[Archived] Paul Ince Gone

[FourLaneBlue]

When we've had several top 10 finishes under Allardyce, perhaps you might like to post this again when it'll be more relevant.

Bolton had four top eight finishes under Allardyce. Hughes himself has only managed half of that so far including his season at moneybags City.

How about we give Sam the time and the chance to try to repeat what he has done before?

[John]

How about we give Sam the time and the chance to try to repeat what he has done before?

Because some people dislike the man as a person, therefore anything negative which happens at the club is obviously directly his fault.....

[PAFELL]

ince got rovers to the last 8 in the carling cup,and we played some premier teams on the way

Ince got Rovers entrenched - points adrift - in the premiership. Due to your hatred of Big Sam you would not be able to see major achievement of the club when they happen. A lot of the current players are new to the squad and need time to settle. Sam kept Rovers in the prem last season, and therefore deserves to be the manager of Rovers this season. That is something you need to understand - there are very few managers who could make a success of Rovers due to the money restrictions on the club. Love or hate him Big Sam has that abillity and shown us that at this moment in time, he is the best man for the job.

Times change as in all walks of life - we do not know if somebody else or the Walker trust comes along and invests in Rovers. But whilst Rovers are in the prem - even if they only stay up by the skin of their teeth - there is always a chance of investment from somewhere. Sam's task in my view is to keep Rovers in the prem first and foremost - build on from there. He has achieved that. He has done it with the players he has chosen to use and in the style he wants them to do. But players / style they are secondry issues at this momment to survival

What more do you want him to do?

[T4E]

Why do people reply to Waggy? No sane person could possibly make the arguements he does and genuinely mean them - he's clearly baiting and more's the pity he keeps catching. Allardyce has been here almost a year now, no one is going to change his mind about him - and more to the point why would you want to?

[Mc Love]

True I4S - Dont feed the troll

[Exiled in Toronto]

Bolton had four top eight finishes under Allardyce. Hughes himself has only managed half of that so far including his season at moneybags City.

How about we give Sam the time and the chance to try to repeat what he has done before?

Because given his pedigree, I for one am not satisfied at the progress he has made after 11 months in the job. In my career I never got a free pass for 11 months in a new job. He is VASTLY more experienced than Ince yet, after almost a year, we are a mere 3 points better off than we were this time last year. If Ince was such a clown and Allardyce a top 8 manager, why has the improvement not manifested itself in points and places?

Yes he had to sell RSC, but he hardly did anything last year, and Warnock - both for inflated fees - and, while some of the money went into the coffers, he did spend circa 12 million over the summer, which is surely a record summer spend in our history. His big money signing and his 'back me or sack me' signing have so far contributed nothing; his first signing, Diouf, has also contributed nothing this season, as has Van Heerden. 4 signings who might as well not have been here so far. Fair do's, Givet and Chimp have been good buys, but the majority have been disappointing so far.

As to mere survival being some huge achievement, I'll bet my house Williams has not budgeted on 17th place, so survival is not the only goal against which he should be measured. I honestly expected us to be up with Sunderland/Fulham and Stoke thus far and am disappointed we are not.

[LeChuck]

Because given his pedigree, I for one am not satisfied at the progress he has made after 11 months in the job. In my career I never got a free pass for 11 months in a new job. He is VASTLY more experienced than Ince yet, after almost a year, we are a mere 3 points better off than we were this time last year. If Ince was such a clown and Allardyce a top 8 manager, why has the improvement not manifested itself in points and places?

Ince wasn't doing dreadfully at this point last year - the rot began to set in around now and we barely picked up a point from this point until the end of his reign. Compare how many points they both managed after 17 games or however long it was that Ince was here.

You forgot to mention Di Santo by the way - but then again, in your haste to twist everything, I assume you just conveniently forgot him. Oh, and Jacobsen. And N'Zonzi.

[John]

I honestly expected us to be up with Sunderland/Fulham and Stoke thus far and am disappointed we are not.

Yeah, given that we have played Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea recently (all away from home), I would have expected us to pick up many more points too.

[mellison24]

Because given his pedigree, I for one am not satisfied at the progress he has made after 11 months in the job. In my career I never got a free pass for 11 months in a new job. He is VASTLY more experienced than Ince yet, after almost a year, we are a mere 3 points better off than we were this time last year. If Ince was such a clown and Allardyce a top 8 manager, why has the improvement not manifested itself in points and places?

