[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[unluckymorton]

Sam just been on SSN talking about possible play offs for the champions league and said "I'm dead against it, a team like Blackburn or Bolton could get into champions league by finishing 7th and would then find it very difficult to compete." He's actually spot on but to use us and Bolton as examples is a bit daft!

He gets slated for having no ambition then gets slated for having ambition. I'm afraid the fella can't do anything right in some peoples eyes...

[Hughesy]

a team like Blackburn or Bolton could get into champions league by finishing 7th and would then find it very difficult to compete." He's actually spot on but to use us and Bolton as examples is a bit daft!

Abit daft why? We have been there and he had Bolton there too....Using Burnley as an example would have been daft!

He gets slated for having no ambition then gets slated for having ambition. I'm afraid the fella can't do anything right in some peoples eyes...

Exactlyt morton....nothing wrong with having the ambition to mention us finishing 7th....he's simply pointing out that if we got in the Champs league we would struggle to compete against the likes of Real Madrid & Barca - whats wrong with that?!

[unluckymorton]

A bit of misconstruction of the facts here lads.

There is no budgetting to finish anywhere. The club will put as much money to the manager as is possible. They don't say to Sam "here's enough money to finish 17th this season". JW simply uses the wage bill to make a general judgement of success - as he sees it. In his opinion, if we have the tenth highest wage bill, then anything higher than tenth place finish is a tick, - a plus. Anything less than a tenth place finish, is in his words a minus.

Don't get carried away the idea that the club aim for a final league position.

Of course we budget for a final league position, it's a football clubs version of a business plan. Every season we will aim for a certain position that will reflect income from the league. That will be taken into consideration with regards to what transfer funds will be available, what percentage of debt will be paid and which contracts will be renewed, and of course which players we will be forced to sell to keep out heads above water. The only other option to generate cash is to aim for cup runs... you may as well just take what we have to the bookies and hope for the best.

The final league position is a major income for a club of our size, if we finish 11th or 12th this season it will be a huge bonus financially and hopefully the plan will be for us to improve on that next season, with Sam's comments on SkySports News this morning tell me that he will be aiming higher next season after a season of consolidation this season.

[Hughesy]

I think this season is very big in outlining our future over the next few seasons.

We budgetted for 13th....Almost £800k is the prize money per place, so a 10th place finish would earn us an extra £2.4m (ish). We had a good cup run too, so not sure if we recieved anything more than planned......

We have shifted one of our biggest earners (Benni) & recieved £2m+ for him.

In the summer we have 3 out of contract - Reid (big wages), Hoilett (Good Prospect) & Pedersen (Bigger wages)....so key decisions need making there.

We then have 12 midfielders so we will need to decide on a much smaller midfield going forward - Liganzi, Hoilett, Diouf, MGP, Reid, Grella, Andrews, NZonzi, Dunn, Emerton, Salgado, Basturk.....which will hopefully see us get rid of Andrews, Reid & maybe 2 others.

We then also have Roberts & Zurab who are eating wages for nothing....The £3m from the trust this summer could help us in a big way ontop of all the other key decisions above that need making!

[unluckymorton]

Exactlyt morton....nothing wrong with having the ambition to mention us finishing 7th....he's simply pointing out that if we got in the Champs league we would struggle to compete against the likes of Real Madrid & Barca - whats wrong with that?!

How people can slate Sam all season for being negative then laugh at the though of us challenging for Europe is beyond me!

Our club is extremely stable compared to most around us so given time Sam can build a strong squad and climb the table. Europe would be embarrassing for us at this moment in time but once our squad has worked together for a couple of years and the young lads we have recently signed start to mature there's no reason why we can't move up the table and challenge for Europe.

We can't give Sam the funds so we must give him time, and us as supporters should give him the support he needs to push the team on. Booing Sam in general, his decisions and booing certain players will not help the lads on the pitch. What we need is solidarity so let's stick together with the manager and support our club!

