[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[dulwich]

I'll give you mine dulwich. EHD can't tackle which is quite important in midfield.

Hence why I mentioned his temperament. However, I still think he'll be an improvement on Andrews, and Pedersen is too lightweight to play there imo. I will agree that Emerton could be the best try there, could be the powerful midfielder we need to drive us forward.

[joey_big_nose]

I'll give you mine dulwich. EHD can't tackle which is quite important in midfield.

EHD needs to be on a wing and to concentrate on not letting Burnley wind him up cos the are sure to try it on with him. Coyle's team talk will centre on ....

1. Kicking Dunny off the park.

2. Winding EHD up.

3. Playing one - twos around our defence.... v Arsenal last week nobody was going with the runner and thats one of the reasons that they got 6.

Presuming that everyone is fit apart from Grella who looks like he won't make it team HAS to be:

-----------------------Di Santo

------------Diouf-------Dunn-----Hoilett

------------------NZonzi----Emerton

Chimbonda----Givet----Samba----Jacobsen

----------------------Robinson

I don't think there is much doubt about that team except for Sam being an idiot and putting Emerton wide right and Andrews alongside NZonzi. That would be STUPID. Hoilett is good enough, he looks more dangerous than any of our players apart from Dunn, he has pace, he seems a goal threat. He needs to start.

Brown, Olsson, Nelsen, Salgado/Pedersen, Kalinic, Andrews, McCarthy on the bench.

[LeChuck]

Presuming that everyone is fit apart from Grella who looks like he won't make it team HAS to be:

Again JBN, I'm going to have to prepare you for disappointment!

Hoilett won't start, there is no chance of it. He hasn't started a PL game yet and is still only a teenager, I don't think Sam would throw him into a game that might be a bit 'tasty' unless he was forced. Your team but with Diouf on the right and Pedersen could happen, but more likely I think Andrews in the middle and Emerton on the right. I wouldn't play that myself though, I'd go with the Diouf/Pedersen option (got a feeling Peds might pull one of his specials out for this game).

[waggy]

lardarse has to set his team up on sunday to attack the dingles,they are crap away from home and concede goals aplenty on the road,we need two men up front,not one with dunny in the hole,this is a match we must win and about time lardarse stopped being negative in his team selections,lose this game and his future will be bleak

[Blue blood]

Agree with all of what Le Chuck says. I'd go for the team he suggests - with Holliett coming off the bench to run the dingles ragged in the last 25 mins. I've a feeling this could be a game where Peds shines - he's got the experience of this derby and knows what it means to the fans, which i think will be very important.

However I've a feeling he'll go with Andrews & N'Zonzi in the centre. I think this is a mistake - it is asking far too much of N'Zonzi to guard the back line and make up for Andrews haring off all over the place. It's a big burden on the lad, especially in a derby game.

I think we're going in the right direction under Sam, but his continual inclusion of Andrews suprises me. Both Peds and Emerton seem better shouts for the central midfield slot, in the case of the latter we know he can do a good job there, so why persist with Andrews?

Sam has to win this one. One thing I'm confident about is that we won't loose, which really will mess up a lot of good will the fans have towards Sam. However, the way we set up, like the Wham game, and bar the first few minutes vs Villa is not to loose. This being the case I doubt the dingles will humiliate us by winning. As others have said, the dingles are weak on the road, and perhaps going all out from the start might be the best policy against them. Maybe Sam's caution might cost us two points. It'll be interesting to find out.

[joey_big_nose]

Again JBN, I'm going to have to prepare you for disappointment!

Hoilett won't start, there is no chance of it. He hasn't started a PL game yet and is still only a teenager, I don't think Sam would throw him into a game that might be a bit 'tasty' unless he was forced. Your team but with Diouf on the right and Pedersen could happen, but more likely I think Andrews in the middle and Emerton on the right. I wouldn't play that myself though, I'd go with the Diouf/Pedersen option (got a feeling Peds might pull one of his specials out for this game).

Well, if Sam plays Andrews I will weep in despair. Hoilett should be starting. There is no real reason why he shouldn't the current incumbrants are not performing and the Canadian has looked very decent when he has made an appearence.