Yes he had to sell RSC, but he hardly did anything last year, and Warnock - both for inflated fees - and, while some of the money went into the coffers, he did spend circa 12 million over the summer, which is surely a record summer spend in our history. His big money signing and his 'back me or sack me' signing have so far contributed nothing; his first signing, Diouf, has also contributed nothing this season, as has Van Heerden. 4 signings who might as well not have been here so far. Fair do's, Givet and Chimp have been good buys, but the majority have been disappointing so far.

As to mere survival being some huge achievement, I'll bet my house Williams has not budgeted on 17th place, so survival is not the only goal against which he should be measured. I honestly expected us to be up with Sunderland/Fulham and Stoke thus far and am disappointed we are not.

Firstly, consider that OTHER teams change as well as our own. Secondly, we have played considerably more difficult teams than under Ince at this stage. We have also had swine flu, and are blooding some younger players in. On your last point, we ALL know JW has budgeted for 13th, and we are on target to reach that. I really don't understand what your post is supposed to be conveying. This isn't a dig at you, I just find what you are saying a little confusing....

[Steve Moss]

Yeah, given that we have played Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea recently (all away from home), I would have expected us to pick up many more points too.

I think the Sam haters would still be on his case, even if he delivered a first place spot. We could be top of the table and they would still be complaining that the football wasn't pretty enough or some other nonsensical argument.

[Exiled in Toronto]

You forgot to mention Di Santo by the way - but then again, in your haste to twist everything, I assume you just conveniently forgot him. Oh, and Jacobsen. And N'Zonzi.

I did forget them, and here's why:

Di Santo - 1 goal by mid Nov

Jacobsen - now seemingly dropped behind Chimp

N'Zonzi - raw

Add to those:

Salgado - expensive joke signing

Kalanic - 6 million and not near the team

Van Heerden - Who he?

Diouf - expensive, useless embarrassment

As I said:

Givet - Excellent

Chimp - pretty good

Not a good return from nine signings in my opinion from a vastly experienced manager at this level.

Givet and Chimp have improved us; none of the rest would have got into the Souness or Hughes teams which surely has to be the expectation Allardyce is measured against given his CV.

So why all the excuses from everyone? Sam didn't need any excuses at Bolton, but now he apparently does.

Anyway, all this should be in the Allardyce thread. Sorry mods.

[jim mk2]

Because given his pedigree, I for one am not satisfied at the progress he has made after 11 months in the job. In my career I never got a free pass for 11 months in a new job. He is VASTLY more experienced than Ince yet, after almost a year, we are a mere 3 points better off than we were this time last year. If Ince was such a clown and Allardyce a top 8 manager, why has the improvement not manifested itself in points and places?

Free pass for 11 months ? Allardyce started his new job by saving the club from relegation (from which we would very likely never have been able to recover) and guided them into the last 8 of a cup competition while at the same time trying to rebuild an ageing and inadequate squad. If that's a free pass I'm an old-age pensioner.

Also, where we are now in the league compared to a year ago under Ince is irrelevant. Form and fortune goes up and down during the season and what IS important is where we finish in May.

Your continuing criticism of Allardyce is tiresome, repetitive and increasingly non-sensical. Please go away and hibernate for the Canadian winter.

[mellison24]

I did forget them, and here's why:

Di Santo - 1 goal by mid Nov

Jacobsen - now seemingly dropped behind Chimp

N'Zonzi - raw

Add to those:

Salgado - expensive joke signing

Kalanic - 6 million and not near the team

Van Heerden - Who he?

Diouf - expensive, useless embarrassment

As I said:

Givet - Excellent

Chimp - pretty good

Not a good return from nine signings in my opinion from a vastly experienced manager at this level.

Givet and Chimp have improved us; none of the rest would have got into the Souness or Hughes teams which surely has to be the expectation Allardyce is measured against given his CV.

So why all the excuses from everyone? Sam didn't need any excuses at Bolton, but now he apparently does.

Anyway, all this should be in the Allardyce thread. Sorry mods.

It's not 'excuses', it's 'a point of view based on facts'. Your views are purely opinion. Consider that:

DiSanto: A vital goal and puts the oppo defense under pressure, which has led to goals from Dunn and Roberts. Just as valuable (he also costs jack all, so dont see your problem there).

