[Archived] Sam Allardyce

[MCMC1875]

Good post Tris but I don't agree with this at all.

If Rovers do decide to get rid of Ince then I'm sure they'll want to ditch the rest of the League Two staff he's brought with him. I'm positive Mathias, Knox, Winterburn and any others that followed him from MK Dons would go. The only ones I can see surviving are that guy we got from Liverpool's scouting system, and possibly whoever came in as goalkeeping coach.

Bobby Mimms!

[Majiball]

Good post Tris but I don't agree with this at all.

If Rovers do decide to get rid of Ince then I'm sure they'll want to ditch the rest of the League Two staff he's brought with him. I'm positive Mathias, Knox, Winterburn and any others that followed him from MK Dons would go. The only ones I can see surviving are that guy we got from Liverpool's scouting system, and possibly whoever came in as goalkeeping coach.

If we didn't do that and expected a new man to come and work with whoever is already there, then I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of us being able to attact anyone of sufficient quality to drag us out of this mess. If Ince goes they all have to go and give us the chance of complete break and fresh start.

Completely agree if Ince goes the new guy will get shot. They are as much a part of the problem as Ince is.

I honestly think this is where the problem lies. Say we can Ince and his staff whats that gonna cost? Ince is on 1.5M a year is he not? so maybe 2-3M say 4M the lot. So next we need a new man, the available managers are hardly apeealling so we have to poach, whats that going to cost? Same again?

Sacking and replacing Ince could be very expensive and yes whilst we could lose millions by going down, its still a decision that cannot be taken lightly. The team does need strenghening how much will be left if hes canned? I don't envy JW.

[Wiggy]

I can't understand all this anti BFS business ( with one proviso). He is the absolute stand out candidate to keep us in this league. He knows the league inside out. He knows how to motivate players and get them to scrap for results. He has an uncanny knack of bringing in players who are off the radar and getting the most out of them ( Davies, Spit, Okocha etc.). He's used to a relatively small budget.His time at Newcastle must have made him hungry and with something to prove.

And for those who want to harp on about attractive football, it couldn't get any worse than what we are watching at the moment.

Any new managerial appointment is a gamble, Allardyce would have the best chance of avoiding relegation.

( The proviso surrounds the undercover TV documentry, when his numpty of a son cast a few aspersions on him )

[The Prof.]

JW gets paid a lot of money as do most CE's ( fat cats ) about time he starts to earn it with this Ince saga .

If it was a game of cards it would be stick ? Fold ? ( which is what will happen if he keeps ince ) or the better option Twist while we have plenty of time !

Anyone know what he does get paid?

I can't understand all this anti BFS business ( with one proviso). He is the absolute stand out candidate to keep us in this league. He knows the league inside out. He knows how to motivate players and get them to scrap for results. He has an uncanny knack of bringing in players who are off the radar and getting the most out of them ( Davies, Spit, Okocha etc.). He's used to a relatively small budget.His time at Newcastle must have made him hungry and with something to prove.

And for those who want to harp on about attractive football, it couldn't get any worse than what we are watching at the moment.

Any new managerial appointment is a gamble, Allardyce would have the best chance of avoiding relegation.

( The proviso surrounds the undercover TV documentry, when his numpty of a son cast a few aspersions on him )

Don't laugh - he's training as an airline pilot! This is gods honest truth.

[The Harwood Yankee]

Williams needs to sit down with a blank piece of paper, write 2 columns 'Reasons to keep Ince', 'Reasons to bring in a new manager before the transfer window' and fill them accordingly. In the keeping him column will be financial costs of a new manager & the increasingly unlikely scenario that Ince simply needs more time. In the other column will be everything that has happened since Ince arrived (and Williams will know the true story better than any of us, re: dressing room/training ground spats, player rebellion, the real truth about Friedel's u-turn, Ince's decisions and pulling power in the transfer market, etc).

