[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[Amo]

Certainly no Anti-Sam agenda from me, unless that's what any modicum of criticism counts for these days? He's done a good job here and is well suited to a club of our capacity, but hailing him as the 'Second Coming' is crazy talk. I also want us to rely a little less on the methodical long-ball game. Make use of it when the opportunity is there, because otherwise it's a cheap way to concede possession and put as on the backfoot. I refuse to accept these players can't keep the ball for five minutes.

[thenodrog]

....... but I have realised there is and will always be an entrenched anti-Sam camp, fair enough, but a lot seem totally blind to the job he's done.

Sheep. Flock mentality and can't think for themselves.

[patrickvalery]

It's not the only way forward. When you have limited resources when we have you have to pick the best players available to you for a small price................................................................

Sam's way might not be the only way but if you're on a budget and bereft of pace and creativity in your side it's sure as hell the most effective way, as his record shows.

Spot on. Some would argue his signings have been brought in to fit his desired style of football. But they were essentially brought in to fit the style of football available to him, namely the playing staff and their respective abilities, which he inherited. He wasn't given an open cheque book to revamp the side and create a new footballing ethos at the club.

His methods thus far at Rovers haven't been pretty. But by god they have been effective. You cannot knock him for that. Whether he is a truly brilliant coach / manager is up for debate. Simply because he hasn't had a crack at a big job. Newcastle obviously being the biggest, but they seem to exist in a parallel universe to most other clubs. Too much in house fighting at board room level, coupled with the evntual change in ownership and expectations of the 2nd most fickle bunch of fans behind Spurs, makes it hard to judge how successful he may have been there.

His approach to football and playing to your strenghts makes me wonder if he might have made a go of the England job. Again, it might not have pleased the purists in terms of style, but it might just have made us more competetive in the bigger tournaments. I guess we'll never know.

[thenodrog]

His approach to football and playing to your strenghts makes me wonder if he might have made a go of the England job. Again, it might not have pleased the purists in terms of style, but it might just have made us more competetive in the bigger tournaments. I guess we'll never know.

I know for certain he'd have done better than the current one and the one before him. As with Brian Clough the FA didn't appoint on ability, they appointed on public image as peddled by the red tops and what they stupidly thought were safe hands. It's bloody obvious that they even saw a future role for Stuart Pearce when they made him Capello's lap-dog. At least that is unlikely to happen now.

btw Pearce is never a manager, in fact he's not bright enough to find his arse with both hands but after the humiliating crap he's taken in public I'd like Pearce to give the eytie a right old bang on the nose.

[tony gale's mic]

I don't think he would've done well as England boss. His technical abilities may well have been suited to the job; though, as much as i bemoan all the criticism of his Rovers tactics, he would have to change them as England manager. However he would have had no prior experience of handling such big name footballers and I don't think, given his public image and reputation, a lot of the big name players would be happy to play for him.

Let's not forget that although McLaren was woeful as England boss, both before and after his tenure as manager he's shown he's hardly a mug and is probably Sam's equal at club level given what he's just done with FC Twente.

[patrickvalery]

I know for certain he'd have done better than the current one and the one before him. As with Brian Clough the FA didn't appoint on ability, they appointed on public image as peddled by the red tops and what they stupidly thought were safe hands. It's bloody obvious that they even saw a future role for Stuart Pearce when they made him Capello's lap-dog. At least that is unlikely to happen now.

btw Pearce is never a manager, in fact he's not bright enough to find his arse with both hands but after the humiliating crap he's taken in public I'd like Pearce to give the eytie a right old bang on the nose.

I think you're probably right Gordon. The Clough debacle will always be aimed at the FA. But in Capello they thought they had found themselves a bit of the best of both worlds. A manager who rules with an iron fist, but also blessed with the continental name to add a bit of verve to proceedings.

Maybe Sam would have fared better, maybe not. I suspect the root cause of Englands failures is in the expectant nature of our general public. It may have been better for the country if we had gone through the wilderness after Taylor. Given us a chance to properly address the situation from top to bottom and lowered the sky high expectations of the bulldog breed England fan.

[thenodrog]

Maybe Sam would have fared better, maybe not. I suspect the root cause of Englands failures is in the expectant nature of our general public.

Whipped up to a frenzy by the red tops. But surely patrick every country that have their name on the WC will have a very expectant public? The problem with our media this time is that it whipped up public interest when it was obvious that we hadn't a cat in hells chance compared to other years. I'll grant you the public and daft Jimmk2 swallowed every word hook,line and sinker but the intention can only have been to build em up to knock em down again?