Jacobsen: getting sleepless nights with his new bairn.

N'Zonzi: Raw....but performing EXCELLENTLY.

Salgado: Strictly a marquee signing. Has admittedly done little, but Jacobsen has done very well at RB. Salgado will have the name to attract others to the club and will provide the Real Madrid connection that served Sam so well at Bolton.

Kalinic: Nowhere near the team, apart from being on the bench EVERY game, looking very good when he comes on, was a shining light when he came on against Chelsea and had a legitimate goal chalked off against ManUre.

Van Heerden: Was well documented that it will be January before he will be even close to ready. Was always a back-up signing.

Diouf: 1.5mil aint expensive as he gave us the spark needed for last season's save, but unfortunately hasn't been reproduced this year, but nobody would have predicted that.

[Eddie]

Free pass for 11 months ? Allardyce started his new job by saving the club from relegation (from which we would very likely never have been able to recover) and guided them into the last 8 of a cup competition while at the same time trying to rebuild an ageing and inadequate squad. If that's a free pass I'm an old-age pensioner.

Also, where we are now in the league compared to a year ago under Ince is irrelevant. Form and fortune goes up and down during the season and what IS important is where we finish in May.

Your continuing criticism of Allardyce is tiresome, repetitive and increasingly non-sensical. Please go away and hibernate for the Canadian winter.

The problem I have with this entire debate is that, for the most part, the pro-Allardyce (and a good few of the "anti"-Allardyce as well) tend to see things only one way.

He's made some good signings: Chimbonda has done his job, N'Zonzi is doing pretty well, Jacobsen has done well, Di Santo has done well and really as much as can be expected seeing as he's somewhat handicapped by our formation and Givet has also been pretty reliable. Having said that, at this point Kalinic looks like a long-term project and I'm not sure if that is what we all expected for 6 million and Salgado seems a total waste. In other words, his two most expensive signings are questionable at this point and even Diouf blows hot and cold too much for a premier league player earning quite a bit.

I can understand why people look at that as more positive and also why more negative, although personally I am fairly happy with the transfer dealings so far (although I think this January and Summer will prove to be the big tests and the defining period of the Allardyce era).

Tactics wise this season I struggle to see why almost anyone can see how we're playing as a good thing. For the most part the football itself has been terrible. We've picked up some vital home wins in recent times, but, with the exception of Villa, those have all been against struggling and/or weak sides. We've been embarrassed on our travels on several occasions and we still remain uncomfortably close to the relegation zone. Again, this coming month or two will be the defining period form wise for Allardyce. In the upcoming matches he has the chance to open up the football (surely he must at least a little bit?) and also pick up wins to take us away from relegation and make our season about looking up rather than looking down.

Anyone who is totally dismissive of either the positive or negative view is either biased or simple in my view. Let's face it, the majority on here were expecting (or at least hoping) for better both form and style wise. When I was voicing concerns over how we were playing towards the end of last season most were saying that the final few months were a gimmie and that the test would be now, yet many are now pushing that judgment date further and further back.

At some point Allardyce has to be judged purely on how the team is performing NOW. I think almost everyone is willing to give him time on this, but to just spout Bolton statistics or harp back to Ince does us no favours. The reality is that he's signed several players, enough that this can now be called "his" squad, he's spent a reasonable amount, enough that finances shouldn't be the only excuse (anyone saying otherwise should then try to justify why Christmas is fast approaching and we have 6 million in transfer fees and probably 60-70k a week in wages (that's Kalinic and Salgado combined and I'm not even considering Elrio whats-his-face) on the bench (and sometimes not even that).

The man deserves time, but he also deserves, or at least certainly shouldn't be immune from, criticism. I didn't judge Souness or Hughes in their first season, but I judged them both in their second year and they both took over in equally difficult times. He's approaching a year in the job now and no one is calling for his head really, just asking for us not to all blindly accept what he does and just see him as "the expert". Those saying "no one else could do it" seem to ignore the fact that this club has been doing pretty well this decade and that we certainly aren't alone in terms of clubs punching above their financial weight. Of course others can do it, that doesn't mean that he CAN'T, but he isn't literally the Messiah and it is worrying that people think of him like that. If you ask me to name possible replacements it would have been pointless. Who would have named Souness? Who would have named Hughes? Who would have said Moyes with total confidence? Hodgson at Fulham to have been such a success? Even Coyle? Realistically, until they get their shot you never really know.

