[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[LeChuck]

"Hi, my name's Le Chuck, I prove my tactical knowledge by quoting the guardian website's east European football blogger in my signature"

It's not proving anything Tris. It's something I've thought for a long time, it's just worded far better than I could hope to do.

Given that a lot Premier League managers play 4-5-1, it's obviously not just Eastern European football bloggers that think it either.

4-4-2 could easily just be two defensive banks of four and a couple of Heskey-esque hard working forwards. Formations are all about application.

[joey_big_nose]

He's not even a proper journalist - he's a blogger who sneaks an article into the paper once every couple of months.

I don't think he has any higher claim to Gav in the understanding of football tactics.

"Hi, my name's Le Chuck, I prove my tactical knowledge by quoting the guardian website's east European football blogger in my signature"

To be honest, the fact that probably the three most attacking side in European football at the moment - Arsenal, Barcelona and Real Madrid - all normally play vairants of 451 suggests that it can be a highly offensive formation. Man Utd and Liverpool use it too.

You can make the argument that we lack the pace to emulate that sort of attacking style which is valid, but I would not say we have created any less opportunites than we did last year with 442. In fact I think we have been better at carving out chances, even than compared to the end of Hughes' reign.

[philipl]

One thing I have noticed this season is the numbers of players clubs are throwing forwards in attacks and it is usually by clubs playing 4-5-1. Average goals per game are up from under 2.5 last season to 3 this season by the way.

Irrespective of who wrote that piece (and so what if he is the Guardian's Eastern European football correspondence; he probably knows more about Kalinic than any of us do) the comment about 4-5-1's application is 100% correct.

It doesn't invalidate criticism of what happened in the West Ham game this season but it does underline there is far more to Sam's madness/coaching abilities than hoofball.

[den]

Like I said a few weeks ago, because you only name one striker in your team, doesn't mean that you are playing with only one striker.

It's not the teamsheet that matters, it's how many men you can get forward when necessary. We've been doing that a lot better lately.

[tcj_jones]

He's not even a proper journalist - he's a blogger who sneaks an article into the paper once every couple of months.

I don't think he has any higher claim to Gav in the understanding of football tactics.

"Hi, my name's Le Chuck, I prove my tactical knowledge by quoting the guardian website's east European football blogger in my signature"

To be fair Tris, he makes a good point. Fans see Roberts up front on his own and think we are playing for a draw. Yet, the reality is that we are attacking the opposition with players in advanced positions. Arsenal play the 4-5-1 and are probably the most attack minded team in the league.

(PS, I accidently slipped with the mouse and clicked the +1 reputation button on your post. Sorry mate, I know how much it means to people that I support their posts, but I didn't actually mean to in that instance )

[LDRover]

No assurances over Dunn/Reid/Grella's fitness, and a board who'll take most of the proceeds and spit out the change. You can't blame Sam too much for calling Fulham's bluff and asking for more.

Oh yes I can, because whatever they offered must have been more than he's bloody worth.

[T4E]

To be fair Tris, he makes a good point. Fans see Roberts up front on his own and think we are playing for a draw. Yet, the reality is that we are attacking the opposition with players in advanced positions. Arsenal play the 4-5-1 and are probably the most attack minded team in the league.

(PS, I accidently slipped with the mouse and clicked the +1 reputation button on your post. Sorry mate, I know how much it means to people that I support their posts, but I didn't actually mean to in that instance )

He makes a very good point. Attacking the writer does not adequately critique the content. Common misconception round here.

[Big Fat Sam]

How on earth are formations neutral, come on seriously. If application is the only influencing factor then lets remove it, consider the 442 pitch split into thirds. Now lets start with the goalkeeper how many unique passes can he make? How many go into the final third? Do that with all the players and you'll end up with a figure, a unique number of passes into the attacking third. Every formation has a set number of passes into the attacking third with 424 having the most which I'm afraid makes it an attacking formation, not neutral.

All the clubs mentioned to back up the claim with 451 switch to a 433 when in possession another small part that has been missed out why? Because it allows for more unique passes into the final third, making the team more attacking.

Theres far more to consider than just formation and application, but both are important.

[FourLaneBlue]

I think next weeks game could be make or break for Allardyce even at this early stage in his Ewood career. You have to believe he’ll play 4-5-1, like he’s done all season so far, and that in itself has many fans up in arms before we’ve even kicked a ball.

That shower are coming to play 4-4-2, the formation we’d like to see, and if it comes off I think Sam could be in for a rough couple of weeks.

It isn't the formation but how it utilised that could be the problem. 4-5-1 need be no less attack-minded than a 4-4-2 as long as the midfield support the forward. In essence it should be a 4-5-1 when defending which changes to a 4-3-3 as soon as we attack. Utlised like this it can be more attacking than a 4-4-2 when we have the ball but offers more cover than that other formation once we are on the back foot.