[braddock]

Sheep. Flock mentality and can't think for themselves.

is that always what you think when people disagree with you?

just because i have an opinion on the quality of football i watch it doesn't mean that i'm simply repeating what others are saying. it's obvious for all to see.

[patrickvalery]

Whipped up to a frenzy by the red tops. But surely patrick every country that have their name on the WC will have a very expectant public? The problem with our media this time is that it whipped up public interest when it was obvious that we hadn't a cat in hells chance compared to other years. I'll grant you the public and daft Jimmk2 swallowed every word hook,line and sinker but the intention can only have been to build em up to knock em down again?

Perhaps so. But 66 was an age ago. I'm sure the Uruguayans didn't have any expectancy on the side to bring home the WC. You are right that the media do hype up our chances. I guess its fuelled by what we as a nation perceive to be the best league in the world being played in England. In reality its probably not the best anymore and even those who argue it is, have to admit its qualities are provided by foreign imports. Plus the media have a duty to sell their product. From papers to radio stations. Talksport were still agonisingly picking through the bones of the WC showing only yesterday. So its in their interest to build them up to knock them down. It provides longevity. You are correct that the knock on affect is to make the wider public (i'll refrain from repeating your example) expectant of what was actually a pretty ordinary England XI. This is what i eluded to in my previous post. A few years in the wilderness may have benefited the national side in terms of expectancy. However i suppose the flip side to that coin is the PL would most likely have dwindled away and there would be no money in the national game.

But the fear the side plays with undermines what ability we do have in certain areas. Whatever the cause of this may be, we will not suceed until its eradicated. I guess this is the million dollar question though. How do you get rid of it? Mr Murdoch won't overlook potential profits to aid our flailing England team.

Anyway, this conversation has moved away from Sam Allardyce and is probably better placed in the WC thread. Sorry about that.

[T4E]

Do the people saying 'results aside, does anyone honestly enjoy our style?' etc not remember the Arsenal game at the end of last season? Double over the trolls aside, that was my highlight of the year. We battered them, physically bullied, harrassed, haranged and roughed them right up. They bottled it and we won. It was fantastic to watch.

That's our style, and when it's implemented correctly it's something we should all be very proud of. We're northern, strong, robust, rough and ready. We should celebrate it and look to perfect it, not moan about it.

[patrickvalery]

Do the people saying 'results aside, does anyone honestly enjoy our style?' etc not remember the Arsenal game at the end of last season? Double over the trolls aside, that was my highlight of the year. We battered them, physically bullied, harrassed, haranged and roughed them right up. They bottled it and we won. It was fantastic to watch.

That's our style, and when it's implemented correctly it's something we should all be very proud of. We're northern, strong, robust, rough and ready. We should celebrate it and look to perfect it, not moan about it.

It was the same under Hughes too. I loved our bully boy tag. But sometimes with some members of this squad i don't feel they really embrace it. Plus the style is more direct than under Hughes. I heard someone say the other day on the radio that players will support the ugly football mentality so long as they are winning. But when it doesn't bring results they become disollusioned very quickly because they all believe they are good enough to play the 'proper' way. I guess this was proven towards the end of last season when you'd here senior pro's such as Dunn, Samba, Grella and Nelsen talking up this season and looking up the table instead of down. All seemed pretty quiet at the start of the campaign when results weren't so good. When we were getting reults under Hughes it became OK to use a bit of muscle. The same at Stoke. The team and Pulis get plaudits nowadays. But when they first came up they were labelled a pub team. I'm all for a bit of nastiness to our play. But it will never be accepted by most if we're not getting results.

[Commondore]

What a daft comment.

When Sam was touted for the England job before McClaren, he answered concerns about his style of play relating to the England team. He said he uses the tactics which gets the best results out of the players you have, implying that he would play more 'football' if he had top players. Pulis does the same as Sam, he plays a style of football which gets the best results out of his players. Given the relatively excellent league positions of both clubs last year, it's seem odd that you have picked their names out.

We have a ###### midfield so we don't pass the ball around in it much - makes perfect sense. If we had a talented midfield we'd see a different style of play. Many other teams use variations of the tactics we use. Villa play a very direct game with big men up front. Everton too.

If Sam wasn't producing the results then you could question the wisdom of his tactics, but at present they're doing the job. I don't think anyone will argue that they're pretty, but it works.