Even GAV is paying a compliment earlier in this thread! Good man GAV!

[Gav]

Sam just been on SSN talking about possible play offs for the champions league and said "I'm dead against it, a team like Blackburn or Bolton could get into champions league by finishing 7th and would then find it very difficult to compete." He's actually spot on but to use us and Bolton as examples is a bit daft!

That’s like saying don’t enter the FA Cup of league cup if you’re a lower league team, because you’ve no chance of winning it. I can understand the devaluing the competition stance,l but not that teams like us and Bolton can’t compete.

Sometimes you need to look at the bigger picture, such as 250k a point in the group stages

[Majiball]

Christ, we couldn't compete even when we won the league.

I'm still pondering whether I like the idea or not, but it would certainly add something to the league.

Even if we only made the group stage. which is possible but not easy as Everton found out, then we'd have more money than JW would know what to do with.

[Manc Rover]

Abit daft why? We have been there and he had Bolton there too....Using Burnley as an example would have been daft!

Exactlyt morton....nothing wrong with having the ambition to mention us finishing 7th....he's simply pointing out that if we got in the Champs league we would struggle to compete against the likes of Real Madrid & Barca - whats wrong with that?!

Wasn't intending to slate him, I just found it strange to be talking about us as an example, that's all!

[Hughesy]

Taken from Wiki on the champs league cash....

UEFA awards €3 million to each team that qualifies for the UEFA Champions League, plus €2.4 million for participating in the Group stage. A Group stage win is worth €600,000 and a draw is worth €300,000.

Then you have TV money on top. So we have £5m even if we lose all the games, and thats before we get a cut of TV money, tickets etc!

[Gav]

Taken from Wiki on the champs league cash....

UEFA awards €3 million to each team that qualifies for the UEFA Champions League, plus €2.4 million for participating in the Group stage. A Group stage win is worth €600,000 and a draw is worth €300,000.

Then you have TV money on top. So we have £5m even if we lose all the games, and thats before we get a cut of TV money, tickets etc!

Which is why the managers comments seem strange to me.

[Majiball]

I can only assume that Sam's worried about the beatings away from home. We don't travel well even to the likes of Chlesea, so what would the score be if we had to travel to say Italy or the such.

[Hughesy]

I can only assume that Sam's worried about the beatings away from home. We don't travel well even to the likes of Chlesea, so what would the score be if we had to travel to say Italy or the such.

I wouldnt be too bothered if we qualified & lost to Milan 5-0 if it meant we got a weekend on the p!ss in Milan!

[unluckymorton]

I can only assume that Sam's worried about the beatings away from home. We don't travel well even to the likes of Chlesea, so what would the score be if we had to travel to say Italy or the such.

Who travels well to Chelsea? And who will be in a fit state to take the game in when we get another European tour going?

A couple of day's away like I had for the Feyenoord game is just what I need.

[Gav]

We can't give Sam the funds so we must give him time, and us as supporters should give him the support he needs to push the team on. Booing Sam in general, his decisions and booing certain players will not help the lads on the pitch. What we need is solidarity so let's stick together with the manager and support our club!

Even GAV is paying a compliment earlier in this thread! Good man GAV!

Just add that I'd never go to Ewood and boo the manager or players, just don't see the point, even though I'm not happy with whats being served up.

The manager isn't all bad, hes in reality working with one hand tied behind his back due to financial restrictions placed upon him. I like his transfer policy, and his approach in bringing younger players to the club.

What I don’t like........Boring now I know

[PAFELL]

Christ, we couldn't compete even when we won the league.

I'm still pondering whether I like the idea or not, but it would certainly add something to the league.

Even if we only made the group stage. which is possible but not easy as Everton found out, then we'd have more money than JW would know what to do with.

