[Archived] Trusties

[stuwilky]

is there any way of getting it??

No.

[DingleBaiter]

Just do what everyone else does; guess - then pretend to know

There's 3 distinct parties to consider - the Club, the Walker Trust, and the Walker family. The facts are quite sparse on the whole set-up, but it's possibly simplest to consider the Trust as a separate entity to the Club/board to (supposedly) protect Jack's legacy to the club.

The WT is one part of the 750m Walker family fortune, but as mentioned previously there's variety of interests included in the 'empire' of which the WT is just one relatively minor (in their eyes) aspect.

Theoretically, if we complied with Jack's true wishes, we'd not need the Trust as the club would be self-sufficient. Few years ago club had a bit of reshuffle that did two things, elevated an 'outsider' Trustee (DB) into a position of greater influence to take the club into a different direction (thought by some to be one whereby it would less reliant on the Trustee's capital) whilst also trying to address the future commercially e.g. trying to generate better ticket sales, revamping marketing into a more 'professional' concern, and possibly considering an exist strategy. However, in the cold light of day, they're probably fighting a losing battle in that the fans won't sustain the club to the extent they've come to expect & yet the Trustees don't wish to be forever bailing out the club - and why should they, really? So, the only logical step would be to sell the club - hopefully whilst retaining certain principles they feel would best serve the club.

Let's not forget, with all the criticism thrown at the Trustees - often mis-guided or mis-informed - there is a way we could continue to live out Jacks (and our own dreams) - by funding it ourselves? Assuming the debt's been written off, if we raised the cash between us we could do an Ebbsfleet - however, we'd probably only get about 237 quid and a few conkers. THAT'S the reality sadly; too many people are quick to criticise whilst expecting someone else will keep throwing cash in.

What I've written here is only my perception based on what little I know, though sound documented evidence of the Trust is quite scarce; we're only often told what they want us to know, via press releases etc. (and we all know how carp the club is on THAT score).

I DO feel the Trustees get a tad too much slating at times, such as accusations of trousering money from transfers without consider the commercial aspects of the club's business nor understand the concept of the Trust.

Separate to the issue of the current issue of the manager, I happen to feel the club is as well run (possibly even better) than we could reasonably expect, given a Premiership club ultimately needs money - but we're often happier to expect some other silly blighter to keep putting their money where our mouths are.....

[PAFELL]

Just do what everyone else does; guess - then pretend to know

There's 3 distinct parties to consider - the Club, the Walker Trust, and the Walker family. The facts are quite sparse on the whole set-up, but it's possibly simplest to consider the Trust as a separate entity to the Club/board to (supposedly) protect Jack's legacy to the club.

The WT is one part of the 750m Walker family fortune, but as mentioned previously there's variety of interests included in the 'empire' of which the WT is just one relatively minor (in their eyes) aspect.

Theoretically, if we complied with Jack's true wishes, we'd not need the Trust as the club would be self-sufficient. Few years ago club had a bit of reshuffle that did two things, elevated an 'outsider' Trustee (DB) into a position of greater influence to take the club into a different direction (thought by some to be one whereby it would less reliant on the Trustee's capital) whilst also trying to address the future commercially e.g. trying to generate better ticket sales, revamping marketing into a more 'professional' concern, and possibly considering an exist strategy. However, in the cold light of day, they're probably fighting a losing battle in that the fans won't sustain the club to the extent they've come to expect & yet the Trustees don't wish to be forever bailing out the club - and why should they, really? So, the only logical step would be to sell the club - hopefully whilst retaining certain principles they feel would best serve the club.

Let's not forget, with all the criticism thrown at the Trustees - often mis-guided or mis-informed - there is a way we could continue to live out Jacks (and our own dreams) - by funding it ourselves? Assuming the debt's been written off, if we raised the cash between us we could do an Ebbsfleet - however, we'd probably only get about 237 quid and a few conkers. THAT'S the reality sadly; too many people are quick to criticise whilst expecting someone else will keep throwing cash in.

What I've written here is only my perception based on what little I know, though sound documented evidence of the Trust is quite scarce; we're only often told what they want us to know, via press releases etc. (and we all know how carp the club is on THAT score).