I find that very hard to believe. He signed (handpicked) close to 10 players for one season at Newcastle and still played the same way as he has always done.

I agree that our midfield is in it's weakest state since many years but, as I believe Topman said earlier, there is no way that these players shouldn't be able to pass the ball, on the ground, to each other without our chances of winning a football game evaporating.

I remain firmly convinced that the same results can be achieved with another brand of football than the one currently used.

[Kelbo]

I find that very hard to believe. He signed (handpicked) close to 10 players for one season at Newcastle and still played the same way as he has always done.

I agree that our midfield is in it's weakest state since many years but, as I believe Topman said earlier, there is no way that these players shouldn't be able to pass the ball, on the ground, to each other without our chances of winning a football game evaporating.

I remain firmly convinced that the same results can be achieved with another brand of football than the one currently used.

They should be able to pass a ball but they cant!!

Players who cant pass a football should not be playing at semi pro level let alone premiership, however, the higher the grade of football, the less options you have, the main crteria here is the players off the ball giving the man on the ball options, our style of football doesnt give us that, with limited options it becomes much more difficult.

[Majiball]

Really? I was strong but not that quick.... well maybe quickish but only in a straight line.

Anyway you've just described the perfect way forward ...... for a club in the lower divisions.

This is the Prem ffs Maj. Money doesn't talk it screams! Personally in the situation we've been in these past few years I'd bin the youth teams..... although no doubt this new ruling will make youth teamers more sought after.

So now we require X No. of home growns you'd bin the youth teams??? Interesting line of logic.

Certainly no Anti-Sam agenda from me, unless that's what any modicum of criticism counts for these days? He's done a good job here and is well suited to a club of our capacity, but hailing him as the 'Second Coming' is crazy talk. I also want us to rely a little less on the methodical long-ball game. Make use of it when the opportunity is there, because otherwise it's a cheap way to concede possession and put as on the backfoot. I refuse to accept these players can't keep the ball for five minutes.

Hear, Hear.

Sheep. Flock mentality and can't think for themselves.

Says the man who changes his socks once a year, its no wonder you despise larger groups of people the stench coming from your feet must mean they run like sheep.

They should be able to pass a ball but they cant!!

Players who cant pass a football should not be playing at semi pro level let alone premiership, however, the higher the grade of football, the less options you have, the main crteria here is the players off the ball giving the man on the ball options, our style of football doesnt give us that, with limited options it becomes much more difficult.

To have made it as far as they have IE to Elite level ( ) they must have had that ability they would never have made it without it. Our team no longer moves off the ball as it used to and its dire to see.

[MarkBRFC71]

They should be able to pass a ball but they cant!!

Players who cant pass a football should not be playing at semi pro level let alone premiership, however, the higher the grade of football, the less options you have, the main crteria here is the players off the ball giving the man on the ball options, our style of football doesnt give us that, with limited options it becomes much more difficult.

Of course they can pass a ball - they are professional footballers. It's down to the manager's footballing ethos - he plays percentage football (i.e. get the ball forward as quickly as possible, launch it into the danger area as much as possible, employ big players and aim every free-kick, throw-in, and corner 'into the mixer' - the aim being, under the law of averages/percentages that one or two times a game it might fall favourably for you and give you a goal-scoring chance). It got us to 10th and while it's as dull as watching paint dry, it can be effective and for a struggling team, particularly against a technically better side, is probably ideal.

If that was your favoured system, then surely you'd coach your players to play that way? Simply put, there's no need for pass and move type football Sam's reign so I imagine far less time is spent on those abilities in training, than say, at Arsenal where their ethos is entirely different (and yes, I appreciate that their players are better than ours too).

BFS employed the same system at Bolton and Newcastle, and would do if he ever (God forbid) got to manage England. That's a nightmare scenario for the national team and would set us back even further against the rest of Europe.

[thenodrog]

So now we require X No. of home growns you'd bin the youth teams??? Interesting line of logic.

Would you like to read my post again only this time a little slower Maj?

btw

re: the socks crack...... As far as humour is concerned I'm afraid you are bumping along on the bottom with Jimmk2.

[Mattyblue]

Do the people saying 'results aside, does anyone honestly enjoy our style?' etc not remember the Arsenal game at the end of last season? Double over the trolls aside, that was my highlight of the year. We battered them, physically bullied, harrassed, haranged and roughed them right up. They bottled it and we won. It was fantastic to watch.