Gives something more to play for, instead of just being also rans. 3 teams going down - Rovers must avoid being one of them. The top 3, which rovers have no chance of getting into as yet. Leaves 14 other teams wanting to battle it out to get into the 4,5,6,7 spots for play off games. If Rovers were able to get that top4 spot and get into the champions league, players / managers would be interested in coming to rovers. Not to mention putting the club on the map, which may interest potential investors. No I am all for this idea - cannot see it happening though - but anything to make competition more interesting.

If the lower leagues can have play offs for promotion, why can the premier league not have simular? Did not Rovers come up via the play offs? Do we complain that is how we got promoted or are we just thankful it happened?

I just cannot fathom Sam or anybody else coming out with the club would be embarrassed etc if we played in Europe. That is like saying to any team that is near to promotion to not bother in case they are embarrassed playing in a higher league. A club should do all it can to better itself, get promoted and try and do the best you can. It is better to try and fail than not try at all.

[Manc Rover]

Gives something more to play for, instead of just being also rans. 3 teams going down - Rovers must avoid being one of them. The top 3, which rovers have no chance of getting into as yet. Leaves 14 other teams wanting to battle it out to get into the 4,5,6,7 spots for play off games. If Rovers were able to get that top4 spot and get into the champions league, players / managers would be interested in coming to rovers. Not to mention putting the club on the map, which may interest potential investors. No I am all for this idea - cannot see it happening though - but anything to make competition more interesting.

If the lower leagues can have play offs for promotion, why can the premier league not have simular? Did not Rovers come up via the play offs? Do we complain that is how we got promoted or are we just thankful it happened?

I just cannot fathom Sam or anybody else coming out with the club would be embarrassed etc if we played in Europe. That is like saying to any team that is near to promotion to not bother in case they are embarrassed playing in a higher league. A club should do all it can to better itself, get promoted and try and do the best you can. It is better to try and fail than not try at all.

The champions league qualification status has already ruined e.g. the fa cup/carling cup because big clubs see finishing 4th as good enough. What would happen if e.g. Fulham were 9th with a chance of finishing 7th to get in through the back door? They would completely disregard our cup competitions, thats what! Football has been ruined enough in this country without another half baked pointless idea!

[CrazyIvan]

I can understand Sam's point. You get into the Champions League after playing 2 or 3 extra games at the end of the previous season only to face the qualifying round(s) first. So you get through that (or them if there is more than one), you have to then play an extra 6 games in the group stage with the same size squad as we've had before plus all the cup games, and the Premier League isn't going to get easier. Add the travel and the extra wear and tear on the side and what is the likely result? A season in the sun so to speak and a fight against relegation because the first teamers haven't been able to get enough rest in the off-season and have played more games than the teams around them so are likely to be much more jaded. No manager is going to put out a weakened side in the Champions League are they?

Having said all that, getting there and the financial rewards would be nice. If, somehow, Sam was able to push us into the Champions League two seasons on the bounce and have a good run in that competition, i.e. get out of the group stage, then it would be a much larger benefit to the side in terms of money and an enhanced image for the club.

I can't see it happening unless UEFA ok it either and I'm not sure they would.

[unluckymorton]

I can understand Sam's point. You get into the Champions League after playing 2 or 3 extra games at the end of the previous season only to face the qualifying round(s) first. So you get through that (or them if there is more than one), you have to then play an extra 6 games in the group stage with the same size squad as we've had before plus all the cup games, and the Premier League isn't going to get easier. Add the travel and the extra wear and tear on the side and what is the likely result? A season in the sun so to speak and a fight against relegation because the first teamers haven't been able to get enough rest in the off-season and have played more games than the teams around them so are likely to be much more jaded. No manager is going to put out a weakened side in the Champions League are they?

Having said all that, getting there and the financial rewards would be nice. If, somehow, Sam was able to push us into the Champions League two seasons on the bounce and have a good run in that competition, i.e. get out of the group stage, then it would be a much larger benefit to the side in terms of money and an enhanced image for the club.

