[Archived] John Williams And His Role..

[Billy Castell]

We need a Randy Lerner. Williams has taken us as far as he can go, as has the Trust. The lack of funds (or lack of real team investment) will kill us in the current climate.

[thenodrog]

Do you seriously think thats the answer?

The only thating that could have made Sunday any worse would have been to look over at the dug out and see some fat get chewing wrigleys like its going out of fashion, and realising that it was our manager.

NUFC fans will tell you that they have never witnessed worse football than when managed by Bog Sam.

1. He wisely sits in the stand 1st half as a rule.

2. NUFC fans say the same about somebody roughly every 18 months.

[tony gale's mic]

Do you seriously think thats the answer?

The only thating that could have made Sunday any worse would have been to look over at the dug out and see some fat get chewing wrigleys like its going out of fashion, and realising that it was our manager.

NUFC fans will tell you that they have never witnessed worse football than when managed by Bog Sam.

Even when they had much worse form after he left under Kevin Keegan?!

We were hardly Brazil before anyway.

[tony gale's mic]

It has to be remembered that before Ince, JW's first choice was Alan Shearer which in all probability would have turned into yet another disastrous appointment.

I'm sorry but the sheer mess he made of this affair means questions have to be asked about his role in future selection processes. I'm a JW fan and think he's done a great job for our club, and I'm certainly not in the JW out brigade. His day to day running of the club has been second to none. But maybe he should take more of a back seat when we appoint our next manager and just beome one voice rather than the leading one.

[Exiled in Toronto]

It has to be remembered that before Ince, JW's first choice was Alan Shearer which in all probability would have turned into yet another disastrous appointment.

I'm sorry but the sheer mess he made of this affair means questions have to be asked about his role in future selection processes. I'm a JW fan and think he's done a great job for our club, and I'm certainly not in the JW out brigade. His day to day running of the club has been second to none. But maybe he should take more of a back seat when we appoint our next manager and just beome one voice rather than the leading one.

Here's a first for you - I agree completely! Shearer and Ince as the front two says a lot to me about Williams not feeling comfortable having very experienced managers around the place.

[hawaii501]

How can losing Dunn be the key to anything ? We're talking David Dunn here not Alan Shearer at his peak. Dunny has been in and out of the team because of injury ever since he came back from his injury riddled spell with the Big Club.

He could come back at Xmas ,play a game or two and then be out again till the end of the season, everybody who watches Rovers knows that.

If you're relying on the return of Dunny to transform our future you're going to be disapointed.

You're talking out of ur arse mate Dunny's had a very good run of games since coming back to us, since re-signing in January 2007 he has played 44 games which isnt bad

[The Prof.]

We need a Randy Lerner. Williams has taken us as far as he can go, as has the Trust. The lack of funds (or lack of real team investment) will kill us in the current climate.

And there's one on every street corner waiting for us to call - isn't there?

[tony gale's mic]

Don't call any potential saviour an investor, they'd need to be a benefactor. An investor and a benefactor are two very different things IMO. There is absolutely no chance we'll get someone good to invest in our club.

[LeChuck]

Do you seriously think thats the answer?

The only thating that could have made Sunday any worse would have been to look over at the dug out and see some fat get chewing wrigleys like its going out of fashion, and realising that it was our manager.

NUFC fans will tell you that they have never witnessed worse football than when managed by Bog Sam.

And Bolton fans will tell you he had them close to qualifying for Champion's League on a couple of occasions, and consistently gave them top 10 finishes.

They'll also tell you how much they enjoyed watching players like Okocha and Anelka over the years he was there.

There just isn't another name available to us that ticks so many boxes.

[joey_big_nose]

It has to be remembered that before Ince, JW's first choice was Alan Shearer which in all probability would have turned into yet another disastrous appointment.