I DO feel the Trustees get a tad too much slating at times, such as accusations of trousering money from transfers without consider the commercial aspects of the club's business nor understand the concept of the Trust.

Separate to the issue of the current issue of the manager, I happen to feel the club is as well run (possibly even better) than we could reasonably expect, given a Premiership club ultimately needs money - but we're often happier to expect some other silly blighter to keep putting their money where our mouths are.....

When I started this topic, my question was who are they accountable too. To me it is obvious if you invest in a football club you have to invest in the playing staff - buy the players, get into the top 4, champions league etc - it is a succsessful football team that makes money - not a team struggling agaist relegation etc.

This is where the trust are doing things wrong - they are failing to do what is best. Unless for an easier sale they want the club to go down - which to me is silly.

Secondly who advises the trusties - because they may have put money into the club in the past - I am not slating them at all - but If Rovers could have a successful team the trust would make money - but instead we never hear from them and it is the supporters who are keeping the club going NOW. Take the fans away and there is NO FOOTBALL CLUB and somebody needs to make this known to the trusties.

[RevidgeBlue]

When I started this topic, my question was who are they accountable too.

Theoretically I presume they are answerable to the Walker family/shareholders/directors of Jack's various businesses they are meant to help.

In practice they're answerable to no-one as they own nearly all the shares in BRFC anyway, I can't see the family clamouring for funds to be pumped into BRFC nor in reality can I see John Williams or Tom Finn risking their highly lucrative positions by pushing too hard for funding to be made available.

[RevidgeBlue]

I was thinking about this the other day and really we're at a big disadvantage to the majority of other football clubs in that most owners are at the helm because they badly WANT to be whereas ours don't, in fact they DON'T want to be and this must permeate down through the Club.

I remember David Gold being on the radio a while ago when they were thinking of selling to that Chinese guy and at the time he said they expected they would be selling, but in the meantime they would back their then manager Steve Bruce to the hilt.

That's where the Trustees have gone wrong for me. Nothing wrong with them wanting out per se but in the meantime they should have backed Hughes and now Ince to the hilt.

[DingleBaiter]

When I started this topic, my question was who are they accountable too. To me it is obvious if you invest in a football club you have to invest in the playing staff - buy the players, get into the top 4, champions league etc - it is a succsessful football team that makes money - not a team struggling agaist relegation etc.

This is where the trust are doing things wrong - they are failing to do what is best. Unless for an easier sale they want the club to go down - which to me is silly.

Secondly who advises the trusties - because they may have put money into the club in the past - I am not slating them at all - but If Rovers could have a successful team the trust would make money - but instead we never hear from them and it is the supporters who are keeping the club going NOW. Take the fans away and there is NO FOOTBALL CLUB and somebody needs to make this known to the trusties.

The Trustees are accountable to the Trust; as they should be.

If the club was solely reliant on the fans we'd be where we were before JW got involved - or lower probably.

I take your interpretation of where the Trustees are going wrong in your opinion, but IMO they're walking a tightrope as they're trying to balance 'cutting the apron strings' in terms of financial reliance but also they're not really responsible for the present malaise, at least in terms of lack of financial investment & manager selection.

I agree that it would be nice if the board put a case to the Trustees for 'emergency funds', as that's what we might be facing - and we'll need money somehow to address the present calamity, however that transpires....

1. Sack Ince bunch = (compo)

2. Recruit the best AVAILABLE manager = (approx double expenditure)

3. Recruit the BEST manager, even if in another job = (even more money than taking BFS)

4. Buy BETTER players, whoever is the manager, than they'd budgeted for (even more money)

5. Stay in the nether regions of the Prem (lose revenue from positional income, TV matches etc.)

6. Get relegated (lose even more revenue)

Whatever happens, there isn't a cheap option - it's all about the board making the best decisions, not the least expensive ones. However, being as the fans won't be able to fund it, it would mean going cap in hand to the Trustees as the club sure as sheet doesn't have the money.

This is where the board comes in (as they'd presumably have to put a business case to the WT); however, they don't advise the WT (as one would presume the Trust judge the case put by the club set against the terms of the Trust).