A rational decision needs to be made very very soon. Another dud transfer window and we are down - simple as that.

ps - since this post is in the Allardyce thread maybe a third column on that piece of paper 'Reasons why Allardyce might be the right man to lift a club with very little money out of the relegation zone & back to where they were under Hughes'. The easiest column of the 3 to fill, most likely...

[LeChuck]

Bobby Mimms!

Ah, of course! I was at work and in a bit of a rush to post that so I didn't bother researching.

I knew I'd made a mental note of the goalkeeping coach being a good appointment, I just couldn't remember who it was. Shame on me.

[greggyk]

We're not Newcastle...there is no chance of Ince being sacked 14 games in

[LeChuck]

We're not Newcastle...there is no chance of Ince being sacked 14 games in

What about Bolton and Wigan? I'd say we're very similar to them, and they did it.

[Wiggy]

Anyone know what he does get paid?

Don't laugh - he's training as an airline pilot! This is gods honest truth.

And he could fly the plane the next time we get into Europe.. though most of the team would have to sit at the back .

[The Harwood Yankee]

We're not Newcastle...there is no chance of Ince being sacked 14 games in

Why not? 62% of the Rovers fans on here want to! Bolton got rid of Sammy Lee this early when they realised he was out of his depth. Megson may not have been everyone's dream replacement but at least he kept them up, which is more than what Ince will do for us given the chance..

ps - You beat me to it, LeChuck!

[Billy Castell]

BFS may have the toughness to keep us up. It'll be ugly and dull football, and we'll have loads of old blokes on a last pay day, but it will be sure to keep us up.

[Wiggy]

Seems like some Notlobbers have a similar take on the situation.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Megson's position at Notlob is far from secure and I would have a fair bet their fans would have him back yesterday......you may have to act soon Mr Williams.

[DingleBaiter]

I'd not considered that Tris but it's certainly an interesting thought. I imagine it would split opinion amongst the fans and I doubt Dunny would be over the moon if it happened.

Don't agree in the slightest sorry - Dunny's man enough to admit that Souness was right on that score at least.

[DingleBaiter]

He has an uncanny knack of bringing in players who are off the radar and getting the most out of them ( Davies, Spit, Okocha etc.). He's used to a relatively small budget. IF THIS IS THE CASE, HOW COME (CONSIDERING HIS HIGH LEVELS OF PLAYER CHURN) IT'S ALWAYS THE SAME 3 or 4 - IN AS MANY SEASONS - PLAYERS MENTIONED AS SUCCESSES??

And for those who want to harp on about attractive football, it couldn't get any worse than what we are watching at the moment. YES IT COULD - PLAYING ALL THE NEGATIVE STUFF LIKE TIMEWASTING 30 MINS INTO A GAME (WE BENEFITTED TWICE AT LEAST AWAY TO BOLTON ON THIS ALONE)

Any new managerial appointment is a gamble, Allardyce would have the best chance of avoiding relegation. (COMPARED TO WHO? - WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE OTHER CONTENDERS ARE - IF AT ALL - AND WE DON'T KNOW IF HE WOULD BE GIVEN MONEY (WHICH HE'S ALWAYS SPENT)

Allardyce isn't a stand-out candidate at all - he's probably only close to favourite because of two factors - availability and previously being on the shortlist. Ask yourselves this - if Allardyce was gainfully employed, would we want him so much to make an approach to get him then?

Sam Allardyce is currently the equivalent of an Anne Widdecombe lookalike sat in the old Cav on a Sat/Sun morning about 0155; she knows she hasn't much chance of a pull on a level playing field, but there'll always be some desperate sod that will drop their expectations in the best tradition of 'needs must'. I just don't want that mug to be our club....

Everything has a cost - in Grotbag's case, it's when you wake up in the morning and try and wriggle out of bed. In BFS's case it's when you're playing worse football, 20 players have left & been replaced, all the money has disappeared, and you're no further forward on the points tally - and still going to hell in a handcart, just with far more despair.

Even some of Allardyce's proponents that I know can only offer him as a 'strong' candidate in that he wouldn't do as bad as job as Ince has - hardly a big sell is it?

