played no part in the side last year. On top of that Allardyce can look at the emergence of Hoillet (as well as one or two others who look like they could play a very small part in the season). I think the squad does actually look better, my only question would be why three right backs and no left back? If he could change Salgado for a left back then I would be very happy with almost everything he did in the summer, although I would have loved to have seen a talented midfielder brought in if the money wasn't there then it wasn't there.

There is nothing he could do to convince you to "ever renew his contract" and its hypocritical of you to pretend that he ever could.You were against his appointment from the very beginning and you've put the boot in ever since.You've even said you'd prefer Ince!

That's not at all true. I had serious doubts about Souness when he took charge, but in the end I was one of his biggest supporters to the extent that I was actually unhappy when he walked away, despite us being in a terrible position at the time.

[47er]

No, I can give you a simple answer to it. We sold Santa Cruz for 17-18 million (basically the difference in our spending) and he was a non-entity last season. Whether or not he would have returned to form this season we'll never know, but the fact is that he played no part in the side last year. On top of that Allardyce can look at the emergence of Hoillet (as well as one or two others who look like they could play a very small part in the season). I think the squad does actually look better, my only question would be why three right backs and no left back? If he could change Salgado for a left back then I would be very happy with almost everything he did in the summer, although I would have loved to have seen a talented midfielder brought in if the money wasn't there then it wasn't there.

That's not at all true. I had serious doubts about Souness when he took charge, but in the end I was one of his biggest supporters to the extent that I was actually unhappy when he walked away, despite us being in a terrible position at the time.

Well you might think that makes you sound flexible, to me you sound more barmy than ever! Anyone who was unhappy when Souness left us has rocks in their head. Personally I was doing cartwheels in the street. I don't know what this has to do with the topic by the way. Are you denying you said you'd prefer Ince to Allardyce?

[Eddie]

Not at all, I have to admit that after the Everton game that was how I felt and at the moment I'm struggling to recognise any serious differences between the two regimes.

As for supporting Souness making me barmy: what it taught me was that managers had to earn their respect and that they never got to keep it simply because they had done good things in the past. There are right managers at right times. Souness was the perfect man for the job at the time that he was appointed and it was about the right time when he left and made way for the perfect man in Hughes. Allardyce has not been our perfect man so far, maybe if he turns this season around this can all fall under the rebuilding period like it did under Hughes, but at the moment I would say this is close to the finish product when it comes to the Allardyce model. Time may well prove me wrong, but our football has been pretty clueless and dire for a while now, that needs to change.

[Silencio]

Not at all, I have to admit that after the Everton game that was how I felt and at the moment I'm struggling to recognise any serious differences between the two regimes.

As for supporting Souness making me barmy: what it taught me was that managers had to earn their respect and that they never got to keep it simply because they had done good things in the past. There are right managers at right times. Souness was the perfect man for the job at the time that he was appointed and it was about the right time when he left and made way for the perfect man in Hughes. Allardyce has not been our perfect man so far, maybe if he turns this season around this can all fall under the rebuilding period like it did under Hughes, but at the moment I would say this is close to the finish product when it comes to the Allardyce model. Time may well prove me wrong, but our football has been pretty clueless and dire for a while now, that needs to change.

The problem for you Eddie is that you have zero credibility since you said you would "honestly take Ince back in a shot" ahead of Allardyce.

[Miker]

But this is the point I've been trying to make. We can't re-build Rome in a day, but we have to see improvement. And at the present time I don't see an improvement from the second half of last season, after "window 1", to the first 9 games of this season, after "window 2". This is of course after having almost a year in the job, and his own pre-season.

Hence, why I say I think he's talking a better game than he's delivering.

And before you mention it, yes there was improvement between the first half of last season and the second half.

I'd like to make a point that last season there was a clear gulf between the top 5 or 6 and the rest of the teams. Pretty much every other team was in trouble and fighting to escape relegation. This season I don't think it's going to be like that because you now have Man City and Spurs finally competing at full strength, while Everton and Villa are still in the mix. Add to that Stoke and Sunderland who have built solid teams and spent a lot of money on quality players. No doubt we're going to see a much bigger gap between the top 10 and bottom 10 and that's going to mean that improvement will be fairly hard. Mainly because we're still counting our losses from last season, so it will take at least another one to see clear improvement. The sort of form we had under Sam last season was enough to put us in the top 10, which is what we should be aiming for, so if Sam can replicate that form from last season I would be quite happy and I think most fans should be too.

[Paul]

Lot of Anti this and pro that been banded about. Why is the concept that people can question, be critical and support without being Anti- or pro- so difficult to grasp?

Exactly right. I am neither pro nor anti Ince or Allardyce. As personalities I don't like either of them, neiither give me any confidence. Compare these two with the consumate professionalism of Mark Hughes and you may see why I feel this.

However there were times when I defended Ince. Why? I objected to the constant vilification of him as an individual, it was both ridiculous and unacceptable. I would say the same applies to Keith Andrews, a player roundly criticised by many on here match after match, I find the tone objectionable and I'm more likely to suuport him as a consequence. You will not find me abusing any of these people in the way so many find acceptable (even our greatest living fan resorts to describing players as dogsh!t), I simply put forward the reasons I'm unhappy, this does of course make me a fully paid up member of the whingeing suicide squad in some people's eyes.

[RovertheHill]

Allardyce has not been our perfect man so far

I'd say he WAS the perfect man to get us out of the mess Ince left us in and to avoid relegation. The jury is out as to whether he can do a rebuilding job. I doubt he will get the time here he had to do it at Bolton - especially as he is losing a section of the fans already.

[47er]

Not at all, I have to admit that after the Everton game that was how I felt and at the moment I'm struggling to recognise any serious differences between the two regimes.