I'm sorry but the sheer mess he made of this affair means questions have to be asked about his role in future selection processes. I'm a JW fan and think he's done a great job for our club, and I'm certainly not in the JW out brigade. His day to day running of the club has been second to none. But maybe he should take more of a back seat when we appoint our next manager and just beome one voice rather than the leading one.

Thats a good point. The whole Shearer thing was totally wacky. I sort of did not quite believe Nicko when he said it.

I am sure JW will change tack now though.

[joey_big_nose]

One question I have been pondering is what was behind Williams choosing Ince?

Williams came out at the press conference and said something like, 'Well, it worked with Hughes so we have gone the same route.' Which, on the face of it, we had and I at first thought the guy was worth a punt when compared to the likes of Allardyce. But this theory has some holes:

i) Ince cannot have been as impressive in the interviews as Hughes given the huge gulf in their eloquence and gravitas. In fact, from what we have seen, there is little doubt he would interview the worst of any group of candidates. Why would Williams overlook this?

ii) Hughes could point to a top notch backroom staff, already assembled with Wales, who he would recruit. Ince could not and for good reason: he hadn't been a manager long enough or at a high enough level to assemble a strong team. Williams should have known that Hughes would leave a Marie Celeste at Brockhall and factored this in as a showstopper - he was not recruiting a manager but a management team. I must admit I had not thought this issue through when being supportive of Ince, but then I don't get paid 250,000 a year to think of such things. Why did he overlook this crucial issue?

I have seen three clues as to what I now think was Williams' real motivation: that he thinks he is the real footballing brains at Ewood and wanted a subservient manager

i) At the infamous press conference, I was struck by how Ince kept referring to 'Mr Chairman' and seeing the smug grin on Williams' face. I have heard (copyright Philipl) that both Souness and Williams basically treated Williams like a gopher, so it would not be a surprise if he wanted a manager who knew his proper station in life.

ii) The comment from Jansen that Williams 'wanted to build a team around him, duffer and Dunny' Eh? I thought managers built teams.

iii) Williams clearly revelled in being the centre of attention while the 'search' was on, plus seems quite puffed up about his seat on various PL committees.

All this adds up to a case of Chairman's Disease - thinking they are the real reason behind the success and looking for a manager who would not challenge that assumption by telling him to p!ss off away from Brockhall. So over-promote someone who will then not pose a threat to the Chairman's view of himself.

Unfortunately, if there is any truth in this, it lessens the chance of Ince being given his cards anytime soon.

Happy to be shot down by the Williams is perfect brigade, but only if you can point to alternate explanation as to why Ince was chosen in the first place, because it wasn't on merit, qualifications or experience.

I don't agree with most of that because it seems a pretty negative and biased opinion on JW based on about five or six media appearences. He did seem to like the role, but once Ince was settled he got his head down, and he always gave Hughes and Souness excellent support and garnered great praise from them. So your hypothesis as to his character is a big stretch for me.

What does strike a chord with me though is i) and ii) at the top of the post. I assumed the reason that Ince got the job was due to having a high quality plan for how he could take the club forward over a 2-3 season period. He did seem to approach the job that way (there was talk of a 3 year plan from the moment he was appointed) but it is hard to see how Ince could have effectively put that across without A| ideas of who he would bring in as staff B| Who he could potentially sign C| His apparent poor communication skills.

The offering of the job to Shearer prior to Ince does suggest that JW maybe thought getting a highly successful and driven former player (just like Hughes and Souness, and indeed Dalgleish) is the main requirement. It is a massive asset, but the importance of structure, continutity and planning seems to have been overlooked a little.

[tony gale's mic]

A successful playing career has very little bearing on a management career. Look at the top four managers.

One can argue that a successful playing career would have indicated drive and determination, but more often than not its more an indicator of playing talent. One can also argue that a successful playing career means someone will be less driven to make their name for themselves as a manager. I'd say both factors cancel out.