To do this however you need a striker who is exceptionally good playing in that way. Davies does it at Bolton well and Di Santo looks like the part. Jason Roberts does not do it so well nor does Benni.

[FourLaneBlue]

He's not even a proper journalist - he's a blogger who sneaks an article into the paper once every couple of months.

I don't think he has any higher claim to Gav in the understanding of football tactics.

"Hi, my name's Le Chuck, I prove my tactical knowledge by quoting the guardian website's east European football blogger in my signature"

Take some time to read Wilson's excellent book on tactics, Inventing the Pyramid, and I am sure you will come to the conclusion that he does actually have a lot of knowledge on the subject.

[FourLaneBlue]

All the clubs mentioned to back up the claim with 451 switch to a 433 when in possession another small part that has been missed out why? Because it allows for more unique passes into the final third, making the team more attacking.

Theres far more to consider than just formation and application, but both are important.

Ultimately formations can only take you so far. After that it is the players that make the difference. Do we have enough pace to really exploit such a formation as 4-5-1 or is it more of a defensive formation while we hope to nick a goal here and there?

Do we have enough pace in the side - and particularly the midfield - to truly exploit such a system? Certainly we would have to say it is at best a work in progress...

[patrickvalery]

Ultimately formations can only take you so far. After that it is the players that make the difference. Do we have enough pace to really exploit such a formation as 4-5-1 or is it more of a defensive formation while we hope to nick a goal here and there?

Do we have enough pace in the side - and particularly the midfield - to truly exploit such a system? Certainly we would have to say it is at best a work in progress...

Absolutely work in progress.

For me the key players in this formation are the wide men. Pace has to be key to this formation being a sucess. If you look at Sam's summer signings they begin to make more sense when put into the context of a side deploying 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 formations. In diouf and Pedersen we have less pace but better ball retention. In Hoilett and possibly Van Heerden we have pace, skill and direct attack minded players. Depending on the opposition and their strenghts and weaknesses it allows chances for different types. Against top sides ball retention is key as the chances are we will be under the cosh for longer periods. Weaker sides or when chasing a result allows Hoilett and hoepfully Van Heerden the opportunity to stretch teams.

Unfortunately at this stage we are waiting on the latter two players to find their feet at this level. Van Heerden is obviously hard to judge at the moment. But Hoilett looks like he has the necessary potential. The only confusing part for me is where Kalinic fits in. Clearly a little light weight at the moment. Will he have the strength and guile to run the front line on his own? Again i guess the jury is still out. But all we can do is hope he reaches those levels. You have to say the ideal front man for this formation would have been RSC.

[Silencio]

Take some time to read Wilson's excellent book on tactics, Inventing the Pyramid, and I am sure you will come to the conclusion that he does actually have a lot of knowledge on the subject.

"Inverting the Pyramid" and his excellent book on Eastern European football "Behind the Iron Curtain" are two of the best written, best researched and most informative books on football. I would say Jonathon Wilson is up there with Brian Glanville as the best football writer around. He is certainly more than "just a blogger"...

[Steve Moss]

I've just ordered "Inverting the Pyramid" from Amazon. I need all the help I can get coaching U-8. I was recruited with the promise that it was just a matter of running the kids through drills. I've since discovered that half the parent-coaches are fanatics and are actually employing tactics. I, lacking any tactical knowledge (though I am capable of teaching the kids to dribble and pass), find this highly unfair.

Sam should write a book on tactics. I'd buy it.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Whether its 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1 does not matter if the front man is not up to the job. Sam's formation works with Di Santo up there to hold the ball, work the defenders but does not work with big Jase up there.

Surely Sam can see that. If Sam persists with the formation without Di Santo then he is pig headed but if he adjusts the formation to suit his players available then he goes down as a better manager.

[dulwich]

But it all depends on how you manipulate those statistics/formations. For instance, there is a greater amount of unique passes and attacking potential in the 4-3-3 than the 4-5-1, which is why we switch to 4-3-3 once we have possession. There is more unique passes in the 4-4-2, but that's another debate however.

In research though, passes above 44 yards have been excluded, which if you are hitting your front men early, as we are, sort of nullifies these statistics.

Also doesn't take into account the personnel involved in either formation. What is the point of having an x amount of unique passes available, if the players are unable to either give or take a pass, work the defence, or even get a shot on target?

It's this reliance on statistics, or formulae, which gives rise to functional football from the likes of Allardyce, Boothroyd, and dare we say, Mourinho.

[philipl]

:blink:It would be terrible stuff if Mourinho became Rovers manager.

[dulwich]

:blink:It would be terrible stuff if Mourinho became Rovers manager.

And that is relevant how?

If only to perfectly illustrate how to skew an argument...