Finally, the main aim of the Trust isn't to make money - it's to continue the legacy of JW as best as possible; his primary focus wasn't to make money (he'd done that enough elsewhere). I'd suggest IF the club could be sold and any profit was released, the assumption that the Trustees would absorb these profit/benefits at the expense of BRFC is a sleight on Jack's memory & 'trust' in his best friend.

[RevidgeBlue]

The Trustees are accountable to the Trust; as they should be.

By "Trust" I take it you mean Beneficiaries of the Trust.

A "Trust" is a legal device.

[Eddie]

I'm thinking that he may mean the terms or instructions provided by the trust, but we don't really know how much discretion the trustees actually have.

[RevidgeBlue]

I'm thinking that he may mean the terms or instructions provided by the trust, but we don't really know how much discretion the trustees actually have.

Ah, fair point.

I can only assume from the discrepancy in the support given to the club now, as opposed to immediately after Jack's death, they have absolute discretion.

Even if that's the case however, I don't think they're acting in the overall spirit of Jack's wishes.

[The1mattjansen]

I strongly object to all the slagging of the Walker family/Walker trust fund.

At the end of the day it is not for us to decide how much of THEIR money they put into the club. Everyone assumes that Jack has told them to plow money into the club, but I doubt very much that was the case. He was a businessman through and through, and as much as he loved his time at the reigns I doubt very much he would have instructed his family to sacrifice there inherited wealth for the sake of the club. I also doubt that that they would want to go against his wishes, and so we are receiving/have received what he would have wanted.

The fact is that they are no more obligated to pump millions into the club than anybody else on this board. However, we have all evidently not been so successful in our lifetime to be able to afford such an honor and so we're not in a position to tell them to do so.

[PAFELL]

I strongly object to all the slagging of the Walker family/Walker trust fund.

At the end of the day it is not for us to decide how much of THEIR money they put into the club. Everyone assumes that Jack has told them to plow money into the club, but I doubt very much that was the case. He was a businessman through and through, and as much as he loved his time at the reigns I doubt very much he would have instructed his family to sacrifice there inherited wealth for the sake of the club. I also doubt that that they would want to go against his wishes, and so we are receiving/have received what he would have wanted.

The fact is that they are no more obligated to pump millions into the club than anybody else on this board. However, we have all evidently not been so successful in our lifetime to be able to afford such an honor and so we're not in a position to tell them to do so.

I do not believe that people on this current discussion are slagging off the walker family / walker trust fund. Instead they are asking, commenting on a subject that a lot of Rovers supporters would like to know about. Natuarally in any conversation on any topic there will always be somebody who goes over the top. But at the moment that hasn't happened during these posts.

You are right it is up to the trusties to decide if they want or don't want to put money into Rovers. But IMO a trust is as what it says, a body set up, trusted to take care to the best of their ability that which has been entrusted to them. In this case Rovers. The reality is that not a lot of money has been invested into Rovers for awhile, therefore in my view and maybe others feel the same, means they are falling short on their obligations. But because the supporters are kept in the dark about the obligations the trust have to meet. The supporters are the ones who pay to go to the games and if they didn't go, then money would not come into either the clubs hands or the trusts and therefore both would suffer.

I have therefore considered that the people operating the trust - due to their lack of interest in football and being business people lack sufficient football knowledge to full fill that what is best for Rovers. With a bit more support Rovers could easily be in the top 4 in the prem - when that happens then they should be able to look after themselves financially - but not until then - therefore Rovers need greater support from the trusties. Their first task at the moment is to get rid of the current manager and appoint a more reliable and experienced one. BUT

[patrickvalery]

[quote name='The1mattjansen' date='Dec 1 2008, 01:53 ' post='699194'

At the end of the day it is not for us to decide how much of THEIR money they put into the club.

Agreed. As hard as it is to accept this, its the cold hard truth. I know Jack set the trust up to secure the clubs future, but that was his dream. Not necessarily or probably anyone elses in the Walker Family. I ask you, if you were one of the beneficiaries of a multi million pound fortune but terms of this were you had to maintain the future of lets say Tranmere Rovers, would you do it? Would you do the minimum you could in order to fulfill the legal obligations because that particular little folly was loosing money hand over fist? This is the pessamistic view.