Re: Waggy - It's not a bloody negative formation. Dunn is our best player, he thrives in the freedom it provides. It creates more chances than we would in 442 and suits our players better. It is our most effective, attacking and defending, way to set up.

If Dunn was injured I might agree, but in his form I would not change anything about it.

[sambo]

lardarse has to set his team up on sunday to attack the dingles,they are crap away from home and concede goals aplenty on the road,we need two men up front,not one with dunny in the hole,this is a match we must win and about time lardarse stopped being negative in his team selections,lose this game and his future will be bleak

I agree whole-heartedly on the last bit!

[mellison24]

lardarse has to set his team up on sunday to attack the dingles,they are crap away from home and concede goals aplenty on the road,we need two men up front,not one with dunny in the hole,this is a match we must win and about time lardarse stopped being negative in his team selections,lose this game and his future will be bleak

What have you done with Waggy?? I agreed!!

[Amo]

I imagine Sam will set his stall up close to:

Robinson

Jacobsen - Samba - Givet - Chimbonda

Emerton - Nzonzi - Andrews - Diouf

Dunn

Di Santo

[Miker]

I gave an explanation for my idea, what's yours?

It was a subtle explanation, I guess you missed it. You do not play established players OUT OF POSITION, if you don't have to. Diouf is in no way a defensive midfield player, he doesn't have sufficient attributes to play in that position or knowledge of that role to play in it. While Emerton has played in the centre of midfield and at right back, he is a RIGHT WINGER. He came to Blackburn initially BECAUSE we offered to let him play on the right wing, rather than in the centre, so all of a sudden we're going back to Ince tactics and playing players out of position?? Emerton, Pedersen and Diouf are all attacking players, whether they have defensive qualities and could do a job there or not, there is no reason for Sam to be playing them in defensive positions and I do not wish to encourage him to do that.

I am expecting Grella or Reid to start alongside N'zonzi, if either are fit, but while I would rather Andrews did not play, I would rather see a central midfielder play in a central midfield position, than a winger. The only player I would consider being put in that role is Salgado, but after Everton that option doesn't fill you with a lot of confidence. It's a much more reasonable expectation for a right back to be made into a defensive midfielder than a winger though.

Topman's lineup is the most realistic proposed so far, although I wouldn't be surprised to have Nelsen brought in for Chimbonda and Givet moved to left back. I'd like to see Hoilett start, but if I'm honest, I would have to admit that he's not ready to start just yet, especially in a derby game where the pressure will be immense.

[Miker]

Oh and my point with the Brown comment is that if we decided to play Brown up front, and he did a better job than Roberts, it does NOT mean that we should still be playing him there. The same applies to Diouf, Pedersen or Emerton.

[dulwich]

It was a subtle explanation, I guess you missed it.

I didn't miss it. Guess you missed sarcasm.

[Blue blood]

While Emerton has played in the centre of midfield and at right back, he is a RIGHT WINGER. He came to Blackburn initially BECAUSE we offered to let him play on the right wing, rather than in the centre, so all of a sudden we're going back to Ince tactics and playing players out of position??

Emerton was miles better at right back and centre mid then he ever was for us at right winger. He is an all round hard worker, and much as I rate the guy he is hardly the most attacking player ever, he struggles to be incisive at right mid. He was excellent under Hughes both at right back and centre mid, whereas he was just decent at right mid. I'd hardly call that bad tactics, but rather an astute use of a player.

[Miker]

I didn't miss it. Guess you missed sarcasm.

Sarcasm usually involves saying something positive to someone, when actually meaning something negative. So yes, I guess I did miss the fact that you were ACTUALLY trying to tell me that your point was absolute rubbish and mine was constructive. Sorry

Emerton was miles better at right back and centre mid then he ever was for us at right winger. He is an all round hard worker, and much as I rate the guy he is hardly the most attacking player ever, he struggles to be incisive at right mid. He was excellent under Hughes both at right back and centre mid, whereas he was just decent at right mid. I'd hardly call that bad tactics, but rather an astute use of a player.

My point isn't that it's bad tactics, my point is that it's not Emerton's natural position. He spent most of his career playing at right win, whether you think he's better there or somewhere else. When was the last time he did play in a central midfield position anyway? I can't think of any instance over the past 2 year or so.