[gumboots]

As they always say, time is the greatest healer. I'm sure it'd be more like a fresh start than a handbag slanging match. I think for most of us, Souness is an old flame - he'd certainly bring some true excitement back I think and invigorate our players, as long as he's quietly learned his mistakes from the end of his tenure last time around. The main point I'd have to bring up is the fact that he wouldn't have as much money to spend as last time around. I think Allardyce would be better in that situation.

Still, Ince hasn't been sacked and I'm quietly confident of a victory on Saturday.

Think you could be in a minority of one there!

[tony gale's mic]

Face it Sam is the best fit for Sparky we can find:

Achieved sustained success with a similar sized club on a shoestring

Forward looking manager

Has had some great bargain signings

Has resurrected careers

Has a reputation for playing unattractive football

In fact the biggest differences are the cosmetic stuff, Hughes looks almost statesmanly whereas Allardyce looks fat and bloated. Hughes was a brilliant player, Allardyce was a nobody. But for people who are still "Anyone but Sam" (I used to be one of them) what are your reasons? Before you start on the corruption stuff, that was never proved.

[gumboots]

Just do your next sermon on a 'love thy neighbour' theme and I'm sure that you'll feel much better gumboots.

I keep trying but I reckon the allardyce thing is gong to be the big stumbling block. I know I ought to be able to love the guy but somehow i just can't. Need to keep working on it but I can't see it happening any time soon. Really would need a miracle.

Without turning this Allardyce thread into a Souness one, for crying out loud - he got us back up from the First Division into the Premier League and ended up winning a major (for us) trophy. Or do you just not like him on a personal note? He was brilliant for the club IMO but then change came when it needed to. It was a good chapter in my recollection of Rovering history.

I'd sooner take Allardyce over Souness though as I think there would be too much emphasis or comparison to how he fared in his first stint with us - that could psychologically bring us down.

Didn't mean the manager. Meant the quietly confident of a victory on at the weekend.

[DingleBaiter]

I think you have to look at his track record as manager of Bolton, a club similar in stature to our very own - it's certainly impressive. To be honest I thought he made some excellent signings whilst at Bolton - Okocha, Anelka and Campo to name a few. The spitting camel turned out to be a shrewd signing, too. I'm not buttering him up for the job, but I'd reluctantly like to defend his track record in response to your post

Same point as before - given his time in post, given the amount of players churned (far higher than most clubs), given the transfer outlay and wage bill, who could be judged fairly and consistently a success other than the usual suspects?

JayJay - two contract renewals and he still spent a long time in decline before he shuffled off. Let's not forget he started off a loan signing so Sam couldn't have been too confident in the first place.

Campo - well he did a job I guess.

Anelka - he didn't exactly push him on to a higher level than he was already I'd suggest?

Davies - fair one; he saw his potential to play a certain way and he's been excellent and consistent in doing so.

He did okay with that lad we took off them, Frandsen, give you that one too. However, he didn't do any better than us in resurrecting Jansen or a long line of our Youth/reserve castoffs either did he? He did well with Nolan, and brought through a couple other lads like Hunt into his side - however, other sides weren't exactly banging down doors to take them off his hands were they?

Now, in counter - how many 'old goats' did he bring in for one last crack at the limelight that didn't quite work a la Hierro? Who did he bring in of any note at Bolton - Enrique?

I think in all fairness, BFS's biggest forte isn't transfer dealings, or getting players to play above their comfort zone, or in salvaging careers - it's that he gets his players to play a system on a one size fits all solution.

He is excellent at analysing every aspect of a game to get an advantage - particularly what I'd suggest is the 'negative stuff'. It's no coincidence there's an abundance of stats about their goalie being consistently booked for timewasting for example? He turns football into something like Gridiron; playing percentages in a 21st century reincarnation of the bustard offspring of Charles Hughes, Wing Commander Reep, Egil Olsen & John Beck. It's too simplistic to suggest his sides 'win ugly', his teams also draw and lose gopping too.