As for supporting Souness making me barmy: what it taught me was that managers had to earn their respect and that they never got to keep it simply because they had done good things in the past. There are right managers at right times. Souness was the perfect man for the job at the time that he was appointed and it was about the right time when he left and made way for the perfect man in Hughes. Allardyce has not been our perfect man so far, maybe if he turns this season around this can all fall under the rebuilding period like it did under Hughes, but at the moment I would say this is close to the finish product when it comes to the Allardyce model. Time may well prove me wrong, but our football has been pretty clueless and dire for a while now, that needs to change.

This is pure sophistry, you hate Sam's guts but you prtend to be objective. Lots of things to be pleased about but you never mention any of them.

[Gav]

I think next weeks game could be make or break for Allardyce even at this early stage in his Ewood career. You have to believe he’ll play 4-5-1, like he’s done all season so far, and that in itself has many fans up in arms before we’ve even kicked a ball.

That shower are coming to play 4-4-2, the formation we’d like to see, and if it comes off I think Sam could be in for a rough couple of weeks.

[Hughesy]

I think next weeks game could be make or break for Allardyce even at this early stage in his Ewood career. You have to believe he’ll play 4-5-1, like he’s done all season so far, and that in itself has many fans up in arms before we’ve even kicked a ball.

That shower are coming to play 4-4-2, the formation we’d like to see, and if it comes off I think Sam could be in for a rough couple of weeks.

Thats the problem though isnt it, our fans can be so niave!! Dunn is more or less playing as 2nd striker, yet our fans are too stupid to realise.

We play more like a 4-4-1-1 that 4-5-1. We also have attacking wingers in Diouf & Pedersen/ Emerton.

[dulwich]

Thats the problem though isnt it, our fans can be so niave!! Dunn is more or less playing as 2nd striker, yet our fans are too stupid to realise.

We play more like a 4-4-1-1 that 4-5-1. We also have attacking wingers in Diouf & Pedersen/ Emerton.

Seriously??

[Hughesy]

Seriously??

Yes, people on this board might realise but you hear alot at ewood saying 'why are we only playing 1 upfront, do we not want to score etc", well we are not, Dunny is up there, just slightly behind the target man.

[dulwich]

No, I understood your point. But I'm not sure calling our supporters stupid was the correct way of getting it across.

[LeChuck]

You have to believe he’ll play 4-5-1, like he’s done all season so far, and that in itself has many fans up in arms before we’ve even kicked a ball.

Only the ones who don't really understand football tactics.

Here's a Guardian article talking about 4-4-2s and 4-5-1s. There's a quote from it that sums it up perfectly:

"But let's get this clear, for this is one of the prime fallacies in discussions of tactics: 4-4-2 is neither more nor less attacking than 4-1-2-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-2-1 or any of the other variants of 4-5-1. Formations are neutral; it is their application that gives them positive or negative qualities."

Bar the West Ham game, our application of our formation has been attacking. Dunn is basically a second striker and the wide players are playing far up the field. The full backs aren't restricted from attacking either.

In fact, I like that quote so much it's going in my signature, in vain hope that it will further repetition.

[Hughesy]

No, I understood your point. But I'm not sure calling our supporters stupid was the correct way of getting it across.

Only the ones who don't really understand football tactics.

Be as picky as you want dull - see Lechucks post then for the more 'politically right' way of saying it.

[dulwich]

Be as picky as you want dull - see Lechucks post then for the more 'politically right' way of saying it.

So, in effect, those that disagree with you are "stupid".

While I agree with LeChuck about the fluidity of positions on the pitch, not tactics I may add, I see Dunn as being a supportive midfielder rather than a second striker. Dunn is as much a second striker as much as Rooney is a supportive midfielder. There is a difference in the two, do you see it?

Plato

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.

[Tris]

Only the ones who don't really understand football tactics.

Here's a Guardian article talking about 4-4-2s and 4-5-1s. There's a quote from it that sums it up perfectly:

"But let's get this clear, for this is one of the prime fallacies in discussions of tactics: 4-4-2 is neither more nor less attacking than 4-1-2-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-2-1 or any of the other variants of 4-5-1. Formations are neutral; it is their application that gives them positive or negative qualities."

He's not even a proper journalist - he's a blogger who sneaks an article into the paper once every couple of months.

Jonathan Wilson is guardian.co.uk's east European football correspondent.

I don't think he has any higher claim to Gav in the understanding of football tactics.

"Hi, my name's Le Chuck, I prove my tactical knowledge by quoting the guardian website's east European football blogger in my signature"

[joey_big_nose]

I think next weeks game could be make or break for Allardyce even at this early stage in his Ewood career. You have to believe he'll play 4-5-1, like he's done all season so far, and that in itself has many fans up in arms before we've even kicked a ball.

That shower are coming to play 4-4-2, the formation we'd like to see, and if it comes off I think Sam could be in for a rough couple of weeks.

I personally have no problem with 4231, it suits our players much better than 442. We don't have two firing stirkers, NZonzi and Grella like to hold, Dunn has been brilliant in the free role (I personally have no doubt that he would suffer greatly in a 442 as he would be shackeld down and his lack of pace and fitness exposed), Diouf likes to play further up than a standard wide role.

To be honest it is worth playing 4231 alone for the freedom it gives Dunn. But I feel it also gets alot more out of Diouf and Grella.

The only midfielders more suited to a standard 442 are Pedersen and, to a lesser extent, Emerton.

Far more imporant imo than 442 is getting Hoilett involved on a regular basis. We look a lot more threatening with himdown the right.

I would actually be quite concerned if we do move away from 4231 as I think we could cause ourselves problems.