Again, I'm NOT calling for him to be fired, I just don't like that people who have any sort of criticism, even the slightest bit of doubt are simply dismissed as being Sam-haters.

That's my essay for the night.

[BuckyRover]

My sentiments exactly (short and sweet)

[mellison24]

My sentiments exactly (short and sweet)

Ditto. Eddie's started speaking sense lately! (Unlike myself )

[FourLaneBlue]

Because given his pedigree, I for one am not satisfied at the progress he has made after 11 months in the job.

Maybe but in eight years on this board and over the course of, now, four managers you - for one - have never been paticularly satisfied with any for long. You have been critical of all four which is fine but does show the need for patience at times with coaches, like Hughes, who have what it takes to progress. Ince was not going to be able to do that and had to go as we were a sinking ship.

We are currently in 14th and in the last 8 of the cup with a set of fixtures coming up where we can be looking to pick up points. During that time we have sold seen our players of the year for last two seasons depart in the summer.

What exactly would satisfy in terms of current position? Where exactly should we be to satisfy you?

[47er]

The problem I have with this entire debate is that, for the most part, the pro-Allardyce (and a good few of the "anti"-Allardyce as well) tend to see things only one way.

He's made some good signings: Chimbonda has done his job, N'Zonzi is doing pretty well, Jacobsen has done well, Di Santo has done well and really as much as can be expected seeing as he's somewhat handicapped by our formation and Givet has also been pretty reliable. Having said that, at this point Kalinic looks like a long-term project and I'm not sure if that is what we all expected for 6 million and Salgado seems a total waste. In other words, his two most expensive signings are questionable at this point and even Diouf blows hot and cold too much for a premier league player earning quite a bit.

I can understand why people look at that as more positive and also why more negative, although personally I am fairly happy with the transfer dealings so far (although I think this January and Summer will prove to be the big tests and the defining period of the Allardyce era).

Tactics wise this season I struggle to see why almost anyone can see how we're playing as a good thing. For the most part the football itself has been terrible. We've picked up some vital home wins in recent times, but, with the exception of Villa, those have all been against struggling and/or weak sides. We've been embarrassed on our travels on several occasions and we still remain uncomfortably close to the relegation zone. Again, this coming month or two will be the defining period form wise for Allardyce. In the upcoming matches he has the chance to open up the football (surely he must at least a little bit?) and also pick up wins to take us away from relegation and make our season about looking up rather than looking down.

Anyone who is totally dismissive of either the positive or negative view is either biased or simple in my view. Let's face it, the majority on here were expecting (or at least hoping) for better both form and style wise. When I was voicing concerns over how we were playing towards the end of last season most were saying that the final few months were a gimmie and that the test would be now, yet many are now pushing that judgment date further and further back.

At some point Allardyce has to be judged purely on how the team is performing NOW. I think almost everyone is willing to give him time on this, but to just spout Bolton statistics or harp back to Ince does us no favours. The reality is that he's signed several players, enough that this can now be called "his" squad, he's spent a reasonable amount, enough that finances shouldn't be the only excuse (anyone saying otherwise should then try to justify why Christmas is fast approaching and we have 6 million in transfer fees and probably 60-70k a week in wages (that's Kalinic and Salgado combined and I'm not even considering Elrio whats-his-face) on the bench (and sometimes not even that).

The man deserves time, but he also deserves, or at least certainly shouldn't be immune from, criticism. I didn't judge Souness or Hughes in their first season, but I judged them both in their second year and they both took over in equally difficult times. He's approaching a year in the job now and no one is calling for his head really, just asking for us not to all blindly accept what he does and just see him as "the expert". Those saying "no one else could do it" seem to ignore the fact that this club has been doing pretty well this decade and that we certainly aren't alone in terms of clubs punching above their financial weight. Of course others can do it, that doesn't mean that he CAN'T, but he isn't literally the Messiah and it is worrying that people think of him like that. If you ask me to name possible replacements it would have been pointless. Who would have named Souness? Who would have named Hughes? Who would have said Moyes with total confidence? Hodgson at Fulham to have been such a success? Even Coyle? Realistically, until they get their shot you never really know.

