[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[gumboots]

Of course that's a bit of a silly suggestion, there will managers out there who could do that.

The thing is though, it would be a massive risk at the moment to try and find someone who could because it isn't even remotely clear who those managers are. It would be another gamble, like Ince was. Next time we might get lucky and find a brilliant manager, but we could just as easily find another person out of their depth and taking the club to relegation and everything that would lead to.

We were lucky that someone like Allardyce was available to save us last time. Next time we might not be so fortunate if we made a bad appointment. It's just far, far too much of a risk to think about taking a gamble on another manager whilst we're near the top half of the table. If we ever look like we're going to be around the bottom three then maybe that can change.

Exactly. i never wanted the manager, hoped never to see him at Ewood and wish still he wasn't here. However, he is and to replace him at the moment or in the foreseeable future woudl be a huge financial risk that we simply cannot afford to take. If he hadn't turned results round a few weeks ago then we might have had to take that gamble because we were heading out of the league with all that implies financially. However, perhaps more by luck than good management, or perhaps he is actually better than we often let ourselves think, he did turn it round and therefore there will be no changes in the immediate future. Doesn't mean we have to like it; doesn't mean we can't criticise but to think of changing now or to think that JW might be thinking about the replacement is wrong. Like him or loathe him and all points inbetween learn to live with him.

[FourLaneBlue]

JW simply uses the wage bill to make a general judgement of success - as he sees it. In his opinion, if we have the tenth highest wage bill, then anything higher than tenth place finish is a tick, - a plus. Anything less than a tenth place finish, is in his words a minus.

That's a blinkered way of judging things though isn't it? If that is how is sees it in so simplified a manner?. If we are 10th on wages spent but 20th on money used to keep the squad replenished and of a suitable quality then anything above about 16th is a bonus.

Besides...what do wages matter if the players you are paying it to either rarely play because injured or are not good enough anymore?

Of course wages are a very important part of where a team finishes but that also seems to have led to the board thinking things will stand still because of that. When the likes of Sunderland, Stoke, Spurs, Villa, Fulham, Everton etc are blasting us out of the water when it comes to transfers in a way they didn't even 3 years ago then we have a problem.

Paying the same amount of wages to a squad that was good 2 years ago but is now a shadow of its former self is not going to viable in the long run.

[den]

That's a blinkered way of judging things though isn't it? If that is how is sees it in so simplified a manner?. If we are 10th on wages spent but 20th on money used to keep the squad replenished and of a suitable quality then anything above about 16th is a bonus.

Besides...what do wages matter if the players you are paying it to either rarely play because injured or are not good enough anymore?

Of course wages are a very important part of where a team finishes but that also seems to have led to the board thinking things will stand still because of that. When the likes of Sunderland, Stoke, Spurs, Villa, Fulham, Everton etc are blasting us out of the water when it comes to transfers in a way they didn't even 3 years ago then we have a problem.

Paying the same amount of wages to a squad that was good 2 years ago but is now a shadow of its former self is not going to viable in the long run.

People are taking the idea that rovers budgeted for 13th spot too literally FLB. The club will give as much money as possible, - clubs future not withstanding - to the manager. That's all I'm trying to point out. It's no big deal.

[FourLaneBlue]

People are taking the idea that rovers budgeted for 13th spot too literally FLB. The club will give as much money as possible, - clubs future not withstanding - to the manager. That's all I'm trying to point out. It's no big deal.

I never said it was a big deal. Just having a chat about Rovers.

I'm just making the point that if people at the club expect the manager to achieve certain goals then they should be backing him. Something the club has singularly failed to do so far.

With each transfer window that has gone by for the last 3 years or so we seem to have been weakened a little bit.

I'm just wondering how long that can go on without seriously endangering our Premership status for good...

[den]

I never said it was a big deal. Just having a chat about Rovers.

I'm just making the point that if people at the club expect the manager to achieve certain goals then they should be backing him. Something the club has singularly failed to do so far.

With each transfer window that has gone by for the last 3 years or so we seem to have been weakened a little bit.

I'm just wondering how long that can go on without seriously endangering our Premership status for good...

I don't think people at the club are expecting the manager to replicate the wage bill in terms of final league position. I'm just trying to respond to some earlier posts where people were suggesting that the club budget for a certain league position.

I didn't mean you personally was making a big deal out of it either FLB.

[thenodrog]

..... I can't believe people are so brainwashed.