A more optomistic one: I'm not sure how accurate this is, but seem to recall when Jack died there was talk of a £200m fortune he left for the club. Now you, me, or anyone else can not know the validity of this figure. But if its true then the role of the trust must be to disperse this as they see fit in order for the club to continue to operate. As mentioned in a previous post, Jack was unlikely to safegaurd Blackburn Rovers at the expense of his family. He was no idiot and he could see, even in the good times, that the club could not sustain itself. Perhaps that £200m was giving us a fighting chance. But once its gone, its gone. I know this is pure conjecture, but if you take this theory as gospel, then are the trustees not doing a fine job? If the trust has a shelf life (ie when that £200m runs out) then they would be well advised not to put all their eggs in one basket.

Either way we are pretty much buggered. Even if the club had unlimited access to the Walker family fortune we couldn't compete for long. £750m is a lot of money to 99% of the world. Unfortunately its the other 1% who seem to be buying up Premier League clubs. Unless you are a multi billionaire there is little point in investing in football.

Football tends to go in circles. Many great sides of the past go into decline and then rise to great things again in years to come. Unfortunately we may just be coming to the downward curve. Its sad and hard to stomach, but maybe its just reality. We do not have a large enough catchment area to fill the stadium, let alone become a global brand. For this reason it is unlikely we will get bought out. And even if we were is that a good thing? I think i'd sooner watch league 2 football than have our heart and soul torn out. But you can be sure that Football will go full circle again. And once these fat cats up and leave the Man City's of this world they will suffer a far worse fate. I know this sad reality is dawning upon us. But i really hope its not gonna happen this season.

Lets bite the bullet, admit defeat with Ince and get some fight back into the club.

[thenodrog]

THAT'S the reality sadly; too many people are quick to criticise whilst expecting someone else will keep throwing cash in.

..............Separate to the issue of the current issue of the manager, I happen to feel the club is as well run (possibly even better) than we could reasonably expect, given a Premiership club ultimately needs money - but we're often happier to expect some other silly blighter to keep putting their money where our mouths are.....

Correct. Jack Walker said many times that BRFC would have to run as a business (before writing a cheque to appease another useless manager! ).

I can't help wondering what might have been with a combination of super scout Mark Hughes and super benefactor Jack Walker had been in position together.

Who are the trusties accountable too?

btw Pafell, in Porridge I think the trusties were resonsible to Mr Mckay and Mr Barraclough.

[Jan]

Yes- I was getting annoyed at that too. In the title it should be "Trustees" and "To".

[CrazyIvan]

Yes- I was getting annoyed at that too. In the title it should be "Trustees" and "To".

Agreed, can someone edit the title please? It's annoying!

[RevidgeBlue]

I strongly object to all the slagging of the Walker family/Walker trust fund.

At the end of the day it is not for us to decide how much of THEIR money they put into the club.

It isn't THEIR money that's the whole point.

If it was, you're quite right, we'd have no right whatsoever to tell them how to spend their money.

The Trustees control a Trust Fund set up by Jack Walker for the benefit of all his businesses.

Are they complying with any specific directions set out in the Trust or in the absence of specific directions at least complying with the overall spirit of Jack's wishes? That's the only topic under debate.

I don't believe they are.

[Bobby G]

They arent. For sure. But what can we do about it? Greed, profitmaking, etc are elements of society.

[Zulu]

Just think yourself lucky that the Warburton family didn't own you since Leverhulme Park was a plant pot!

They're that tight they squeak when they walk. Not in control now, but the legacy lives on. I wouldn't have minded Uncle Jack being a Bowtoner - particularly as one of his yards was about 300 yards from Burnden Park, as I recall.

[DingleBaiter]

The Trustees control a Trust Fund set up by Jack Walker for the benefit of all his businesses.

Isn't the Trust aligned to view Rovers as a separate entitity more akin to a hobby & 'Jack's baby' whilst maintaining guidance over Jack's other (strictly business) interests? Regarding his other business interests, I'd suggest they're being dealt with differently - or young Ross is going to have a shock

To correct my previous post what's often referred to as the Trust is actually the Jack Walker Settlement, and the 'other businesses'/asssets (Flybe & property for instance) would effectively subsidise Rovers (if needs be). The chairman of the JWS was a solicitor in Jersey, and another Trustee , Jack's best mate (David Brown) came into the Club as Vice Chairman. So, as nobody seems to know the terms the trustees are working to (other than them of course), just because there's a perception the trustees aren't funding Rovers to the extent some fans would like, does not make them negligent or working contrary to Jack's wishes. They probably feel they've pumped enough into the club and they're best served selling the club to someone they feel reassured would take the club on.

