[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[Kelbo]

So a four man midfield which could include Andrews aganst a five man midfield of Chelsea, Arsenal etc??

I cant see it working, unless we get a quality CM and a pacy wide player!

[neekoy]

  On 06/07/2010 at 13:46, Fife Rover said:

Well said Sam! This is worthy of a read (especially by the anti-Sam brigade). Shows that he really does know his stuff.

"It was slightly easier because my players at Bolton and Blackburn were not playing 50 or 60 games in a season."

I don't really know if he should actually brag about that if he is lining himself up for Manager.

[DP]

"Big Kevin Davies as a lone striker, and Nolan just behind"

Before editing this is what it really said....

[ABBEY]

  On 07/07/2010 at 21:23, thenodrog said:

Dunno if you can remember it Abbs but you are actually advocating the long dead 4-2-4 formation.

Its better than watching negative aimless boot ...I know 4 people who are doing a waggy this year because of sam and his boring ways.d

[LeChuck]

  On 07/07/2010 at 17:57, ABBEY said:

4 4 2 all the way for me ,two wingers two strikers and attack.

Aye, because that's what all successful teams play nowadays.

Not a single team in the last eight of the World Cup played 4-4-2. Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool...nope.

It's the way we apply the 4-5-1 that has to change. We need our wide attacking midfielders to start getting into the box and start contributing goals. Dunn, if fit, is fine 'in the hole' - he can be relied on to be pushing double figures for goal scoring.

[ABBEY]

We don't need attacking midfielders...its booted over their heads! Ah well love to stop and chat but I've work to do now

[Billy Castell]

  On 08/07/2010 at 11:45, ABBEY said:

Its better than watching negative aimless boot ...I know 4 people who are doing a waggy this year because of sam and his boring ways.d

Tell them they can still support their club financially by buying a season ticket and posting it to me .

I agree with Le Chuck, its about how the 4-5-1 shapes up and is used. Since our midfield doesn't exactly have a player of Xavi's or Sneijder's calibre, we're limited on how the formation can be used in a pretty way. I would dread to see Andrews attempting to be like these players, and we probably need the extra central player because our players lack that quality.

[Majiball]

  On 08/07/2010 at 11:50, LeChuck said:

Aye, because that's what all successful teams play nowadays.

Not a single team in the last eight of the World Cup played 4-4-2. Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool...nope.

It's the way we apply the 4-5-1 that has to change. We need our wide attacking midfielders to start getting into the box and start contributing goals. Dunn, if fit, is fine 'in the hole' - he can be relied on to be pushing double figures for goal scoring.

Don't Chelsea play a 4-4-2 with a diamond at times?

[LeChuck]

  On 08/07/2010 at 12:44, Majiball said:

Don't Chelsea play a 4-4-2 with a diamond at times?

Ancelotti ditched that after the first few months because it was all too narrow, they played 4-3-3 for the rest of the season.

[chaddyrovers]

Does anybody know whether Big Sam has join up with the squad in Austria?

[Hannah]

  On 08/07/2010 at 19:12, chaddyrovers said:

Does anybody know whether Big Sam has join up with the squad in Austria?

He was on a plane there this morning as my Mum and Dad apparently were on the same plane as him!

[Commondore]

  On 08/07/2010 at 11:50, LeChuck said:

Aye, because that's what all successful teams play nowadays.

Not a single team in the last eight of the World Cup played 4-4-2. Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool...nope.

It's the way we apply the 4-5-1 that has to change. We need our wide attacking midfielders to start getting into the box and start contributing goals. Dunn, if fit, is fine 'in the hole' - he can be relied on to be pushing double figures for goal scoring.

Tottenham and Bayern Munich are prime examples of 4-4-2 being alive and well, although it is clear that it has lost it's place as the standard formation in Europe.

[LeChuck]

  On 08/07/2010 at 22:17, Commondore said:

Tottenham and Bayern Munich are prime examples of 4-4-2 being alive and well, although it is clear that it has lost it's place as the standard formation in Europe.

Bayern certainly don't play a normal 4-4-2, Robben plays as a wide striker on the right and Ribery is very advanced too.

I can't remember what formation they played to be honest, but are you sure it wasn't a 4-2-3-1? I can't see how else Ribery and Robben would fit in those positions otherwise.

Tottenham are a good example, I think Villa play it fairly regularly too. It can be done, but an athletic midfield is an absolute must to compensate for the lack of bodies - something those two have in common and we definitely don't.

[Commondore]

  On 08/07/2010 at 22:57, LeChuck said:

Bayern certainly don't play a normal 4-4-2, Robben plays as a wide striker on the right and Ribery is very advanced too.

I can't remember what formation they played to be honest, but are you sure it wasn't a 4-2-3-1? I can't see how else Ribery and Robben would fit in those positions otherwise.

Tottenham are a good example, I think Villa play it fairly regularly too. It can be done, but an athletic midfield is an absolute must to compensate for the lack of bodies - something those two have in common and we definitely don't.

I guess you can dispute what "normal" means, but the formation they used for the major part of the season was often cited as an offensive 4-4-2, which they were given fair credit for:

Butt

Lahm, Demichelis, van Buyten, Badstuber

Robben, van Bommel, Schweinsteiger, Riberý

Müller, Olic

...and yes, that is a very athletic midfield engine which we are far from being able to produce with the current squad. Yet another reason to look into the central midfield positions this summer.

[Bobby G]

Bayern tried playing 4-3-3 under van Gaal. He revolutionized their approach and almost bit the bullet for it, but as of the end of the season it was more of an advanced 4-4-2.