You seriously believe their is nobody else who could keep us up while trying to play abit of football at the same time? Really?

But when you roll the dice you never know whether you'll land on a snake or a ladder do you? It is quite important and especially when every throw costs you a few million.

Our Snakes have been Ray Harford (RIP), Brian Kidd and Paul Ince whilst our ladders have been KMD, Mark Hughes and Sam (to date) with the steps in between being Woy, Souey and TP. So can you give me a good reason to gamble at the moment MGM?

btw who would you choose to come in and be a 'ladder' with little or no money available?

[Stuart]

A bit of misconstruction of the facts here lads.

There is no budgetting to finish anywhere. The club will put as much money to the manager as is possible. They don't say to Sam "here's enough money to finish 17th this season". JW simply uses the wage bill to make a general judgement of success - as he sees it. In his opinion, if we have the tenth highest wage bill, then anything higher than tenth place finish is a tick, - a plus. Anything less than a tenth place finish, is in his words a minus.

Don't get carried away the idea that the club aim for a final league position.

I don't think it's quite like that, den. You might be putting the cart before the horse.

The way I see it, we have a cost base which will be sustainable if we finish 13th. If Sam does achieve 13th place, we don't HAVE to sell anyone in the Summer. Finish 17th and I would bank on losing Samba. Making any further changes to the squad would then have to be as a result of wheeling and dealing from what's left.

This is assuming no extra "investment" from the owners, or new loans.

There's a lot more resting on it than a "tick in a box".

[FourLaneBlue]

Yes...so in other words Sam needs to be hitting a certain target so our revenue does not have to supplemented by sales.

However as each year goes by the Rovers manager gets slightly less to have to achieve that goal.

That is why we will likely keep selling the silverware. We can't get new players in otherwise plus we have to balance the books as well.

[den]

I don't think it's quite like that, den. You might be putting the cart before the horse.

No, it's simply his way of generalising whether the club is performing acceptably. In general, the clubs with the biggest wage bill finish highest. That's all I'm talking about - others might be discussing something different. There's nothing else to it.

[T4E]

But when you roll the dice you never know whether you'll land on a snake or a ladder do you? It is quite important and especially when every throw costs you a few million.

Our Snakes have been Ray Harford (RIP), Brian Kidd and Paul Ince whilst our ladders have been KMD, Mark Hughes and Sam (to date) with the steps in between being Woy, Souey and TP.

Souey not a ladder? Really??

If anything Souness was an escalator.

[S15]

Souey not a ladder? Really??

If anything Souness was an escalator.

A motherf**king intergalactic transporter.

[mellison24]

A motherf**king intergalactic transporter.

A Tardis? Albeit a slightly malfuntioning one (for the last couple of months).

[Miker]

..... I can't believe people are so brainwashed.

You seriously believe their is nobody else who could keep us up while trying to play abit of football at the same time? Really?

If we were talking about bringing in a new manager in after Sam, then my choice would be someone like Zola. It's hard to find too many young ex-players, who have the same sort of love for football that Zola does though. Despite not being too great tactically, Zola seems to command the respect of the players more than other managers, and is an excellent coach as well.

My only problem with Sam actually, would be the fact that as someone in such poor health, he's not the greatest role model for players. It's hard to tell your players to keep fit and work hard, when you're "Big Fat" Sam and have been in hospital recently due to heart problems. It just seems a bit ironic to me.

[Miker]

Yes...so in other words Sam needs to be hitting a certain target so our revenue does not have to supplemented by sales.

However as each year goes by the Rovers manager gets slightly less to have to achieve that goal.

That is why we will likely keep selling the silverware. We can't get new players in otherwise plus we have to balance the books as well.

Well that's the point isn't it? If Sam is given less money/a smaller budget, then the expectation on him will be less. I don't think the club will be expecting Sam to finish in the top 10 each season and continually decrease his budget, for example.

Den clarified my earlier post fairly well, I don't mean to say that we're specifically aiming for 13th or that it has been set as a target, but judging by what Walker has told us in the press, this is the position we would LIKE to finish in (at the very least), as this will mean we can make progress next season.

[Hughesy]

We budget for a position which ensures we dont have to sell to balance the books. (13th this season)

Its then up to the players & manager to finish higher and get us abit of spending money to help move things along. A good cup run will always help.