[joey_big_nose]

My point isn't that it's bad tactics, my point is that it's not Emerton's natural position. He spent most of his career playing at right win, whether you think he's better there or somewhere else. When was the last time he did play in a central midfield position anyway? I can't think of any instance over the past 2 year or so.

Under the last season of hHughes (so about 18months ago) he played CM a fair few times. He is a better central mid. No doubt of that. He should play there. Just because Barry started off at Left Back does not mean you would persist in playing him there does it?

It is his best positon, it is where we are weak, it is an obvious move. Not sure why Sam does not get this.

ps. If you wanted to be picky about it he actually played most of his early career as a wing back in the days when 532 was popular. You can see how this has affected his style.

[dulwich]

Sarcasm usually involves saying something positive to someone, when actually meaning something negative. So yes, I guess I did miss the fact that you were ACTUALLY trying to tell me that your point was absolute rubbish and mine was constructive. Sorry

My point isn't that it's bad tactics, my point is that it's not Emerton's natural position. He spent most of his career playing at right win, whether you think he's better there or somewhere else. When was the last time he did play in a central midfield position anyway? I can't think of any instance over the past 2 year or so.

But at least I actually tried to back up my point without making a facetious comment.

Should we have the debate about which was Mark Atkins best position??

[Blue blood]

Sarcasm usually involves saying something positive to someone, when actually meaning something negative. So yes, I guess I did miss the fact that you were ACTUALLY trying to tell me that your point was absolute rubbish and mine was constructive. Sorry

My point isn't that it's bad tactics, my point is that it's not Emerton's natural position. He spent most of his career playing at right win, whether you think he's better there or somewhere else. When was the last time he did play in a central midfield position anyway? I can't think of any instance over the past 2 year or so.

Surely the best thing to do is play players where they perform best not what their preferred/natural position is? So what if it's not his natural position.

JBN makes a cracking point about him being a rwb and I think that he still plays like that whether he's at right mid or right back. Obviously it's of more benefit when playing right back as the offensive aspect is a very welcome bonus.

[Miker]

Surely the best thing to do is play players where they perform best not what their preferred/natural position is? So what if it's not his natural position.

JBN makes a cracking point about him being a rwb and I think that he still plays like that whether he's at right mid or right back. Obviously it's of more benefit when playing right back as the offensive aspect is a very welcome bonus.

That's fair enough, but there's more in common between a right winger and a right back than a right winger and a defensive midfielder. If you're playing at right back or right wing back you're still involved in attacks and linking up play a lot, but as a defensive midfielder you're ideally just breaking up play and helping out the defense, so in the sort of set up Sam has, where the defensive midfielder doesn't get involved in attacks as much, Emerton doesn't really fit IMO. The whole mentality for someone play on the flank is COMPLETELY different to someone playing in the centre.

Barry might've started out at left back, but he was much younger when he did. He played in his different positions on a regular basis and would've most likely done specific positional training week in, week out whether he was playing as a left back, left winger or in the middle. This isn't the case with Emerton, that's why I'm asking when was the last time he played as a central midfielder and when was the last time he did regular training as one? You can't just stick him in the middle like that. What about telling the longest serving member in the team, who's 30, that he is pretty average on the wing and all that time he spent on bettering himself as a winger was pointless and he should play in the middle where he doesn't want to play? Sam's job is about managing players as well don't forget.

[Blue blood]

That's fair enough, but there's more in common between a right winger and a right back than a right winger and a defensive midfielder. If you're playing at right back or right wing back you're still involved in attacks and linking up play a lot, but as a defensive midfielder you're ideally just breaking up play and helping out the defense, so in the sort of set up Sam has, where the defensive midfielder doesn't get involved in attacks as much, Emerton doesn't really fit IMO. The whole mentality for someone play on the flank is COMPLETELY different to someone playing in the centre.

Barry might've started out at left back, but he was much younger when he did. He played in his different positions on a regular basis and would've most likely done specific positional training week in, week out whether he was playing as a left back, left winger or in the middle. This isn't the case with Emerton, that's why I'm asking when was the last time he played as a central midfielder and when was the last time he did regular training as one? You can't just stick him in the middle like that. What about telling the longest serving member in the team, who's 30, that he is pretty average on the wing and all that time he spent on bettering himself as a winger was pointless and he should play in the middle where he doesn't want to play? Sam's job is about managing players as well don't forget.