[Amo]

I think Williams obviously thought he could get lucky with another Fergie prodigy, without having to spend money on a gamble like Laudrup. I know Ince is a bit rough around the edges, but I'm sure he could talk a good game away from the cameras. Maybe not as articulately as other managers, but I'm sure he was very buzzed about working in the Premiership.

Unfortunately, Hughes and Ince have very different ideals on how the game should be played. Hughes had no problem bullying teams so long as it got results, whereas Ince takes affront to any mention of the bully boy tag and thinks he can play pretty football with the squad he has -- which doesn't help when he invests in lower-league has-beens.

[broadsword]

Thats a good point. The whole Shearer thing was totally wacky. I sort of did not quite believe Nicko when he said it.

He backed out when he was told of the transfer budget.

If we're really going to try and stay in this division without spending much at all, we need someone who isn't going to be learning on the job.

I mean, that's just so basic.

I'm sure Ince would've done a better job if he had had some financial leeway, but he really is on a shoestring and it's showing up his lack of experience.

[gillibrand]

But who is going to give money to a bafoon to flush down the drain of lower division never will bee's

[joey_big_nose]

But who is going to give money to a bafoon to flush down the drain of lower division never will bee's

There is truly a sting in that waspish assessment.

[gillibrand]

There is truly a sting in that waspish assessment.

[tony gale's mic]

JW has come down massively in my estimation these last few months.

[gillibrand]

But he is very good at dithering, yes, yes, yes, no!

[tony gale's mic]

If we get relegated it's JW I'll be blaming much more than Ince.

Ince is incompetent, he applied for a job on the back of successes in his career, genuinely probably thought he was good enough and I'm sure all the idiotic steps he's taken have been because he thought they'd help us be more successful. The man's an idiot, a moron and utterly incompetent, but at the end of the day he is what he is.

But JW should never have appointed him in the first place, and shouldve sacked him after the Portsmouth game at the latest. It's been a catalogue of errors on his part.

[jim mk2]

But JW should never have appointed him in the first place, and shouldve sacked him after the Portsmouth game at the latest. It's been a catalogue of errors on his part.

Well said that man.

[broadsword]

I can't square john Williams telling someone that Paul Ince is very thorough, uses ProZone blah blah blah with us only picking up 3 points from a possible 33.

Is he using proZone to play space invaders or something?

I think what I'm trying to say is: has John Williams been telling bare-faced lies to cover his own ass hoping that Ince eventually gets it right. Given that Ince is "his" boy.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

If we get relegated it's JW I'll be blaming much more than Ince.

Ince is incompetent, he applied for a job on the back of successes in his career, genuinely probably thought he was good enough and I'm sure all the idiotic steps he's taken have been because he thought they'd help us be more successful. The man's an idiot, a moron and utterly incompetent, but at the end of the day he is what he is.

But JW should never have appointed him in the first place, and shouldve sacked him after the Portsmouth game at the latest. It's been a catalogue of errors on his part.

Agree 100%

Infact i have been making the same point since about September- Only for the JW/Trust 'love in camp' to disagree. JW tried to do it on 'the cheap' , which pretty much fits with rovers buiness model of the past 5-6 seasons.

[philipl]

How many times have I got to say that JW is NOT DOING IT ON THE CHEAP

Ince is being paid £1.5m per annum.

That is above the median rate for a Premier League Manager.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

How many times have I got to say that JW is NOT DOING IT ON THE CHEAP

Ince is being paid £1.5m per annum.

That is above the median rate for a Premier League Manager.

How the funk do you know that? You don’t ,it is simply your own opinion yet agian presented as fact. I for one would have slightly more respect for you if stated you believe that Ince is on 1.5 per annum rather than presenting your own guesswork as fact. How do you even know what the average salary of a premiership manager is- you do not

A point in case was your ridiculous guesswork on Dick Advoccat salary at Zenith – what was it 9 million a season?

Back on topic- Ince clearly was the cheapest option out of the possible recruits- for the simple fact that he had no leverage to negotiate an above average salary.