[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[RevidgeBlue]

So, Sam's way of playing the lone striker is a far more liquid way of playing, but you have to have the right type of player to play those tactics. At present we don't have them. There's no future, at the top level, with 4-4-2.

I have never thought that 4-5-1 works either unless you have a truly exceptional striker up top. Otherwise you lose possession immediately and the ball is always coming straight back at you.

[Hughesy]

Well, I hope Sam is enjoying his golfing break in Portugal.

I must say if the previous manager had done the same at this stage of preseason the messageboard would be in meltdown

Oh come on - a couple of days, with lots of other 'connected' people who will no doubt be also talking business amongst them too. He did it last season and we hit 10th - whats the problem?

Hardly going to learn anything watching his squad doing fitness work against Fleetwood is he?!

[RevidgeBlue]

The previous manager was shyte at his job though.

Whether you like him or not, Sam is one of the best Premier League managers around - he knows what is effective and how to get results.

I think its good for the manager not to always to be with the players - too much time of anyone and people become sick of each other.

Exactly the reaction I'm talking about. It's Sam so it's o.k.

Last season has gone now, Sam is only as good as his results this season and I wouldn't have thought that was the right way to go about pre season preparations myself but obviously if results turn out to be good then any concerns are unfounded.

[John]

Exactly the reaction I'm talking about. It's Sam so it's o.k.

Last season has gone now, Sam is only as good as his results this season and I wouldn't have thought that was the right way to go about pre season preparations myself but obviously if results turn out to be good then any concerns are unfounded.

Last season when he guided us to 10th in the league. And the season before when he saved us from relegation.

Of course with £2.5 million to spend let's hope (or expect) we are sniffing around those champions league places

You are missing the point, Sam is an experienced manager who is very good at winning football matches - its obviously up to you and judge him on this season alone if you really want however he is the best possible manager for our club. Of course he is not exempt from critism but I happen to think he is a top manager.

Like Sparky, we will only realise how good he is, when he is gone....

[broadsword]

Of course with £2.5 million to spend let's hope (or expect) we are sniffing around those champions league places.

:lol:

Put that copydex down mate, you'll go blind!

[RibbleValleyRover]

The problem Griz is that we have the players to maybe get a 3-5-2 to work, but can you see them being starters or playing often? Emerton for example would be perfect in a 3-5-2 role as a wing back, his energy and work-rate is immense and if we were to play a 3-5-2 he would be my choice at right wing back. But let's face it its going to be Salgado that starts, big wage earner, good pedigree and Sam will feel he has to play him. But he is ageing, has less pace and energy than Emo and i feel there is a good chance he would get slaughtered under this system.

The same applies to other players like Pedersen and some others. Overall i just know roughly what players that Sam will play in this formation and its got disaster written all over it imo.

[John]

:lol:

Put that copydex down mate, you'll go blind!

Hopefully you realise I was being sarcastic.....?

[broadsword]

No, I didn't, sorry.

[Exiled_Rover]

What about Hoillett? He has the pace on the right, if not the brain.

As a wing back? Oh dear.

[67splitscreen]

Some good tactical post since I asked the question, about personnel, I agree that the system does seem to have been adopted by some of the international sides and with some success.

I may be wrong, not checked, the teams that did adopt the system to my recollection did not score to many goals, with are current strikers I can't see us being any different.

I'm sure we will no for definite what's in Sam's mind in Auss, when the rest of the worldie's join up.

With the current squad we are sparse of numbers in what has been called the three key areas.

No back up for Emerton, or Olsson losing either would mean a change of formation, baring in mind we would have two strikers on the park could cause us big problems in the MF.

The holding player N'Zonzi, only option Grella, and we all no what he's availability is like, meaning the same result.

I suppose when you look at the options with regard systems we don't actually the personnel that blends well with any of the them.

[LeChuck]

I have never thought that 4-5-1 works either unless you have a truly exceptional striker up top. Otherwise you lose possession immediately and the ball is always coming straight back at you.

Oddly the exact opposite is true. You can get away with a decidedly average striker as long as the three attacking midfielders behind are good.

In Moyes' early days at Everton, he played Marcus Bent as a lone striker but still placed well in the league. We finished tenth last year despite not really have a striker to rely on. Sam did it with Davies at Bolton.

Look at the World Cup...Van Persie was average-at-best for the Dutch, but because the three behind him were great it didn't matter. David Villa disappeared from the final two Spanish games when he was moved there instead of Torres.

The striker role is quickly become a thankless task in some systems.