Tbh I don't think Sam would use him as the sitter in defensive midfield, which I agree Emerton would be wasted at but more the defensive midfielder who hares about all over the place closing down the opposition, more in the mould of Savage or Flitty, then a sitter like N'Zonzi or Grella. This is tthe role that Andrews tries to play, the chasing it down midfielder, although with little success. We've seen when we have two sitters, i.e. Grella and N'Zonzi we're a bit light going forwards. Emerton is ideal as the closing it down midfielder, as he also had the pace and energy to get forward and support the attack.

Whilst I also agree that the mentality is different Emerton seems to have mastered this, as shown by his performances as a centre mid. In fact over the last two/three years he's probably spent more time training as a right back or centre mid then he has a right mid, although I don't think that's too relivent as he seems to switch between the positions naturally. In fact only under Ince in the last two years has he really spent any time at right mid,so I'd hardly say that's his natural position.

Nor is the motivation side of things a problem imo. After all being told you are very good in a certain position is flattering, whether it's your natural one or not. Besides in interviews, Emerton has stated he's happy enough to play wherever.

[FourLaneBlue]

Oh and my point with the Brown comment is that if we decided to play Brown up front, and he did a better job than Roberts, it does NOT mean that we should still be playing him there. The same applies to Diouf, Pedersen or Emerton.

Of course it means that. Play players where they play to their best and not to some make-believe "natural" position.

We originally bought Colin Hendry as a centre forward yet he won the title with us as a defender. Mark Atkins was a right back who turned into a midfielder. Not all players are so rigid in which position they play. Versatility is important.

The whole mentality for someone play on the flank is COMPLETELY different to someone playing in the centre.

The likes of Dunn, Joe Cole and Gerrard have been swapping between them their entire careers.

I understand what you are trying to say...that players play better in their natural position and so should be played there. I agree that with many players that is correct. However some are versatile and can play in different positons. Some rare ones can even play all over the shop. Furthermore we do not have the necessary quality or quantity in our squad to be so rigid. Particularly as we have about 3 times as many orthodox right backs as we do left backs.

[Miker]

Of course it means that. Play players where they play to their best and not to some make-believe "natural" position.

We originally bought Colin Hendry as a centre forward yet he won the title with us as a defender. Mark Atkins was a right back who turned into a midfielder. Not all players are so rigid in which position they play. Versatility is important.

The likes of Dunn, Joe Cole and Gerrard have been swapping between them their entire careers.

I understand what you are trying to say...that players play better in their natural position and so should be played there. I agree that with many players that is correct. However some are versatile and can play in different positons. Some rare ones can even play all over the shop. Furthermore we do not have the necessary quality or quantity in our squad to be so rigid. Particularly as we have about 3 times as many orthodox right backs as we do left backs.

I'm pretty sure Gerrard used to complain about the different positions he was being played in and wanted some consistency in a single position because it affected his place in the England squad. How many times has he played a defensive role or as an out-and-out striker anyway? Dunn struggles on the wings, he does a lot better in that hole between the midfield and striker that Sam is playing him in currently. I'm sorry but Emerton is an attacking player for me, I remember the last few games he played for us when Ince was in charge on the right flank where he was vital to our game and people were saying "bentley who?" because he was putting in some quality displays. On the other hand, I don't remember the last time he played in the centre for us, or if indeed he could still do a job there.

Reid, Andrews, Grella and N'zonzi can all play in that midfield role and would consider themselves better options for that role. I don't think you can take someone that's meant to be a right winger/wingback/fullback and place him in a different position that should/could be occupied by 4 other players. It's not just the "natural" position, it's the player's preferred position.

Maybe it's personal bias on my part having played for years on the wing, or maybe it's just personal experience that leads me to believe that any player who is used to playing on the wing or even on the right flank couldn't possibly enjoy himself playing out of position and feel very frustrated instead. Don't get me wrong, any player would love playing in general, but there's a great deal of frustration to deal with and too much work to do to integrate to a new style of play.