The assumption is that DB, though a board member, is the link between the trustees and the club. Let's not forget the (assumed) purpose of the JWS overall is to maintain executive power over Jack's interests, and if the thing he dearly loved (the club) is becoming a millstone, then they're doing their job properly in addressing it and not making the situation worse by throwing good money after bad.

[stuwilky]

They arent. For sure. But what can we do about it? Greed, profitmaking, etc are elements of society.

Are they not?

Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us on the contents that make you able to say that with certainty.

[Majiball]

Let's not forget, with all the criticism thrown at the Trustees - often mis-guided or mis-informed - there is a way we could continue to live out Jacks (and our own dreams) - by funding it ourselves? Assuming the debt's been written off, if we raised the cash between us we could do an Ebbsfleet - however, we'd probably only get about 237 quid and a few conkers. THAT'S the reality sadly; too many people are quick to criticise whilst expecting someone else will keep throwing cash in.

If only. How much do they want 70M, so lets say 25,000 contributors = £2,500 so I'm in at that price, however I want a say on the youth and the sports science.

At the end of the day it is not for us to decide how much of THEIR money they put into the club.

Agreed. As hard as it is to accept this, its the cold hard truth. I know Jack set the trust up to secure the clubs future, but that was his dream. Not necessarily or probably anyone elses in the Walker Family. I ask you, if you were one of the beneficiaries of a multi million pound fortune but terms of this were you had to maintain the future of lets say Tranmere Rovers, would you do it?

Simply yes. If my family member had made that kind of money and Tranmere was his choice and he had a dream for them I would not give up till that dream was achieved. The money may have passed over but I did not earn it its not mine to decide how it gets spent.

The trust have gotten us back in the premiership, how much money did we spend once Souness got us back? At the end of the day they have kept us going and tried to fulfil the remit how they say fit.

However its evident that Jack left explicit instructions over the club, however I could just be reading between the lines a step too far.

1. Rovers must be in the premier league - Why did they spend all that money once promoted.

2. Don't sell Rovers to anyone who doesn't fit the following boxes - Well done Jack, but in the same notion we're catch 22 now.

3. Make the club self-sustaining - congratulations we are, you've ticked this box. However if we go down this box gets unticked as we will lose 20M a season just in TV money.

4. Our self-sufficient life-style, has been limited. But we have done well by shopping on Ebay so far, However as with all things on Ebay some are not as described so sometimes its better to buy in person. By this I mean that the manager is the single most important person at the club, he should not come from Ebay IE the bargain basement.

The trouble is last time we where in this situation did they put in money? I'm not sure they did. At the end of the day at least we know where we stand with them and thats a real bonus in football. We will not be forced to sell players/assets we will not be plunged into debt, which can only be a good thing.

They have the power to make us stay in the premiership, I wonder what route/chance they will take.

[Uddersfelt Blue]

They have the power to make us stay in the premiership, I wonder what route/chance they will take.

This a turning point for the Club and the town generally.

The Trustees and the Walker family are presumably sitting on a fortune which was made possible by the efforts of one of their own and Blackburn people over the years. Failure to act in the interests of those people will show that they do not really care. I hope thats not the case.

[PAFELL]

Yes- I was getting annoyed at that too. In the title it should be "Trustees" and "To".

Thank you for the spelling lesson - not sure if it is possible to change it now. Over to the mods to install a spell checker for bad spellers like myself.

[gillibrand]

I think the Trustees should get Ince out to safeguard their investment, and hang on to the cash for a new manager.

[BiggusLaddus]

If only. How much do they want 70M, so lets say 25,000 contributors = £2,500 so I'm in at that price, however I want a say on the youth and the sports science.

How much do you have left for transfers?

And how will we get 25,000 people to hand over £2,500 is they won't even pay 1% of that to watch the games?