I can't see it happening unless UEFA ok it either and I'm not sure they would.

I agree with your points, but we would find it easier to build a deeper squad if European football was achieved. However, lets not get carried away with all this, we are a mid table club hoping for improvement next season, Sam made a valid point this morning and that's about it. we're far from Europe at the moment and have a lot of hard work to do before we are anywhere near achieving that.

[Hughesy]

I agree with your points, but we would find it easier to build a deeper squad if European football was achieved. However, lets not get carried away with all this, we are a mid table club hoping for improvement next season, Sam made a valid point this morning and that's about it. we're far from Europe at the moment and have a lot of hard work to do before we are anywhere near achieving that.

Spot on - no point worrying about it....if it happens then so be it.

Lets just concentrate on finishing as high as we can this season, and then look to see how we can improve & trim the squad in the summer.

[unluckymorton]

Spot on - no point worrying about it....if it happens then so be it.

Lets just concentrate on finishing as high as we can this season, and then look to see how we can improve & trim the squad in the summer.

And of course getting behind the manager to show him our support, especially on Sunday against Bolton.

[unluckymorton]

When unrealistic targets are set you set yourself up for disappointment. Let's see how much the manager has to spend in the Summer and look at realistic targets then. Squad-wise we're on a par with the likes of Fulham, Wham, Sunderland, etc. Realistically we are a top of the bottom half team, pretty much where we are now.

All that matters to me this season is that we stay well clear of relegation and beat Burnley at t'Turd.

Correct, but unrealistic targets? Word has it that our target this season is around the 13th position mark. We're not doing too badly, we're on course for that or better at this moment in time. Next season a couple of places higher will be a successful season. Anything from 8th to 12th is realistic for me with anything above 16th or 17th being acceptable! I'm far from a pessimist but survival comes first then we can build from that.

[TimmyJimmy]

Make the rule, qualify, take the money, send the Academy lads to play the matches Cushty. Use the money to strengthen the squad. You know it makes sense.

[PAFELL]

The champions league qualification status has already ruined e.g. the fa cup/carling cup because big clubs see finishing 4th as good enough. What would happen if e.g. Fulham were 9th with a chance of finishing 7th to get in through the back door? They would completely disregard our cup competitions, thats what! Football has been ruined enough in this country without another half baked pointless idea!

So having the same top 4 or 5 year in year out is good for football? That is what is happening now. Unless they scrap the whole champions league, which they will never do, football in this country will never get any better. Unless the clubs in mega debt are given some form of sanction until they get there debts in order, there will neve ever be a level playing field. They may as well scrap the whole prem league and just have 5 or 6 clubs compete against each other, everybody else, just use them as a cocconut shy. The situation as it is today is no goood for clubs like Rovers, the only competition Rovers are in these days, is survival, premiership survival.

[yoda]

So having the same top 4 or 5 year in year out is good for football? That is what is happening now. Unless they scrap the whole champions league, which they will never do, football in this country will never get any better. Unless the clubs in mega debt are given some form of sanction until they get there debts in order, there will neve ever be a level playing field. They may as well scrap the whole prem league and just have 5 or 6 clubs compete against each other, everybody else, just use them as a cocconut shy. The situation as it is today is no goood for clubs like Rovers, the only competition Rovers are in these days, is survival, premiership survival.

The clubs outside the top 4 have it their hands to change things if they want, 14 votes carries a resolution or change to the EPL, trouble is there are a few other clubs who would do anything to be a top 4 club and enjoy the benefits of the current structure, greed I think it is called.

The current top 4 view the rest as cannon fodder, some league!

[joey_big_nose]

The situation in the Premiership is utterly stupid. CL money has completely skewed an already pretty unbalanced league wide apart. The clubs that are already the riggest get tens of millions added to their bottom line.

Sad. Ultimately it is going to erode attendances outside the bgger teams, just as has happend in Scotland, Portugal, Holland where similar lack of competition has undercut the sport.