Its then up to the manager to cut his cloth, with trading of players, freebies or a good scouting network to find bargains/ gems. So far Id say Sam is doing a very good job. He is trying hard to get our average age down and has found quite a few very good young players who look good and will progress and will eventually progress so much that we sell them on for big profit.

The key for us is to bring through some home-grown talent which will enable us to keep costs & wages down...hopefully it looks like we might have a few with the likes of Olsson, Hoilett (If we can tie him down), Jones, Doran....we have then also picked up some other young players who cost a snip in the likes of NZonzi, and hopefully Linganzi.

[Gav]

I must say that despite hating the football we’re playing at the moment, I’m really encouraged that the manager is looking at bringing youth into the side. I’m not sure if this is a conscious thing or his hand is being forced, but whatever the reason its good to see.

One thing about Allardyce is the transfer window will never be a dull affair, even if we don’t manage to get anyone on board we’re in for players, and he speaks rather openly to the media about targets.

Now that’s enough praise for one day.

[thenodrog]

Souey not a ladder? Really??

If anything Souness was an escalator.

Souness was more like a lift attendant. We got on at the bottom and should have got off at the top. We didn't we dillied and dallied and waited until we were half way down again by which time he got out whilst lifting our wallet out of our arse pocket in the process!

** imo only of course and is no way representational of the mboards own opinions or the opinions of any individuals thereof etc etc .

Now that’s enough praise for one day.

You've just been crossed off waggys Christmas card list.

[Iceman]

** imo only of course and is no way representational of the mboards own opinions or the opinions of any individuals thereof etc etc .

i dont think it applies to the message board Gordon... things are just out of control, so have your say..

[RevidgeBlue]

A bit of misconstruction of the facts here lads.

There is no budgetting to finish anywhere. The club will put as much money to the manager as is possible. They don't say to Sam "here's enough money to finish 17th this season". JW simply uses the wage bill to make a general judgement of success - as he sees it. In his opinion, if we have the tenth highest wage bill, then anything higher than tenth place finish is a tick, - a plus. Anything less than a tenth place finish, is in his words a minus.

Don't get carried away the idea that the club aim for a final league position.

It's my understanding that's exactly what we do do Den.

The Board submit a budget to the Trustees every year. That projected budget will of course include an amount for TV money/ league placement calculated on the basis we will finish 13th or whatever position it is we have budgeted for.

My only problem with Sam actually, would be the fact that as someone in such poor health, he's not the greatest role model for players. It's hard to tell your players to keep fit and work hard, when you're "Big Fat" Sam and have been in hospital recently due to heart problems. It just seems a bit ironic to me.

You don't half talk some rubbish.

Anyone of a certain age could suffer from a blocked artery regardless of the state of their overall health. The suggestion that Sam in his mid 50's also needs to be running marathons before the players will attend to their own fitness is even more ludicrous.

[bellamy11]

i dont think it applies to the message board Gordon... things are just out of control, so have your say..

Iceman - I think the statement is more in reference to Gordon's accusation that Graeme Souness's transfer dealings were deliberately set up to ensure that he and his associates profited financially. Allegedly, of course.

[Hughesy]

If we were talking about bringing in a new manager in after Sam, then my choice would be someone like Zola.

Zola?!?! No thanks!

[den]

It's my understanding that's exactly what we do do Den.

The Board submit a budget to the Trustees every year. That projected budget will of course include an amount for TV money/ league placement calculated on the basis we will finish 13th or whatever position it is we have budgeted for.

I've obviously got the wrong end of the stick here Simon. The projection is also, obviously but generally, used to judge the teams performance.

[T4E]

Souness was more like a lift attendant. We got on at the bottom and should have got off at the top. We didn't we dillied and dallied and waited until we were half way down again by which time he got out whilst lifting our wallet out of our arse pocket in the process!

If being pick-pocketed means being given circa £3m for something you've used up and are just about finished with, then I wish that would happen to us more often.

Souness parting shot was a decent lump of compo into our back pockets from the Geordies. Can't complain about that.

[Manc Rover]

Sam just been on SSN talking about possible play offs for the champions league and said "I'm dead against it, a team like Blackburn or Bolton could get into champions league by finishing 7th and would then find it very difficult to compete." He's actually spot on but to use us and Bolton as examples is a bit daft!

[S15]

Excellent, let the flood gates open.

I agree, but I bet I can think of one or two people who will use this as ammunition against him, and how dare he use us and Bolton in the same sentence.