He's also pretty good at rallying his team against the big boys (a la Mr Hughes), and it's probably this that suggests why there's an affinity with him.

[DingleBaiter]

Face it Sam is the best fit for Sparky we can find: IRRELEVANT - it's the best fit for the football club, not a previous manager

Achieved sustained success with a similar sized club on a shoestring URBAN MYTH - perhaps he didn't spend a lot of money on individual transfers, but consider his REAL COSTS (backroom stuff, technology, retention, wage bills, agent/third party fees, sell-on fees, high number of transfers) isn't in the 'shoestring' bracket at all.

Forward looking manager - just because someone uses technology to play old-fashioned football tactics phased out decades ago does not make him 'forward looking' - He's the Clive Woodward of football, that's ALL he is

Has had some great bargain signings - balance of probability; given the amount of churn he went through, was always bound to have a few. Also, how does one define 'bargains' - unless you're ignoring the wage bill of course

Has resurrected careers - see previous answer

Has a reputation for playing unattractive football

In fact the biggest differences are the cosmetic stuff, Hughes looks almost statesmanly whereas Allardyce looks fat and bloated. Hughes was a brilliant player, Allardyce was a nobody. But for people who are still "Anyone but Sam" (I used to be one of them) what are your reasons? Before you start on the corruption stuff, that was never proved.

other reasons why not (in no order) ....

He's slagged the club off REPEATEDLY

He's obnoxious, stubborn & childish - witness the way he publically spat his dummy out saying he never really wanted the job. Can you honestly say this is the behaviour of an adult, let alone someone put in a position of power?

He's divisive - fans, board etc

He tanked in his last job

JW would probably fear him as he can't control him

He's far from a certainty - too many are decrying our club in aligning ourselves with Bolton as 'confirmation bias' to prove a track record of similar success. Bolton (in terms of resources) were similar to us in location and attendances alone; they took the gamble in extending themselves financially and the gamble paid off with BFS. BIG difference to what he have now - he's got to work with what he has, not steadily be underpinned financially season-on-season for steady growth

There is no statistical or empirical evidence I'm aware of that BFS has attained similar success in as short a time as he will have here (to avoid relegation in 6 month timescale)

We've no more loan signings available to us - so we'd have to back him with real transfers

We may as well shut down the Academy (contrary to the club's committed focus & business model for the next 3-5 years) IMO THIS IS THE BIGGEST REASON THE CLUB WOULDN'T WANT HIM, AS IT WOULD BRING A FINANCIAL COMMITMENT THEY'D ATTEMPT TO AVOID

Global warming - his chewing and methane output would require to planting over Darwen every game to carbon offset

He's two relegations on his CV

Enough?

[Zulu]

Stick with Incey then. Please.

[joey_big_nose]

Fair enough, there is a lot I don't like about BFS too. But we need someone with fight, premiership experience, a knowledge of a whole back room team he can bring in, knowledge of our players, knowledge of players that he can go after in Jan, a tactical system, and authority.

One thing you can give Allerdyce is that he prepares methodically and with dedication. He will have all this stuff at his finger tips when he comes in, and will know exactly what he want to do. He will have a well thought out and specific plan. Hughes was the same.

Other names that have cropped up like Curbs, or Coppell or whoever, do not strike me as the sort who would hit the floor running like Allerdyce.

If there is someone out there then lets get his name out, but I can't see it. We cannot gamble.

[tony gale's mic]

other reasons why not (in no order) ....

He's slagged the club off REPEATEDLY

He's obnoxious, stubborn & childish - witness the way he publically spat his dummy out saying he never really wanted the job. Can you honestly say this is the behaviour of an adult, let alone someone put in a position of power?