[MarkBRFC71]

  On 08/07/2010 at 11:50, LeChuck said:

Aye, because that's what all successful teams play nowadays.

Not a single team in the last eight of the World Cup played 4-4-2. Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool...nope.

It's the way we apply the 4-5-1 that has to change. We need our wide attacking midfielders to start getting into the box and start contributing goals. Dunn, if fit, is fine 'in the hole' - he can be relied on to be pushing double figures for goal scoring.

Didn't Uruguay play 4-4-2 with at first Suarez and Forlan, then latterly a 4-4-2 with Suarez and Cavani and Forlan as the tip of the midfield 4?

I'll give you that the rest didn't though.

There's nothing wrong with either formation - my beef with BFS is stubbornly sticking with it last season when it clearly didn't suit the players, particularly Kalinic. The same criticism can be levelled at Capello for rigidly sticking to 4-4-2 despite the fact everyone in the world could see playing a lone striker would suit the personnel much better.

It's all about picking whichever formation suits the available players - not stubbornly persisting with 'your' system when it clearly isn't effective. Something both BFS and Fabio are guilty of.

[Majiball]

  On 08/07/2010 at 14:25, LeChuck said:

Ancelotti ditched that after the first few months because it was all too narrow, they played 4-3-3 for the rest of the season.

They were still top of the league playing that way, it can still work at the top end of the game. There's still a bit of debate amongst Chelsea fans as to whether they still play that way or not at times during matches.

The debate over how England or any top team should play is irrelevant, its simple and always has been. Play the formation that is best suited to the positions your players thrive in.

[dave birch]

  On 09/07/2010 at 00:39, Commondore said:

I guess you can dispute what "normal" means, but the formation they used for the major part of the season was often cited as an offensive 4-4-2, which they were given fair credit for:

Butt

Lahm, Demichelis, van Buyten, Badstuber

Robben, van Bommel, Schweinsteiger, Riberý

Müller, Olic

...and yes, that is a very athletic midfield engine which we are far from being able to produce with the current squad. Yet another reason to look into the central midfield positions this summer.

Robben pops up in all sorts of places. One minute on the right, the next on the left. Bit of a cat at times, but a good footballer

Ribery (overrated IMO) does pretty much the same.

Bayern played some really attractive football last season.

[Hughesy]

  On 09/07/2010 at 08:10, MarkBRFC71 said:

There's nothing wrong with either formation - my beef with BFS is stubbornly sticking with it last season when it clearly didn't suit the players, particularly Kalinic.

It's all about picking whichever formation suits the available players - not stubbornly persisting with 'your' system when it clearly isn't effective. Something both BFS and Fabio are guilty of.

But we played 4-5-1/ 4-3-3 because we dont have the players to play 4-4-2....you just answered your own 'best suits the players' stance.

Dunn scored 10 so had to be accomdated, but he isnt good enough in a 2 man centre midfield, especially if its alongside Keith, he is much better in the hole.

[John]

  On 09/07/2010 at 08:10, MarkBRFC71 said:

There's nothing wrong with either formation - my beef with BFS is stubbornly sticking with it last season when it clearly didn't suit the players, particularly Kalinic. The same criticism can be levelled at Capello for rigidly sticking to 4-4-2 despite the fact everyone in the world could see playing a lone striker would suit the personnel much better.

It's all about picking whichever formation suits the available players - not stubbornly persisting with 'your' system when it clearly isn't effective. Something both BFS and Fabio are guilty of.

Last season, Sam was getting results by stubbornly persisting with this system – presumably, if we were more flexible, you think we could have finished higher than 10th in the league?

[Majiball]

The main issue with the way we played last season is not the formation, but the way it was implemented. the space between our midfield and frontman was immense, when that was considered with the mobility and pace of our midfield in getting up to support him. Well it always came back.

For me we need to be a bit smarter with the ball this year, have some patience before playing it forward and allowing the midfield some time to get up and support the frontman. Last year we played 2-3 short passes before launching it, Dunn, Keith, Gamst, Diouf et al are all relatively slow these days and with at least a 2 v 1 against the frontman it's a losing battle.

[DanLad]

  On 09/07/2010 at 09:07, Majiball said:

The main issue with the way we played last season is not the formation, but the way it was implemented. the space between our midfield and frontman was immense, when that was considered with the mobility and pace of our midfield in getting up to support him. Well it always came back.

For me we need to be a bit smarter with the ball this year, have some patience before playing it forward and allowing the midfield some time to get up and support the frontman. Last year we played 2-3 short passes before launching it, Dunn, Keith, Gamst, Diouf et al are all relatively slow these days and with at least a 2 v 1 against the frontman it's a losing battle.

I agree that our 4-5-1, or variant, isn't a potent attacking force as we don't have the players to support.

If you think that Sam will advocate midfielders pushing on in advance of the ball being knocked forward I think you've misjudged the man. He'll never approve of that. He's not keen on players running 'beyond' the ball, from what I've seen. That, coupled with our slow midfield, will make for another season of grinding out results.

We've little pace to support and little pace over the top. The opposition can squeeze up to condense play, and we're still to slow to support the front man. It's a thankless task playing as a forward in the current system, IMHO.

Strange as it may sound I think we're desperate for a Ricardo Gardner in his prime!

[waggy]

l@rdarse for england

[imy9]

  On 09/07/2010 at 10:10, waggy said:

l@rdarse for england

W@ggy for Rovers ?? Or this never going to happen?

[unluckymorton]

  On 09/07/2010 at 10:10, waggy said:

l@rdarse for england

Well done wags, a week after the FA confirm that Capello will lead England into Euro 2012.