[thenodrog]

Whether its 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1 does not matter if the front man is not up to the job. Sam's formation works with Di Santo up there to hold the ball, work the defenders but does not work with big Jase up there.

Surely Sam can see that. If Sam persists with the formation without Di Santo then he is pig headed but if he adjusts the formation to suit his players available then he goes down as a better manager.

The lone striker has to be of top quality in a 4-5-1. Come Jan Chelsea will likely have 3! Pity there was so much opposition in the summer on this mboard and in the Bolton boardroom to SA going in for one of the best in the business.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

The lone striker has to be of top quality in a 4-5-1. Come Jan Chelsea will likely have 3! Pity there was so much opposition in the summer on this mboard and in the Bolton boardroom to SA going in for one of the best in the business.

As soon as it was clear that Sam went after Big Kev it was clear what formation he was setting up at Rovers for this season. I suspect come Jan if di Santos returns to Chelsea then I fear the return of Big Chris up front as I can't see any of the remaining forwards with the ability to play the role.

I can't see Sam going back to 4-4-2.

[Big Fat Sam]

Ultimately formations can only take you so far. After that it is the players that make the difference. Do we have enough pace to really exploit such a formation as 4-5-1 or is it more of a defensive formation while we hope to nick a goal here and there?

Do we have enough pace in the side - and particularly the midfield - to truly exploit such a system? Certainly we would have to say it is at best a work in progress...

But they are not neutral as the writer states, we both agree on that one. Attitude, approach and philosophy will add more into the equation as we have both said, but my issue was always his statement that formations are neutral.

We do lack pace to play the system that we are currently, but I'm hoping that with Emertons return we can take a different approach, fluidity. When he came on against Villa he was popping up effectively on the left, the right, the middle, all over. If we can get the attacking midfield three swapping over and overloading sides then we may be able to create more. But Pace would make it easier and allow more options, so hopefully Sam fits Hoillet into the equation some how?

There's a way to go definitely and whilst personally I prefer 2 up top, Dunn's re-emergence compensates at present and our weak as rocking horse central midfield necessitates it. Hopefully with the break we've been able to get a better grasp of the new tactical system and can show it against the Dingles.

The Dingles have struggled against pace so far, so having one or two in the main attacking 4 should make our life's easier. I'd be tempted to play both Hoillet and Di Santo if possible, probably with Emo and Dunn (they will both be going all out to win this one, not that others won't but they're both Rovers through and through). We just have to wait and hope that our new quicker players get up to speed in the next couple of months.

-----------------Robbo------------------

Chimbonda--Samba------Nelsen-----Givet

-----------N'zonzi----Gamst-------------

Emerton----------Dunn-----------Hoillet

----------------Di Santo--------------

Thats how I reckon I would start against the Dingles next weekend and I believe it gives us good balance and lots of attacking options. Hopefully Sam starts introducing the likes of van heerden, Kalinic and Reid as we would be much stronger if those three could be added into the team/bench and they are effective.

[thenodrog]

As soon as it was clear that Sam went after Big Kev it was clear what formation he was setting up at Rovers for this season. I suspect come Jan if di Santos returns to Chelsea then I fear the return of Big Chris up front as I can't see any of the remaining forwards with the ability to play the role.

I can't see Sam going back to 4-4-2.

I'd wager Sam will more likely offload Benny (or A N Other) and use his wages to attract another striker more suited to the 4-5-1 role.

Ultimately formations can only take you so far. After that it is the players that make the difference. Do we have enough pace to really exploit such a formation as 4-5-1 or is it more of a defensive formation while we hope to nick a goal here and there?

Do we have enough pace in the side - and particularly the midfield - to truly exploit such a system? Certainly we would have to say it is at best a work in progress...

Why is pace that necessary to play 4-5-1?

Arsenal play one up front and have pace to burn but pre Anelka Chelsea similarly played one up front yet had none. Lpool also have no real speed merchants.

[LeChuck]

Everton are another good example of a slow team playing 4-5-1. They play Cahill behind a striker in a similar way to how we play Dunn, but they don't really have any pace at all out wide.

[tcj_jones]

-----------------Robbo------------------

Chimbonda--Samba------Nelsen-----Givet

-----------N'zonzi----Gamst-------------

Emerton----------Dunn-----------Hoillet

----------------Di Santo--------------

Pedersen as a defensive midfielder?

[dulwich]

-----------------Robbo------------------

Chimbonda--Samba------Nelsen-----Givet

-----------N'zonzi----Gamst-------------

Emerton----------Dunn-----------Hoillet

----------------Di Santo--------------

-----------------Robbo------------------

Chimbonda--Samba------Nelsen-----Givet

-----------N'zonzi----Emerton-------------

Hoillet----------Dunn-----------Gamst

----------------Di Santo--------------

Surely??