[den]

Oddly the exact opposite is true. You can get away with a decidedly average striker as long as the three attacking midfielders behind are good.

In Moyes' early days at Everton, he played Marcus Bent as a lone striker but still placed well in the league. We finished tenth last year despite not really have a striker to rely on. Sam did it with Davies at Bolton.

Look at the World Cup...Van Persie was average-at-best for the Dutch, but because the three behind him were great it didn't matter. David Villa disappeared from the final two Spanish games when he was moved there instead of Torres.

The striker role is quickly become a thankless task in some systems.

Decidedly average strikers - Van Persie, David Villa and Torres? I understand what you are trying to say LC, but these players, although not scoring goals from the lone striker role, still have the quality of movement and pace, that brought about openings for others to benefit from. Kevin Davies played the lone striker role for Bolton very well, because he did hold the ball up well.

My point is that this system is far superior to 4-4-2 at the highest level and the lone striker is very important to it. Your post makes it sound like the front man doesn't matter.

[thenodrog]

Decidedly average strikers - Van Persie, David Villa and Torres? I understand what you are trying to say LC, but these players, although not scoring goals from the lone striker role, still have the quality of movement and pace, that brought about openings for others to benefit from. Kevin Davies played the lone striker role for Bolton very well, because he did hold the ball up well.

Maybe a strong pointer as to why SA wants rid of Jason Roberts.

As for tactics why tinker? Once we'd introduced a few younger players after Christmas the formation we used worked quite well.

[Steve Moss]

As for tactics why tinker? Once we'd introduced a few younger players after Christmas the formation we used worked quite well.

Maybe its not a matter of a change in tactics, but merely adding another arrow to the Rovers tactical quiver. We've done well with 4-5-1 (or whatever permutation Sam used last season). The squad is staying intact so the 'expertise' to work last year's system is still there. The 3-5-2 may simply be an alternative system that Sam intends trot out from time to time to confound certain opponents (bottom half?) who train for facing Rovers in a 4-5-1. The confusion this might cause would be of great benefit to us in the first half.

Sam has always said we need to improve our away performances. I can see a well drilled Rovers playing 3-5-2 as being more attacking and more likely to pick up points against bottom half teams. I would be very cautious about trying it out against the likes of Arsenal, however.

And I'd much rather practice and evaluate a new system in the pre-season over a half dozen or more games, then in the regular season where we could give up desperately needed points as a result of confusion amongst our own players. All in all, I am pleased Sam is experimenting, rather than resting on past laurels.

[Bobby G]

1 striker up front is a difficult formation to pull off if the opposition is half decent, unless you have the right midfielders to pitch in with a lot of work and goals. Just watch the WC again.

[braddock]

Just watch the WC again.

dear god no

[Florida Rover]

Some good tactical post since I asked the question, about personnel, I agree that the system does seem to have been adopted by some of the international sides and with some success.

I may be wrong, not checked, the teams that did adopt the system to my recollection did not score to many goals, with are current strikers I can't see us being any different.

Your memory doesn't fail you as far as goals scored.Three teams at WC played with 3 at the back exclusively

1.Mexico who scored 4 goals in 4 games (1-1,2-0,0-1,1-3)

2.Chile who scored 3 goals in 4 games (1-0,1-0,1-2,0-3)

3.New Zealand 2 goals in 3 games (1-1,1-1,0-0)

Uruguay did play with three at the back in their opener which was the ONLY match they did not score.When they shifted to a variety of formation in their following games (mostly 4-3-1-2) when they scored 11 goals in 7 matches.

In Serie A ,I beleive Genoa played with 3 at the back for alot of the season as well as Lazio.Genoa scored 57 and allowed 61 in 38 league games while Lazio scored 39 and allowed 43.Obviuosly I would like our chances if we scored 57 but last year we scored 41 and gave up 55 so we shall see.I'm not convince that we will play with 3 at the back for 38 league games but we shall see.

[Doaksie]

Your memory doesn't fail you as far as goals scored.Three teams at WC played with 3 at the back exclusively

1.Mexico who scored 4 goals in 4 games (1-1,2-0,0-1,1-3)

2.Chile who scored 3 goals in 4 games (1-0,1-0,1-2,0-3)

3.New Zealand 2 goals in 3 games (1-1,1-1,0-0)

Uruguay did play with three at the back in their opener which was the ONLY match they did not score.When they shifted to a variety of formation in their following games (mostly 4-3-1-2) when they scored 11 goals in 7 matches.