Again, I'm NOT calling for him to be fired, I just don't like that people who have any sort of criticism, even the slightest bit of doubt are simply dismissed as being Sam-haters.

That's my essay for the night.

But you are anti-Allerdyce and you do see things one way.This is a belated attempt to appear even-handed. Remember your post a few weeks ago where you stated that Allardyce had not progressed the club at all and that you "honestly preferred Ince"? You were judging him then alright weren't you?

[USABlue]

I echo EiT's sentiments. Love the statement:- "Di Santo has done well and really as much as can be expected seeing as he's somewhat handicapped by our formation" There's irony there somewhere, Imean why would an expert sign a player and then handicap him playing him in a formation that said expert set up??. Anyway I hope Sam does better, but Exiled's questions are valid, boy are we hard to watch when I've seen us. I expect better.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Maybe but in eight years on this board and over the course of, now, four managers you - for one - have never been paticularly satisfied with any for long. You have been critical of all four which is fine but does show the need for patience at times with coaches, like Hughes, who have what it takes to progress. Ince was not going to be able to do that and had to go as we were a sinking ship.

We are currently in 14th and in the last 8 of the cup with a set of fixtures coming up where we can be looking to pick up points. During that time we have sold seen our players of the year for last two seasons depart in the summer.

What exactly would satisfy in terms of current position? Where exactly should we be to satisfy you?

I said already - at least on par with Sunderland, Stoke and Fulham - or is that too much to hope for?

I now get every league game in full on tv - something I would have killed for in past years - and yet this season more often than not I have found myself only half watching because it is just so damned dull. I have enjoyed the Burnley game, half of the wolves game, half of the Pompey game and half of the Arsenal game; the rest has been pap. I can only recall one bit of skill that roused me from my apathy - Di Santo's lay-off for Dunn against Burnley. I can't remember an opposition goalie making any good saves; I can't recall any sweeping moves.

I now count it as an achievement if we don't concede within 5 mins. If we are winning at half time, I know the 2nd half will be crap. If go 2 goals down, I know we will give up. I could not believe it when he took Dunn off at 4-2 against the Arse - we were still in that game and he gave up.

I want us to get better, not settle for being worse.

what IS important is where we finish in May.

Please go away and hibernate for the Canadian winter.

Sounds like you are the one who should go into hibernation. Personally, I'd prefer to stay awake and watch some good footy in the meantime, but you may well have the better plan.

[jim mk2]

Sounds like you are the one who should go into hibernation. Personally, I'd prefer to stay awake and watch some good footy in the meantime, but you may well have the better plan.

My plan is to go down to Ewood and support the team, not bellyache from 3,000 miles away.

Next.

[FourLaneBlue]

I said already - at least on par with Sunderland, Stoke and Fulham - or is that too much to hope for?

Well..two points behind Fulham. Three and four behind Sunderland and Stoke respectively with a game in hand on each. So...we are not far off despite being complete chumps away. With an easier fixture schedule coming up...we seem to be in line with that "hope"...ot at least not too far off. So what need is there for excuses? None at all.

I want us to get better, not settle for being worse.

Of course. We all do. We seem to be getting better. Slowly but surely. Bit by bit. We will keep taking steps backward as well as forward on the way. Compared to the situation that Ince left however...we have far more cause for optimism.

[Eddie]

But you are anti-Allerdyce and you do see things one way.This is a belated attempt to appear even-handed. Remember your post a few weeks ago where you stated that Allardyce had not progressed the club at all and that you "honestly preferred Ince"? You were judging him then alright weren't you?

I'm not anti-Allarydce, I'm just not drinking the kool-aid.

I still think at that moment in time there was little difference between Allardyce and Ince. The game against Portsmouth has the potential to be the turning point and our next few games will decide if the club really has progressed under Allardyce.

I judge him on a daily basis, I hope that everyone does; that is what we as fans are supposed to do.

[S15]

Ditto. Eddie's started speaking sense lately! (Unlike myself )

No you're turning into a rather annoying Hughesy mk2 with your sickeningly bias opinion and pathetic twisting of reality to make all things pro Rovers.

[ABBEY]

I think the Sam haters would still be on his case, even if he delivered a first place spot. We could be top of the table and they would still be complaining that the football wasn't pretty enough or some other nonsensical argument.

there's more chance of the pope shagging bin laden on the penalty spot on sunday than sam deliverong top spot.