Do we have exact statistics to show how well Emerton did in EVERY game playing in the centre of midfield? How many games in total has he played there throughout his career? Why did Mark Hughes play him as a right back for the majority of his last campaign with us if he did such a great job in midfield? Why did Ince not play him in the centre? Why is Sam choosing to play him on the wing? Why did he play on the right when he was in Feyenoord and in his first season with us?

I know the people suggesting we have Emerton in the centre have good intentions, but I'm just not buying the fact that he is "clearly the best choice" there. It then gets to the point of ridiculous when people suggest we play Diouf and Pedersen there. A while back someone even suggested Roberts should be used in the middle... I mean, come on guys, we're not THAT desperate. We should get rid of players if they are unable to perform in their preferred position, not re-train them for new ones.

[John]

Most/all of our players our shyte, does that come into the equation.........?

No, sorry, of course, Sam should mould them into a top 6 side - easy!

[mellison24]

Re: Emerton in midfield. He was used in central (defensive) midfield many times during hughes' reign (just before he was a regular at RB). I recall he did very well for a spell of about 10 games including one stellar performance alongside Tugay against Liverpool (I think it was a boxing day game. Not sure, but deffo around xmas). I'd happily see Emerton played there. Especially ahead of Andrews. We all know Allardyce, won't do this, but here is what I'd put out against Burnley (no pun intended):

------------Robbo-------------

Jacobsen--Samba--Nelsen--Givet

-----------Emerton------------

Dioufy------Dunn------Pedersen

-------Hoilett--Roberts-------

I would put insist on Nelsen being in (as our captain and a player with exp of the derby). Samba and Givet are arguably our best this season. I would toy with the idea of putting Chimbonda at RB, BUT Jacobsen has done little to warrant being dropped as of yet (arguably ditto for Chimbonda ). Emerton in the CDM role. I'll get to the midfield in a minute, but first I'll justify my front 2. I feel that Hoilett's pace (and good passing ability imo) along with Roberts' strength will tire the Burnley defense or at least come close to cancelling it out. This will pave the way for Our midfield to create bags of chances (and hopefully score a few).

With this 1st X1, I'd be fairly confident of at least 3 goals (with Dunn almost CERTAINLY amongst them). Thoughts?

[joey_big_nose]

Re: Emerton in midfield. He was used in central (defensive) midfield many times during hughes' reign (just before he was a regular at RB). I recall he did very well for a spell of about 10 games including one stellar performance alongside Tugay against Liverpool (I think it was a boxing day game. Not sure, but deffo around xmas). I'd happily see Emerton played there. Especially ahead of Andrews. We all know Allardyce, won't do this, but here is what I'd put out against Burnley (no pun intended):

------------Robbo-------------

Jacobsen--Samba--Nelsen--Givet

-----------Emerton------------

Dioufy------Dunn------Pedersen

-------Hoilett--Roberts-------

I would put insist on Nelsen being in (as our captain and a player with exp of the derby). Samba and Givet are arguably our best this season. I would toy with the idea of putting Chimbonda at RB, BUT Jacobsen has done little to warrant being dropped as of yet (arguably ditto for Chimbonda ). Emerton in the CDM role. I'll get to the midfield in a minute, but first I'll justify my front 2. I feel that Hoilett's pace (and good passing ability imo) along with Roberts' strength will tire the Burnley defense or at least come close to cancelling it out. This will pave the way for Our midfield to create bags of chances (and hopefully score a few).

With this 1st X1, I'd be fairly confident of at least 3 goals (with Dunn almost CERTAINLY amongst them). Thoughts?

You have to be the only person on here who would advocate dropping DI Santo for Roberts!

I would like to see Hoilett play but due to him putting in 90 against Stanley that does not look on the cards.

It looks like it is either Di Santo up front with Dunn in behind, or (looking at who played for 30 against Stanley) maybe Di Santo and one of either Kalinic or McCarthy in a 442.

Still think we will stick with 4231 though.

[dulwich]

I'd personally go for the 4-4-2 as well. Firstly I very much doubt they'd be expecting it, and with Dunn playing in the hole, I think we'll see Alexander following him around for 90 minutes. So we either need to hope that Dunn can get around this himself, or we need to nullify it by changing shape slightly. Dunn on the left anyone?