He's divisive - fans, board etc

He tanked in his last job

JW would probably fear him as he can't control him

He's far from a certainty - too many are decrying our club in aligning ourselves with Bolton as 'confirmation bias' to prove a track record of similar success. Bolton (in terms of resources) were similar to us in location and attendances alone; they took the gamble in extending themselves financially and the gamble paid off with BFS. BIG difference to what he have now - he's got to work with what he has, not steadily be underpinned financially season-on-season for steady growth

There is no statistical or empirical evidence I'm aware of that BFS has attained similar success in as short a time as he will have here (to avoid relegation in 6 month timescale)

We've no more loan signings available to us - so we'd have to back him with real transfers

We may as well shut down the Academy (contrary to the club's committed focus & business model for the next 3-5 years) IMO THIS IS THE BIGGEST REASON THE CLUB WOULDN'T WANT HIM, AS IT WOULD BRING A FINANCIAL COMMITMENT THEY'D ATTEMPT TO AVOID

Global warming - his chewing and methane output would require to planting over Darwen every game to carbon offset

He's two relegations on his CV

Enough?

Its very relevant that he's a good fit to Sparky, I feel that we, like Bolton, are a club best suited to a certain type of manager.

I would say if anything your comments on the size of his staff, cost of add ons were an urban myth. Where did you get these "real costs" from? You mention "sell on fees" - are these the same sell on fees Hughes negotiated which meant we had to surrender so much of the Bentley money? Wage bills? I'd imagine Anelka was their highest paid player - he can't have been paid that much more than Santa Cruz currently is. Unless you have hard figures all your assertions are more urban myths than anything else - his wage bills, the cost of his backroom staff (not like Ince didnt bring in a fair few is it?)..and considering how much players/wages cost I doubt his technology would represent a significant portion of the cost.

On the other hand, what isn't an urban myth is that Bolton are a similar sized club to Rovers. Their budget will be quite similar to ours. If what he achieved at Bolton was achievable on their budget it will be achievable on ours. Especially if we get that £18 million for RSC, shame though it would be.

Again on the topic of "bargains" your wage bill comment is another urban myth until proved otherwise. You say he went through "churn" but can't have wasted that much money due to budget constraints. On the other hand there were numerous signings that worked out well. Despite Hughes' great transfer record, we can name signings that havent worked out so well: Mokoena, Roberts, Jeffers, Rigters, Berner, Vogel...it's the signings that worked that mattered.

Paul Ince slagged us off during his playing days. Doesn't make a difference to how he'll do the job.

Obnoxious, stubborn and childish - sorry but you'd have to know him well to make this judgement, not based on one comment. Sir Alex probably fits those three descriptions too.

He's divisive? I'd say Bolton fans were pretty united behind him even though they were unhappy at how he left.

He tanked in his last job? Unfair - that's Newcastle. Plus they did worse both before AND after he left, both times they were hovering around the relegation zone, at least under Allardyce they were languishing around lower mid table. He was only given half a season.

Name me a certainty?! He's as close to one as we can get right now.

Success is success - if we were going on managers with a reputation for a miraculous turnaround we'd appoint our current manager for what he did with Macclesfield.

Real transfers is alright - he has a good track record in the market and we should have some money in January. Plus he's made some quality free transfers.

Two relegations on his CV - like with Ince, I would think its probably better to judge him on his Premier League achievements than his lower division ones. When was his last relegation?

May as well shut the Academy? It's hardly going to get worse with the output its been producing is it? At least Bolton have produced Nolan and Hunt in recent years.

=================================================

That's still no really good objections you've given. And you'd expect one or two objections with any manager, it's not like there's a glaring candidate. People have complained about the prejudice against Ince from day one but if Sam got appointed there'd be more people prejudiced against him before we even kicked a ball, despite his vastly superior record. I would have been one of the same, but I've got over it.

[John]

Nottingham Forest are ready to offer former Newcastle and Bolton boss Sam Allardyce a dramatic return to football with current manager Colin Calderwood on the brink of the sack. (Daily Mail)

[gillibrand]

Nottingham Forest are ready to offer former Newcastle and Bolton boss Sam Allardyce a dramatic return to football with current manager Colin Calderwood on the brink of the sack. (Daily Mail)

Well that's it then, all the anti SAM'S look like getting their wish of watching lower league football next season!