That's our style, and when it's implemented correctly it's something we should all be very proud of. We're northern, strong, robust, rough and ready. We should celebrate it and look to perfect it, not moan about it.

You are spot on, towards the end of the season we played with an intensity and style very much like the Mark Hughes era. The 'hoofing' was nowhere near as evident as it was a few months previously.

[Majiball]

Really? I was strong but not that quick.... well maybe quickish but only in a straight line.

Anyway you've just described the perfect way forward ...... for a club in the lower divisions.

This is the Prem ffs Maj. Money doesn't talk it screams! Personally in the situation we've been in these past few years I'd bin the youth teams..... although no doubt this new ruling will make youth teamers more sought after.

I H A V E R E A D I T S L O W L Y

A N D I T S T I L L S A Y S Y O U

W O U L D H A V E B I N N E D T H E

Y O U T H.

:P

Just so you know Kish earns more than Rovers spend on their youth system, they even made cut backs on wages when they appointed Cannon.

I doubt the part-time coaches earn more than 10, max 15K a year, peanuts.

Don't sign this unneeded Iranian and divert his wages to the youth set-up!!!!!!

[RoyRover]

The standard of some of our players is so depressingly low that it makes it very difficult to play anything approaching attractive football. I'm not happy about it, but we play a brand of football that gives us the best chance of picking up points. However that doesn't excuse some of our players inability to pass the ball and keep hold of possession. There were games that I saw last year where I was literally screaming at the television because there were players who were just humping the ball up the field to no one in particular, or the ball was being passed to them and instead of holding on to it, they were happy just loft the ball forward. The lack of quality that we have in midfield and up front is worrying and will mean that we play the same way again this year.

[LDRover]

Do the people saying 'results aside, does anyone honestly enjoy our style?' etc not remember the Arsenal game at the end of last season? Double over the trolls aside, that was my highlight of the year. We battered them, physically bullied, harrassed, haranged and roughed them right up. They bottled it and we won. It was fantastic to watch.

That's our style, and when it's implemented correctly it's something we should all be very proud of. We're northern, strong, robust, rough and ready. We should celebrate it and look to perfect it, not moan about it.

Quite right. The problem is, Neil, that this 'us against the world mentality' has only just surfaced. We have rolled over and let our tummies be tickled far too often in recent years - in fact it's only the last couple of occasions when we've actually given the big 4 a game.

All too often we were beaten before a ball was kicked and then you'd hear the comments on how we're expected to compete with 'them' post match. I'll forgive the 11 in blue and white shirts anything if I can see the effort and commitment you allude to - it was the norm under Hughes IIRC.

[braddock]

Do the people saying 'results aside, does anyone honestly enjoy our style?' etc not remember the Arsenal game at the end of last season? Double over the trolls aside, that was my highlight of the year. We battered them, physically bullied, harrassed, haranged and roughed them right up. They bottled it and we won. It was fantastic to watch.

That's our style, and when it's implemented correctly it's something we should all be very proud of. We're northern, strong, robust, rough and ready. We should celebrate it and look to perfect it, not moan about it.

i agree that is our style, and there are certain games which are good to watch. but they are few and far between. there are so many games from this season just gone where i can't remember much that happened and that is unusual. all the games seemed to have blurred into one except about 5. i enjoyed the bully boy tag but that was because we were tough in the tackle AND played decent stuff. last seasons bad tackles were from diouf and they were downright disgusting and we rarely play great football, even when against teams who aren't as good as us.

[FourLaneBlue]

To be fair to Sam...it did seem that the better games were more likely towards the end of the season than at the start. This could suggest that we are improving not only in our results but also in our play in general. This was always going to take time after the Ince debacle.

The worry is that without a couple of new faces we are standing still. Those who stand still in football go backwards. Actually, with Derbyshire, Benni and Di Santo all having left with only Kalinic coming in...we have ourselves regressed. Other areas have been strengthened whether through purchases (N'zonzi, Givet) or youth making a mark (Olsson, Jones) but that has not helped us up front.

An injury to Kalinic and...dear me...

[koi]

Just heard Sam on 5 live moaning about the tax a player has to be pay!

[Majiball]

Whos who????

Sam Allardyce???

Victor Meldrew.

[LeChuck]

He's probably complaining from the point of view of trying to buy players...

Obviously it makes it harder for us to compete financially with some other countries it terms of wages.