In Serie A ,I beleive Genoa played with 3 at the back for alot of the season as well as Lazio.Genoa scored 57 and allowed 61 in 38 league games while Lazio scored 39 and allowed 43.Obviuosly I would like our chances if we scored 57 but last year we scored 41 and gave up 55 so we shall see.I'm not convince that we will play with 3 at the back for 38 league games but we shall see.

Kudos for the research FR. Yous Americans love a good stat.

I would tend to agree. It will be a nice alternative to have the option of various formations, but I just cannot see us playing 3-5-2 for an entire season.

[Miker]

Only reason I can see Sam employing a 3-5-2 is the fact that we have the best options in that central defensive area, as well as the wingback area and it makes sense to try and tailor a formation around your best players. Nelsen, Samba, Givet, Jones(central); Olsson, Chimbonda(left); Salgado, Emerton, Jacobsen(right).

We seem to have a lot of youngsters coming through that are able to do a good job in our defence as well, which means they will get more opportunities to play in that system.

Comparing our defence to our midfielders and strikers though makes you realise just how much of a worry those areas are!

[LeChuck]

Surely to play 3-5-2 we'd have to sign two strikers this summer - three if Roberts goes?

Maybe it would be more of a 3-6-1 formation? That's exactly my favourite formation of all time, when used by the Brazilians around 2002...Ronaldinho and Rivaldo playing free roles behind Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos and Cafu as wing backs, Gilberto Silva sat in front of the defence. Cracking stuff. I can't remember the centre backs, but it was something like...

GK

Junior Lucio Edmilson

Cafu ......... Gilberto ....... Carlos

Kleberson

Ronaldinho ..... Rivaldo

Ronaldo

(It makes a pretty good formation on football manager if you want to try something different)

Of course, we hardly have the players to play it in that way! Maybe Dunn and Assulin behind Kalinic, N'Zonzi in front of the defence.

Robinson

Samba Nelsen Givet

Emerton ....... N'Zonzi ....... Olsson

Pedersen

Assulin ........ Dunn

Kalinic

I think the beauty of this formation is that the two attacking midfielders get a lot of freedom, able to pull wide where necessary to make sure things don't get too narrow.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Salgado will play ahead of Emerton so i don't even know why Sam is looking at this formation. It won't work with Salgado as a wing back, it won't work with Pedersen as a central midfielder either.

[den]

Salgado will play ahead of Emerton so i don't even know why Sam is looking at this formation. It won't work with Salgado as a wing back, it won't work with Pedersen as a central midfielder either.

3 at the back wont work - full stop.

Not for us anyway. To play that, you need world class defenders.

[Blue blood]

If we are going with the wingback formation, then we really do need to sort out the transfer window. On paper (bar Roberts) it seems quite good, and will certainly get the best out of Emerton, Dunn, N'Zonzi and our excellent quartet of centre backs, but I have massive reservations over who fills in the wing back positions if either Emo or Olsson are injured.

Pedersen has the engine but not the pace, and not sure how much of an engine Salgado has. I guess at a push Chimbonda could do it, but realistically we need cover for them, as well as a new striker, and arguably cover for Dunn and a top quality cm (unrealistic to get any, or more than one imo.) But we'd most definately need cover as at least with cm, we have players who could slot in there - Grella, Andrews.

Thinking on it, not sure whether we'd need a few new faces if we did play 4-4-2, 4-5-1. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't. We'd still need another striker, I'd have reservations over who plays on the right, and the need for another cm and cover for Dunn is still as necessary.

[MarkBRFC71]

Oddly the exact opposite is true. You can get away with a decidedly average striker as long as the three attacking midfielders behind are good.

In Moyes' early days at Everton, he played Marcus Bent as a lone striker but still placed well in the league. We finished tenth last year despite not really have a striker to rely on. Sam did it with Davies at Bolton.

Look at the World Cup...Van Persie was average-at-best for the Dutch, but because the three behind him were great it didn't matter. David Villa disappeared from the final two Spanish games when he was moved there instead of Torres.

The striker role is quickly become a thankless task in some systems.

I think you're both right. It can work with an exceptional striker, or with a poor striker and good supporting players. Ideally you'd have both.

Unfortunately Rovers have neither a top striker, nor good supporting players - or crucially the funds to buy them. Based on that I can see why BFS is experimenting with the 3-5-2. It seems the ideal formation given the current personnel.

[Majiball]

Sam speaking out yet again. This time Blatter should be embarrassed about the world cup and not discussing goal line technology, its a disgrace.

Here's a thought Sam, find some ruddy players, and real players please.